Well put, Jim. I was there as well. Looking back now, I feel I was kind of naive in not looking more closely at what the organisers were calling for.

Apologies Jim, but I’ve been reading this kind of waffle for quite some time and I’m out of patience with it.

That was not an “I agree with George Galloway about everything march”, it was an anti-war march. As in, “let’s not have this war, because it’s being sold by proven liars and it’s going to get very large numbers of people killed.” I see no reason why anybody who held that opinion should have been made to demonstrate their deep humanitarianism to Jim Denham and his posse of disapproving pals by jumping through a series of hoops held ever higher and higher, until they become impossible to reach with a stepladder.

And let’s be blunt – had the perfect, idealist march in support of Iraqi democrats materialised, featuring strident opposition to Georges Bush and Galloway, a million clauses of condemnation denouncing the evils of Ba’athism, Islamism and god knows what else, while singing pious hosannas to the virtues of Iraqi socialsts… Well, a certain very vocal section of the left would’ve found a thousand other reasons to support the war, urinate noisily on anyone opposing it, and you would still be putting up this post ticking us all off today.

I’ve seen some variation on the above Oooh, I cannot sully my immaculate soul by agreeing on one major point of policy with somebody whose sundry opinions I object to puff piece most days for more than five years, and it’s just as self-absorbed, self-serving and histrionic as it was the first time I saw it.

P.S. I would also like to note that, had the miraculous, flawless campaign of which you would have approved actually materialised, the war would still have gone ahead because a) the PM had already agreed to it and b) the Americans were going in anyway. All of which reduces your argument, in terms of actual, real world effect, to a form of highly specialised concern trolling.

Cheers, FR

It was a waste of time, but it was a waste of time because, as FR says, the PM had already made his mind up and like it or lump it that’s the way government works. I wouldn’t say it was a complete waste of time though, if Gordon Brown ever devolves the power of making such decisions to Parliament, but let’s be honest here…the march and the protest had no power because what were people really going to do? Were they going to vote Labour out in 2005 only to put in a party that also agreed with going to war as well as running contrary to immigration policy and social policy that those in the march would most be in tune with?

The problem with the march was that politics in this country were, and still are, set up for a two party horse race, and neither of them being in power would change the situation with going to war after America declared it. The people had their chance to show the governments what they thought about the war and they decided that come polling day Labour are the lesser of two evils, and Liberal Democrats aren’t worth betting on. That’s the unfortunate truth of it all.

No, it wasn’t a waste of time.

First (and this is, admittedly, a hypothetical) we may have prevented similarly ill-planned wars in Syria and Iran too.

Second (and this is not a hypothetical) it eroded the Blair government’s political capital. If he had chosen not to go to war, or indeed been more honest about his motivations, Blair might well still be our Prime Minister. Politicians present and future will heed this lesson.

I think the bigger problem is that it energised a lot of people, who then became disillusioned when they felt their voice was being ignored. It saps any faith in the political system. I still don’t regret going though. And I think FR also makes a pertinent point. Some people will always look for excuses to pick out the nutters and condemn everyone on that basis.

4. Blair prime minister or not, have you not seen what they’ve been doing with an even smaller majority under brown!? I believe that it is a bit naive to believe this has changed anything, because what lesson was actually learnt? Yes Blair ended up perhaps leaving before he wanted to, but then that was as much to do with internal politics as it was to do with public pressure, probably more so in fact…and a government that did this ended up in power with a majority of the house again even if it was diminished. There’s no lesson here other than that you can go to war, millions will march against it, and you will still stay in power.

Well, a bit over the top, maybe, but the time for listening politely to this kind of vainglorious nonsense is long past.

Because what is the point of this piece? It seems to be a) We should be ashamed we didn’t tell that nasty man Galloway to go away before we turned Iraq into a murderous failed state and b) We should’ve said nice things about Iraqi socialists before we started dropping bombs on their houses.

A wasted opportunity? An opportunity for what? For us to have held a demonstration more to your refined tastes before we launched a blundering experiment in democratisation and accidentally plunged an entire nation into chaos?

This is basically “How To Demonstrate” for people considerably more worried about being photographed standing near somebody whose opinions they don’t like than they are about events occurring in reality.

This kind of solemn, preening guff has been all over lefty blogs for years and I have no idea why anybody gives it any credence at all. If somebody came by my house and ordered me mourn the deep shame of the left for demonstrating against this sorry mess, they’d be out the door with my boot up their arse in five seconds flat.

I was on the demo, would go again if it were called today. However I don’t actually think there’s a contradiction between saying that and criticising some of the politics involved. Furthermore I don’t think it’s “preening guff” to criticise George Galloway or the Muslim Brotherhood. Or maybe I’m just being a choosy, exclusivist snob by finding fault in such fine progressive voices…

George Galloway is held in contempt by 99.9999% of those people who know who he is.
Therefore not the best person to be seen as the “leader” of the anti-war protest, and no doubt some (maybe much) support was lost at the point when support was most needed.
Rodent – did the BNP not oppose the war too? Would you have marched under their leadership?!

maybe I’m just being a choosy, exclusivist snob by finding fault in such fine progressive voices…

I suppose it rather depends on whether your greatest regret about the pre-war period is that we utterly failed to stop British participation in this horrendous, ongoing debacle, or that you had to stand near some people whose opinions you don’t like.

I’ll restate this, because it really is critical – we’re talking about an Anti-war march. The We agree with George Galloway marches were far less well-attended, I gather, largely due to the repellent personality and dodgy views of the organiser.

Were this 2003, I might be inclined to listen to this precious preaching. Had the marches successfully kept us out, or had Iraq turned into Geneva rather than Mogadishu, I’d give it some serious thought. Most especially, had the pro-war left not already spent five years banging away at this annoying bongo like the fucking Energizer Bunny, while paying no attention whatsoever to events in the real world… I might even be inclined to agree.

Sadly, none of the above is true. The argument we have in the post is precisely this one – we should feel shame because we did not organise the perfect anti-war protests that exist, pure and virginal, in the mind of Jim Denham and his mates, before the invasion went ahead regardless.

Well, until Jim’s perfect world hoves into view, I imagine most people will just have to make do with playing the hands fate deals them, much as they always have.

did the BNP not oppose the war too? Would you have marched under their leadership?!

Come, now – I can’t stand Galloway or his friends, but that doesn’t mean I’m swallowing Nick Cohen’s God-awful bum-belch of a book whole. Nor do I have much respect for the following rusty old saws – “You allowed yourself to be led!”, “Why do you not condemn?” or “You agree with (x), ergo you are just like (x)!” – since I’m not a member of a sixth-form debating society.

Here’s an opinion poll from way back:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/18/politics.iraq

OK, it’s just one poll, but the majority polled were against the war. The folk that marched were simply the most motivated. Sadly, it made no difference. I think I became quite a lot more cynical after that.

I think a lot of us did. At the time and arguably still now I had a certain level of support for the war, but the fact that so many people could make their voices heard and still be ignored should make anyone cynical.