What nonsense. The author is pretending that anything with a mostly white audience is a ‘white’ organisation. This clearly isn’t true. There are thousands of different ethnic-based organisations in Britain, many of them tax-payer funded. There isn’t a single one specifically for white people that isn’t decried as racist, and none of them receive government funding.

Many British institution are overwhelmingly white because they were built by and for white people. It’s not because they set out to be racially exclusive.

Radio 3 & 4 have a mostly white audience. But they will never describe themselves as existing solely for white people, because they aren’t. Leftist groups routinely attack predominantly white organisations for not ‘reflecting’ society’ enough, but no-one attacks ethnic groups for not being ‘diverse’ enough.

The BBC Asian Network is run by Asians to cater for Asian interests. Again, there is no white equivalent.

“The BBC World Service provided a Polish language service…”
That’s a Polish LANGUAGE service – not a service that focuses solely on white Poles.

“and as for ‘White History Month’, well I think you’ll find that that’s every month, the BBC Website’s History section lists 23 programmes (including repeats) over the next week alone, none of which is particularly ‘Black’ in terms of content.”
Another deliberate distortion. Just because the content is overwhelmingly white it doesn’t restrict itself to white people. Britain’s history is overwhelmingly white – why would you expect it to be black in content?

Do you think schoolteachers ever inform children when something’s ‘white history’? Outside of the slave trade and empire, I doubt it. But black kids are encouraged to identify with their racial history. They are encouraged to see themselves as different to their white classmates, who have no sense of racial identity other than maybe a negative one. This is just how the Left want it.

If something is so obviously white that there’s no need to describe it as such, then why the need to describe anything specifically as black? Why do black kids need to be racially conscious, but not white kids?

“So is my local ASDA bowing to ‘political correctness’, ?”
False comparison. ASDA is a private company – they can sell whatever they like to whomever they like.

If you genuinely believe that the BBC have material specifically for white people, then let’s label it as such and clear up the confusion. Let’s call it BBC ‘White Radio’, or ‘White History TIme’. Would that be ok with you? I doubt it because deep down you know there’s no such thing as a ‘white’ ethnocentric group in the BBC, and you don’t want there to be one.

When the Left talk about multiculturalism, they mean really redistributing white-based organisations and lands to ‘oppressed’ non-whites. If Britain was a TRULY ‘multicultural’ society then there would be white organisations for white people, just like there are for everyone else. But white racial consciousness is the last thing the Left want, despite all their calls for ‘racial equality’.

I worked with a woman who once complained that a British city she had recently visited was very dull and uninteresting because it was ‘too ethnically homogeneous’ (i.e white). When I asked why she didn’t voice any similar complaints about her recent trip to Vietnam she couldn’t respond.

The Left don’t really care about multiculturalism or even ‘diversity’. If they did, they’d push for it in non-white countries. They’d complain that Thailand was lacking in Africans, or that there weren’t enough Chinese people in Yemen. When the Left talk about diversity, what they really want is the replacement of whiteness.

As far as I’m aware there isn’t a single organisation in the UK whose membership or area of interest is exclusively for the [white] indigenous population.

I’d like to challenge you to prove me wrong.

By the way, just because the membership of an organisation might just happen to be entirely indigenous, doesn’t mean that membership by people of other ethnic groups is precluded; what I need you to find is any group/organisation/charity where membership is legally or constitutionally restricted to indigenous people.

Good luck. You’ll need it.

@ the two first comments – I notice you assume that BBC Asian network is for ‘Asian’ people only. Why? I’m as White British heterosexual male as they come and I regularly listen to it because, guess what, I like the music! Some of the other stuff’s not too bad either.

I really can’t see what your problem is here. The BBC has many niche services on its digital channels – Radio 6 for non-classical musos, for example – so why not one broadly aimed at people with sub-continental origins (and of course anyone else who wants to listen)? Asian isn’t even an ethnic or racial category, its simply a convenient label for a very broad range of, for example, cultural backgrounds.

You will not get “White News” – content doesn’t need a silly prefix to be overwhelmingly white and usually male. A vast majority of content appeals to the majority population: who are white. Radio Two/Three/Four and a majority of the output on the BBC television service appeals to a White audience – otherwise they wouldn’t watch!

The BBC also appeals directly to local communities through local television, radio, and internet coverage. This again, is colour blind – yet the audience profile is, again, overwhelmingly white and the presenters/content reflect this.

And so, to involve a community with its own unique music and culture – who let’s not forget pay taxes, the BBC has some Asian and Black output, which seeks to address the institutionalised bias that leans – somewhat naturally – towards the native creed.

Now, I don’t actually agree with content aimed at a specific ethnic community. I think the BBC is already far too big, and much of its content would be happily produced by private enterprises – there is no shortage of entrepreneurial spirit in the Asian community!

I don’t see a role for the government (and by extension the BBC) in seeking to address a perceived/real bias. I don’t think *political* multiculturalism works – although I see no-reason why a multi-cultural society can’t work.

Back to the comments above. They convey the usual precious sensibilities. Let’s get one-thing straight, the dominant white population are not under siege. They’re dominant. There doesn’t need to be a “white” TV channel. White culture is already massively over-represented.

And by the way, there is no ethnic test before you can tune into Asian networks, so Lee’s membership-based point is redundant.

Where is the BBC White Male Middle Class Heterosexual English Network

This reminds me a bit of a question I asked my dad when I was a kid – If there’s a Father’s Day and a Mother’s Day, why isn’t there a Children’s Day?

I’m sure you can imagine how he responded.

@AcidBen: “@ the two first comments – I notice you assume that BBC Asian network is for ‘Asian’ people only. Why? I’m as White British heterosexual male as they come and I regularly listen to it because, guess what, I like the music! Some of the other stuff’s not too bad either.”
You’re missing the point AcidBen. The station is exclusively non-white and is aimed at non-whites. Try getting a job at the Asian Network.

@Aaron Heath: “You will not get “White News” – content doesn’t need a silly prefix to be overwhelmingly white and usually male.”
The point is that although the audience is mostly white, the news is NOT specifically described as being for white people. There is a big difference, as those institutions that are overwhelmingly white are being encouraged to ‘encourage’ non white participation. They are seen as a ‘problem’ needing a cure, whereas ethnic organisations are under no pressure to change.

“Let’s get one-thing straight, the dominant white population are not under siege. They’re dominant. There doesn’t need to be a “white” TV channel. White culture is already massively over-represented.”
They ARE under siege. Most white people have no power at all. White people are close to minority status in most big cities and face being a national minority by the end of the century. White corporations are being pressured to surrender top jobs to minorities when the British were assured they were here to do the menial jobs. Does this sound like white dominance? The white politicians aren’t the least bit interested in the white population – they don’t ‘represent’ them.

And how can white culture be described as ‘massively over-represented’ in a traditionally white country? Britain has thousands of years of white culture compared with a few decades of small, non-white cultural input. Black and Asian people are vastly over represented as news readers and reporters. Actually the BBC over-represents minorities wherever it can, and even sees fit to regularly insert them in period dramas when the number of non-white people back then was minuscule.

And who are you to say that there doesn’t ‘need’ to be white TV channel? Why can’t white people decide? What about a White radio station in white minority Leicester or soon to be white minority London?

And who are you to say that there doesn’t ‘need’ to be white TV channel? Why can’t white people decide? What about a White radio station in white minority Leicester or soon to be white minority London? ~ James

I’m a tax payer. Much like I don’t want to see an Asian channel paid for out of the public purse. If it’s private enterprise, then fair enough.

As for a white channel. Pay for it yourself. People should be free to associate and disassociate with whoever they please. I have no time for racism, and I wouldn’t frequent somewhere where racism exists, but I can’t control what people think – neither would I want to.

White corporations are being pressured to surrender top jobs to minorities when the British were assured they were here to do the menial jobs.

Having worked in business all my life, including running my own businesses, I have never heard such twaddle. Legislation seeks to ensure I don’t discriminate when hiring or disciplining, but this is a waste of everyone’s time. If I wanted to, I could. There is no conspiracy against white people.

And how can white culture be described as ‘massively over-represented’ in a traditionally white country?

Okay, some hyperbole there, but white soaps – with token asians/blacks seem to be doing well. White sitcoms dominate the airwaves etc. I don’t think whites are doing so badly.

I listen to Asian Network on occasion too.

Those who are calling for a white radio station, what would you play on it? There is no homogenous white culture. For instance, music. I, personally, like to listen to Iron Maiden. My aunt is a big Mozart girl. My mum likes Cliff Richard and my brother is into dance music. We’re all white, and most of those fanbases are predominantly (although not wholly) white, and there is very little overlap among the four.

Which would you choose for a white radio station? Would you try to ban black people from applying for jobs or listening to it?

There is absolutely no gap in the market for a “white” radio station that isn’t already filled by existing radio stations. BBC Asian network means that there isn’t a gap in the market for an Asian one either.

As for the increasingly hysterical denials of white privilege, they remind me of the sort of blokes who complain that it’s a woman’s world now that we’re allowed to vote and have jobs and things. It’s prompted by fear of loss of privilege and it is very very very sad.

@ Aaron Heath: “Having worked in business all my life, including running my own businesses, I have never heard such twaddle.”
Maybe not so much in the private sector, but in public it is certainly the case.

@Jennie: “Those who are calling for a white radio station, what would you play on it? There is no homogeneous white culture.”
No one said there was. Are you suggesting there’s an homogeneous Asian culture? Why the double standard?

“Which would you choose for a white radio station? Would you try to ban black people from applying for jobs or listening to it?”
Do you interrogate ethnic broadcasters with these stupid questions too?
I’d choose white music and relate issues mostly relating to white people from the British Isles (it doesn’t just have to all be about music), although I’m sure there’d be occasion to include white news and culture from elsewhere. As for ‘banning’ black people from applying for jobs there, I don’t know. Do the numerous ethnic groups and broadcasters ban white people? And why on earth would I consider banning black people from listening to it?

Seriously, what is your problem with white racial awareness? I doubt you’d consider interrogating non-white enterprises in this hostile way.

“There is absolutely no gap in the market for a “white” radio station that isn’t already filled by existing radio stations. BBC Asian network means that there isn’t a gap in the market for an Asian one either.”
Says who? You? There’s not a single station that operates solely for white people. Not one. Because white culture is ‘smeared’ across various media outlets, it doesn’t mean it can’t be centralized in a specifically white platform. The BBC has admitted to being left wing in attitude and no newspaper, not even the Daily Mail, is supportive of white people. There is no-one to speak up when whites are slandered. Why are you so resistant to a white media outlet? Who was reporting the racist assaults against whites until Kris Donald’s murder? Not the BBC or Asian Network. Since when has there been a ‘gap’ in the Asian market anyway? Doesn’t Asia have its own media? Surely Asian channels can be accessed via satellite these days or Internet. What does Asia have to do with Britain?

“As for the increasingly hysterical denials of white privilege, they remind me of the sort of blokes who complain that it’s a woman’s world now that we’re allowed to vote and have jobs and things. It’s prompted by fear of loss of privilege and it is very very very sad.”
Since when has it been ‘privilege’ to be successful? White people built Britain and they losing what belongs to them. Watching its various institutions being handed over to people with no ancestral entitlement is worse than “very very very sad”, it’s disgraceful. White people weren’t consulted as to the mass immigration of recent decades. They are essentially being replaced in the institutions they constructed.

James: Radio 3 & 4 have a mostly white audience. But they will never describe themselves as existing solely for white people, because they aren’t.

First, you’ll have to point out how ‘white music’ or ‘white culture’ is not being catered for.

Secondly, the Asian Network is not FOR Asian people… it is ABOUT Asian culture. There’s a difference, because about 10% of its audience, maybe more I think, is non-Asian. Similarly, 1Xtra is about ‘black music’ but its not FOR black people.

White people built Britain and they losing what belongs to them.

How so? Where’s the evidence?

They are essentially being replaced in the institutions they constructed.

Given that the powerful institutions in this country are still run overwhelmingly by middle-aged white men, I think you’ve got a chip on your shoulder backed by no evidence.

@Sunny Hundal: “First, you’ll have to point out how ‘white music’ or ‘white culture’ is not being catered for.”
Why do people like you expect white people to have to justify their actions? Do Asian people explain their actions to white folks before they do anything? Why can’t white people just have their own media anyway? Are you suggesting that black music is underrepresented for their numbers?

Anyhow, like I said, there is no single outlet just for white culture. Practically every TV show has non-white faces on it. If you REALLY think there is a white culture network, then let’s officially call it white so everyone can see it. You said 90% of the Asian Network audience is Asian. That sounds like an Asian station to me. The BBC describes the Asian Network as also “…covering British Asian issues.” No such station covers white issues for white interests that looks out for white people’s interests. A white station could be listened to by anyone who wanted to, just like Asian Network.

Besides, there are many black institutions that are solely about looking about black people. There are none for whites, so they can be slandered and vilified with no-one to defend them.

Anyhow, why can’t black or Asian culture be represented solely in the general media? Why the special treatment? Aren’t we all British these days?

“White people built Britain and they losing what belongs to them.
How so? Where’s the evidence?”

Are you blind? The evidence is the vast areas of Britain’s towns and cities that are now inhabited by non-white ghettos. White people are shortly (if not already) minorities in Britain’s major cities. Would you not agree that London’s East End white culture has been destroyed by immigration? How about losing their freedom of thought via the notorious ‘hate speech’ laws? How about the introduction of Sharia law? How far will THAT go in the next couple of decades?

“Given that the powerful institutions in this country are still run overwhelmingly by middle-aged white men, I think you’ve got a chip on your shoulder backed by no evidence.”
For how much longer? You would say that because you stand to lose nothing. As I pointed out before, the elite ‘middle-aged white men’ do not represent Britain’s whites, anymore than Mugabe represents black Zimbabweans. If they represented whites then there would have been much stricter immigration. They represent only themselves. Plans are even underway to reserve certain parliamentary seats for black people. As non-whites grow in numbers, there will be increasing pressure for whites to surrender their ‘powerful institutions’, and I’m sure you can’t wait for that moment.

Is Britain an equal ‘multicultural’ society or not? If it truly is, then whites deserve their own identity. If not, then we don’t have a multicultural society.

Oh dear oh dear.

Many years ago (well, not that many, but a few) I was involved in scrapping the positions of ‘equal opportunities (male)’ and ‘equal opportunities (female)’ and replacing those two positions with women’s, anti-racism, disabilities and LGBT officers at my students’ union.

The debate was of pretty low quality and it seems like a lot of the same, tired arguments are being brought out again here. Some are bizarre – James 1 says “ASDA is a private company – they can sell whatever they like to whomever they like” which ignores the fact that private companies are still bound by anti-discrimination legislation.

James @ 6 said:
“They ARE under siege. Most white people have no power at all.” Unfortunately, you don’t explain what you mean by ‘siege’, and so it’s hard to assign any meaning to that sentence. The next sentence, suprisingly, I agree with; all I would remove from the sentence is the word ‘white’ – most people have no power at all. Just because a given subset has a negative characteristic does not mean that the rest do not or that it is the fault of any other group.

James @ 6 said:
“White people are close to minority status in most big cities and face being a national minority by the end of the century.”

Really? The 2001 census gave two districts – Newham and Brent, both in London – that were not majority white. There are no districts in the UK where whites are not the largest ethnic group. In only twenty-one of the three hundred and fifty-four districts are whites less than three-quarters of the population. Only four of those twenty-one are outside London. At the other end of the scale, 45 districts are more than 99% white. Two hundred and ninety-five are more than 90% white.

“White corporations are being pressured to surrender top jobs to minorities when the British were assured they were here to do the menial jobs.”

No, they are not. That provides as much evidence as you provided. Here’s some evidence in opposition to your assertion: http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file13427.pdf, which refers back to 2004 and says that 2.3% of all FTSE directors came from an ethnic minority. 19 companies had an ethnic minority director. At the last census, 92.2% of people were white (British, Irish or other).

“Does this sound like white dominance?”

Actually, yes. That’s a bad thing – I don’t want anyone to dominate or be dominated. Unless it’s between consenting adults and there’s PVC involved.

“The white politicians aren’t the least bit interested in the white population – they don’t ‘represent’ them.”

Again, that’s a fiat, and I refer you to my earlier point about this not necessarily being anything to do with ethnicity. It also, given that you seem to be saying that politicians are self-interested, counter-intuitive.

“And how can white culture be described as ‘massively over-represented’ in a traditionally white country?”

The country’s changed. You’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

“Britain has thousands of years of white culture compared with a few decades of small, non-white cultural input.”

Given that Great Britain did not exist before 1707 and that there was a long history of internecine warfare between Scots, English, Welsh, Irish, Catholic, Protestant, Angle, Viking, Jute, Dane and Roman, that seems like a mistaken conception. Equally, the Jews first arrived in the UK (in numbers) in 1070 at the behest of William of Normandy. He was one of the first foreigners to be monarch over England. I’ll let you look up the rest. Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha introduced the Xmas tree, though.

The clincher, though, is from James 1 again:

“Many British institution are overwhelmingly white because they were built by and for white people. It’s not because they set out to be racially exclusive”

Sure, although I am worried by your assertion of primary affiliation as racial. More importantly, just because they didn’t set out to be racially exclusive didn’t mean they ended up being racially exclusive to some degree.

xD.

It’s all gone a bit “Fear of a Black Planet” in the comments. According to the last census in 2001, 92% of the population of the UK class themselves as white. Well on the way to minority status, clearly…

On the post, I wonder what Blaney would make of the BBC’s involvement in the forthcoming (Scottish) Gaelic Digital Service. Cultural apartheid?

I’d say that Blaney doesn’t understand democracy very well. In particular, he appears to be completely unaware of the dangers of the “tyranny of the majority”. As unity says, what underpins Blaney’s remarks apprears to be a desire to impose a uniform monoculture (as approved by him) on the population. It’s a singularly un-British notion.

Funny how Blaney’s comments have attracted a nutter defending them, basically regurgitating the BNP’s scare-mongering headlines.

Of course Radio 3 is a station which specialises in “white” culture because it specialises in western european classical music – albeit with the now compulsory nod to “world” music.
However I would hope that most people think of it simply as great global culture, not as “white” culture. It’s too good for that, if you see what I mean.

So Asian Network specialises in whatever aspects of Asian culture it does…I have not listened to it. But it does not bother me that it exists, other than possibly being a little patronising, especially that slightly fat guy repeatedly shouting whatever he is shouting into the microphone on the BBC TV advert for it…what is he shouting?
That simply puts me off. Perhaps it is meant to.

The recruitment issue is interesting.
If I saw/heard a non-white presenter on R3 I would think (if anything) – excellent.
If I saw/heard a white presenter on (say) some rap channel I would think – sad git.
Why is that?

“James 1 says “ASDA is a private company – they can sell whatever they like to whomever they like” which ignores the fact that private companies are still bound by anti-discrimination legislation.”
ASDA can sell anything they like to any market they choose? What part of that can’t you understand? Someone was comparing the BBC with ASDA and I pointed out that one was a private company while the other wasn’t.

“2.3% of all FTSE directors came from an ethnic minority. 19 companies had an ethnic minority director. At the last census, 92.2% of people were white”
I couldn’t open the file so I assume it said that white corporations weren’t being pressured. Is that actually what it said? I’m not talking about the ‘success’ of that pressuring. Besides, most directors are middle aged – ethnic people are a much younger demographic than whites, and were brought in to do menial jobs (supposedly) so the stats are bogus.

2001 census? Things have changed a lot in the last seven years or didn’t you notice? Don’t patronise me – it’s not present population that matters – it’s birth rate. Even the leftie Grauniad mentioned Britain’s future back in 2000. Since then there have been numerous mentions of whites becoming a minority, especially of the major cities. Bear in mind that many studies can mean anyone caucasoid, including middle easterners, so native whites will be a minority long before this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/sep/03/race.world1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7215624.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/leicester-to-be-first-city-where-white-people-are-minority-401968.html

“Unfortunately, you don’t explain what you mean by ’siege’, and so it’s hard to assign any meaning to that sentence.”
You’d better ask Aaron Heath what it means – he didn’t explain it either when he sarcastically used the phrase against me. I just threw it back at him. You really should read previous posts before embarrassing yourself.

Oh, and your fellow traveler Aaron brought up ‘white domination’ too, not me. Do you enjoy a bit of humiliation in your PVC sessions?

It’s true that most people have no real power, but minorities have their own organised pressure groups – whites do not. The CRE (or what ever it calls itself now) is very pro-ethnic.

“Given that Great Britain did not exist before 1707 and that there was a long history of internecine warfare between Scots, English, Welsh, Irish, Catholic, Protestant, Angle, Viking, Jute, Dane and Roman,…. zzzzzzzzzzzzz”
Oh, is that the ‘nation of immigrants’ speech? Or is this the bit where you pretend not to know what I meant? And what’s the point of telling us about the small influx of white migrants from neighboring lands? They were all white, yes? You’re not honestly comparing them with post war immigration are you?

“The country’s changed. You’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto.”
Really? But before you were saying Britain was still glaringly white?

“I was involved in scrapping the positions of ‘equal opportunities (male)’ and ‘equal opportunities (female)’ and replacing those two positions with women’s, anti-racism, disabilities and LGBT officers at my students’ union.”
Really? That’s how you spent your time at university? Poor ba$stard.

@Garry: “According to the last census in 2001, 92% of the population of the UK class themselves as white. Well on the way to minority status, clearly…”
Yes, it is clear actually. It’s all about birthrate (see previous posting).

“On the post, I wonder what Blaney would make of the BBC’s involvement in the forthcoming (Scottish) Gaelic Digital Service. Cultural apartheid?”
Oh, is it going to be a white, ethnocentric service? Hell no.

@chrisc: “However I would hope that most people think of it simply as great global culture, not as “white” culture.”
Yes, just like all white inventions and scientific advancements are called ‘global’, which has the effect of detaching white people from anything perceived as ‘good’, unlike the patronising lists of ‘Black inventions’ and “Black culture” etc which say “You’re just as good as what they are”. Isn’t black music good enough to be seen as ‘global’?

“If I saw/heard a non-white presenter on R3 I would think (if anything) – excellent.
If I saw/heard a white presenter on (say) some rap channel I would think – sad git.
Why is that?”
Because, like many white liberals, you secretly hold white people to a higher standard than black people. That’s why inarticulate whites are sneered at, while inarticulate blacks are called ‘oppressed’. Notice how liberals aren’t quite as forgiving of Japanese or Israeli ‘mistakes’? That’s because liberals think that they’re smart enough to know better too.

Am I the only one wondering if James really does believe all this claptrap he spouts, or if he’s just trolling?

He’s certainly cemented in me the firm belief that On Liberty should be a set text in all schools…

No proper response then Jennie? Which ‘claptrap’ were you referring to?

Maybe you’re just trying to make yourself look clever by citing a book you were forced to read as a student.

Jennie, no, you’re not. I suspect it’s a bit of both. We could try to explain why it’s silly to argue that 92% of the population is an oppressed and under-represented minority but it’d be pointless.

And I agree about On Liberty. There also ought to be more emphasis on the teaching of critical thinking and rational argument rather than concentrating on rewarding people who can remember stuff. But that’s another topic.

James: “2001 census? Things have changed a lot in the last seven years or didn’t you notice?”

The world isn’t changing rapidly, and it certainly isn’t going to ever see “white’s” become a minority in our life time unless mass emigration of whites starts to take place alongside mass immigration of non-whites. The numbers are simply too small and different in their proportions to have changed by more than a few percent in almost a decade if at all. To make sure you understand, even taking in to account all births happening by mothers that were born outside the UK and assume they’re all non-white, and taking away the percentage of non-white’s in the UK, both of which would be vastly overstating the amount of non-white babies born…white births are still likely to outstrip the combined effects of immigration (again assuming they’re all non-white which is patently untrue), immigrant births and non-white citizen births by almost 3 to 2. And that is an ultimate worse case scenario that largely abandons reality!

The facts are, quite simply, that while “natives” will potentially become a minority depending on how you define “native” within 100 years, “whites” will not.

“And what’s the point of telling us about the small influx of white migrants from neighboring lands? They were all white, yes?”

Because perhaps skin colour has nothing to do with an “Asian” network either? Asians happen to be a different skin colour, but the network is about Asian Culture. The network is no different from starting a French network, Eastern European network or an American Network.

“That’s how you spent your time at university? Poor ba$stard.”

If he was anything like me he managed to both have fun, get drunk, expand horizons and make positive political change while at university. Perhaps some of us just have a little bit more initiative and ability. Perhaps you’d be interested in a “moaning old twat with low ability but high self-worth” network?

“Notice how liberals aren’t quite as forgiving of Japanese or Israeli ‘mistakes’? That’s because liberals think that they’re smart enough to know better too.”

I don’t know what you’re getting at with Japanese, but most liberals don’t forgive Israeli “mistakes” given that they’re very clearly not mistakes, and because they are the oppressors in the relationship between themselves and Palestine and/or Lebanon. And I don’t know what liberalism has to do with finding a white guy trying to sound cool and failing as being sad while also finding a black guy breaking in to a white dominated area as being good. It’s nothing to do with viewing non-whites as lesser people, it’s all to do with seeing white structures and institutions as being oppressive at worst or at best simply unequal in their methods and the routes towards them.

This all may be a little lofty for you to perhaps understand, or am I just casting aspersions on you as a person based on my simplistic view of your racist politics? 😉

“We could try to explain why it’s silly to argue that 92% of the population is an oppressed and under-represented minority but it’d be pointless.”

Yes, it’s pointless arguing with people silly enough to think blacks were somehow “oppressed” and “under-represented” in apartheid South Africa. How could they have been, when they were the vast majority of the population? No-one with any grasp of how politics works would think a country could ever be run except for the benefit of the largest group in it. And let’s not talk about black majority suffering under the fascist whites in Rhodesia, because a) They can’t have suffered, because they were the majority (see above); b) we liberals prefer to keep quiet about our role in liberating them to the joys of majority rule under kindly Uncle Bob. When South Africa goes the same way as Zimb, we’ll have to keep quiet about that too. Can’t have anyone judging our wise national policies on race against our international record, can we?

Yes, it’s pointless arguing with people silly enough to think blacks were somehow “oppressed” and “under-represented” in apartheid South Africa. How could they have been, when they were the vast majority of the population?

Let me get this straight. you’re comparing the situation of blacks in South Africa to whites in Britain? You really have lost the plot.

James isn’t trolling, he’s just part of the deluded BNP squad who have painted themselves as the powerless victims in a world where the nasty ethnics have taken over.

Blaney isn’t BNP, he’s just regurgitating the same arguments in a ‘oh look its political correctness gone mad!’ sort of way.

It’s good amusement for a weekend. Maybe if we throw some virtual nuts at James, he’ll dance around.

“…92% of the population”… of the UK… “is an oppressed and under-represented minority…” It’s the unwritten but obvious meaning of what I wrote. Nice bit of out of context quoting and spin though.

And the comparison with South Africa is quite extraordinary. Because an ethnic minority has dominated the UK majority by force for years now. Will we ever see a white Prime Minister in his country…

BBC White Male Middle Class Heterosexual English Network? That’s Radio 4, isn’t it?

If the BBC isn’t “green” then it’s nothing at all. But they don’t notice that the Green Party and the BNP have identical policies on most issues.

A “Green” Britain and a “BNP” Britain would look exactly the same — that’s something the BBC should really be concerned with. Look at:

Vote Green – go blackshirt

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2008/02/vote_green_go_b.html

Err, that article doesn’t even begin to state the the BNP and Greens have identical policies. It argues that their policies would have the same result, which is something quite different. Still, it’s an nice attempt at suggesting that Greens are actually fascists in disguise, which I’m pretty sure breaks Godwin’s law. But hell, anything’s good enough for Samizdata.

James
I’m not sure that I agree with all that you say, but I’ll give you ten out of ten for debating. You answer every attack with a concise argument. I hope you never get your teeth into me. You are a terrier.
Ripp (post 27),
Your somewhat OT post is pure brilliance. Sorry Scepticisle, but there is no doubt that the greenies are fascists. (Forget Godwins Law, it’s only applicable when referring to Hitler and his version of fascism, National Socialism.)

Fascism, like Marxism, is an extreme left wing ideology defined in Wiki as, “… an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole.”

How does the green movement, in which all individuals must be forced to conform to the diktats of the green ideology (if the planet is to be saved) differ in its approach to that of fascism? Don’t get me wrong, the greens may be correct, and their actions may well be justified if the human race is to survive, but it is still no different to fascism.

in which all individuals must be forced to conform to the diktats of the green ideology

Who said they advocated compulsion?

I did.

James @ 18,

Ever heard of demographic transition models? No, I didn’t think so.

>Fascism, like Marxism, is an extreme left wing ideology

Erm, so that’s why fascists and their ilk are collectively referred to as the “Far Right”? Must be the fanatically left-wing BBC piping delicious piping-hot propaganda into my screaming brain-sponge that is causing both myself and the majority of rational human beings on this planet to say as one:

“You’re talking bollocks, mate.”

There is no homogenous white culture in this country. Fact. You wanna know why? It’s because White British people are by far the single largest ethnic group in the UK, and – wait for it – people tend to identify themselves as belonging to one or more cultural minorities.

I.e., I may identify myself as being a fan of alternative music (a minority in terms of overall musical taste), a Spurs supporter (a minority in terms of overall football support), a socialist (a minority in terms of overall political allegiance), a… well, you get the picture. I don’t identify as being a White Hetrosexual Male, not because I’m not one (I am) but because it is not a cultural minority.

Simple, really.

27. That piece is based on many suppositions that are filled with so many holes that were it 2003 Russell Brand wouldn’t have known what to do with himself if presented with it.

Kid,
Sorry to upset you but I repeat, “Fascism, like Marxism, is an extreme left wing ideology.”

You’re correct that “fascists and their ilk” are usually referred to as far right, but not by all, and not by me. I don’t intend to get into an ideological debate, I just point out that the governments of the extreme left (Stalin, Mao etc) where as crushingly dictatorial as those of the fascist regimes in the 1930’s, and if you where a humble citizen living in any of these societies, you would have noticed little difference between those of the left and those of the right. All specialised in telling you what to do, what to think, and what to say, and taxing you until the pips squeaked for the privilege.

Rather than a straight line, Left – Right, it is far more practical to see this line folded upon itself to form a circle. Extreme right and extreme left then take up their correct positions, side by side, opposed on the far side of the circle by anarchy and libertarianism.

Feel free to continue thinking this is bollocks, you are in the majority, and the current left – right fallacy is sure to increasingly dominate a sterile debate over who is going to rule you and tell you how to live your life, so you have massive uninformed opinion on your side.

Oh, and as to my rather abrupt response to Sunny, I apologise. It was 2:31am, and I’d not long returned from the pub, so my debating skills were somewhat impaired.

Let me reply to your question, “Who said they (supporters of the green movement) advocated compulsion?”

It would take me far too long to list all of the green parties of Europe, all of the green pressure groups and charities, and all of the green politicians who lobby for, and increasingly obtain, intrusive legislation telling us how to live, how to travel, how much energy we can use etc.
Would it not be quicker for you to list those members of the green movement who advocate the implementation of their agenda on a voluntary basis?
Anyway, what’s your problem with this? If one accepts the urgent need to tackle climate change, all of us on the planet must pull together or we will all suffer, and surely no one doubts that compulsion is the only way to achieve the necessary outcome.

Garry, “There also ought to be more emphasis on the teaching of critical thinking and rational argument rather than concentrating on rewarding people who can remember stuff.”

Yeah, you’re not wrong. Still, the relentless misdirection in this post is very entertaining.

I think it is a great idea to have radio stations aimed at wherever sub-cultures exist because having a pluralistic cosmopolitan meta-culture is a wonderful thing… so the idea of one for ‘Asians’ seems innocuous (whatever ‘Asians’ means given that people in the UK from Japan and Pakistan have nothing whatsoever in common culturally).

The only thing I object to is providing radio stations for anyone at all with my tax money.

God, this guy must really hate Woman’s Hour.

“It would take me far too long to list all of the green parties of Europe, all of the green pressure groups and charities, and all of the green politicians who lobby for, and increasingly obtain, intrusive legislation telling us how to live, how to travel, how much energy we can use etc.”

So everyone who lobbys for the introduction of particular laws which affect other people is a fascist? That’s a pretty, um, inclusive definition of fascism. Other groups which lobby for and obtain legislation telling us how to live, travel and other things include the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Conservative Party, the TUC, the CBI, every national newspaper and most local newspapers as well. No wonder you libertarians feel so put upon, when confronted with the scale of what you think is fascist in Britain today.

John East- that’s a fallacy. Ultimately you beleive in compulsion too (if you are a libertarian because you believe in compelling people to abide by property rights, if you are an anarchist you just remove the compulsion from the state and give it to other organisations who end up looking very like the state). You can reduce political philosophy to that- but you end up with a very odd and rather dodgy concept of what is going on.

Is Fascism rightwing? Well it is in the sense that most of the people that backed the Fascists in the twenties backed them in order to stave off the socialist menace. Fascism was seen as a reinforcement to plutocracy and often a reinforcement to the Church and the nation. That was rightwing for its time and still is. It derived its thinking from counter enlightenment ideas which were very current in the early twentieth and late nineteenth centuries and were then considered reactionary.

Back to the main issue though- I don’t see what the problem is about an Asian network- its not like it broadcasts only to Asian people, and I’m sure many of its technicians are white, it just broadcasts about Indian music or Islam or whatever else it broadcasts about. Why is that a problem to anyone? I’m a white heterosexual male, I have to say that I don’t feel under seige particularly at all- I’m not sure why I should- I can go anywhere I want without threat, I never get abuse yelled at me on the streets, etc etc.

Furthermore underlying this is the argument that the world is zero-sum. It isn’t. A gain for women in terms of employment or education is a gain for men as well- and that’s true for ethnic minorities too. Ok its not as big a gain for those not directly effected- but its still a gain and I think the fact I’ve got good female friends- probably impossible for a middle class person 200 years ago- is a sign that the world is changing for the better and that the more prejudices come down, the more life is better not just for those directly in receipt of the prejudices but for all of us. Come on if the Asian network gets you into Asian music or into Asian cooking or makes you understand Islam- isn’t that a good thing? So why object….

Sigh…

The words left, right, communist and fascist are essentially meaningless as they have become terms of abuse that are used to indicate ‘things we don’t like’ without making any distinction between them. Fascism, for instance, is variously used to describe Franco, Hitler and Mussolini – all very different forms of unpleasantness.

They are words with no descriptive capacity and, I feel, indicative of a rather poor level of descriptive discourse.

xD.

#35

>I don’t intend to get into an ideological debate

There’s no need for much of a debate, though I’m amazed quite how often this fallacy crops up. (It’s a classic ‘libertarian’ meme, I know.) Left parties are generally class-based parties, often the party of organized labour, and usually emphasize a class allegiance *that crosses* national boundaries. Right parties go for other stuff: blood, soil, nation, ethnicity, conservation; fascists obsessively so, usually with a dose of victimhood and mysticism dolloped on top. As Gracchi says (#40), at its inception this manifested itself as defence of Church and nation (i.e. the traditional plutocracy). Today it translates better as an obsession with ‘culture’. The same themes of pollution, disgust, erosion etc. occur.

Which is why Blaney is correctly placed on the ‘far’ or ‘extreme’ right.

Of course, you’re right that both extreme left and extreme right ideologies of this type are statist and collectivist. And whether your assassin was of the right or left would perhaps be a moot point if you were up against the wall.

#41

>They are words with no descriptive capacity

Not if you use them properly. But, generally, you’re right: most people’s idea of debate is somewhat attenuated on t’Internets.

>… Franco, Hitler and Mussolini…

Fair point, but I do think that in shorthand terms these 3 share *just about* enough to be bracketed together. Fascism and Falangism at least are comparable, and not discounting obvious local differences, map reasonably well on to each other. But, hey, we’re *way* off-topic now.

#37 Perry

>I object to is providing radio stations for anyone at all with my tax money

Okay, fair enough. But, given the monumental amounts of tax money that governments waste, you’d admit then that a few quid on fostering something that’s a “wonderful thing” is money (*relatively speaking*) well spent? Compared with export credit guarantees, corporate welfare and whatever the hell else the DTI exists for, say?

DonaldS @ 43,

I don’t think you can use them ‘properly’ because they are, firstly, so debased and secondly they cover spreads that are too large.

Worth remembering that ‘left wing’ as a term comes from where people sat in the Estates-General in France. I don’t believe that many issues from that period are now relevant.

xD.

Would you not agree that London’s East End white culture has been destroyed by immigration?

Er, no, I wouldn’t agree. Now, containerisation, well, you’d have had a point. You can’t just wish away the underlying economic realities.

I don’t understand how white people can be “over represented” in a predomiately white culture (at least historically) like the UK, it’s like saying that black people are over represented in Jamaican culture, or Jewish people are over represented in Israeli culture.
90 ish % of the UK population are white, ergo you would expect a representative culture and all national institutions to refect that percentage. Which is why I have asked the BBC to explain why 50% of children on CBBC are from ethnic minorities, they heven’t replied, but I suspect the answer is because the BBC is run by London based liberals, who are unaware that their perception of UK society, as seen through the prism of Londons “diverse” ethnic mix, is actually wholly unrepresentative of the real population.

The broader point is about labelling. Calling a radio station “an Asian station” is an act of self identity, a political (with a small p) act. Quite apart from the question of whether it’s approprtiate for a publicly funded organisation to be making overtly political statements, the question is why are there no publicly funded Black/Polish/Italian etc etc stations (and yes I would include white).