Another obstacle in their path is that they so obviously despise the country that they claim to champion. The repeated mantra of Barnbrook and other BNP politicians is that Britain in general and London in particular is a ‘cess pit.’ For those of us who genuinely love this country, that is a little hard to swallow, especially from people who pose as patriots.

However, on the ‘giving them enough rope’ idea, while that is obviously working at the moment with the likes of the councillor you mention and the berk in beige himself Richard Barnbrook, there will come a time when somebody with real political skill and presence will come along to lead them. If and when that happens, the BNP or a new Nazi party could become a real force in British politics. We cannot afford to be complacent in the meantime, no matter how much of a hash they are making of it at the moment.

I wonder how bizarre and bigoted the BNP has to get before their voters notice. Nick Griffin has already called the reality of the Holocaust ‘nonsense’ and said that he would ‘force’ second-generation immigrants to leave the country*. How much lower can they get?

* http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8QQwU00Jk

The ‘enough rope to hang themselves’ line depends a) as Adam points out above, that they will actually hang themselves with it, which they may well have done in the past, but may not be guaranteed to do in the future and b) they don’t hang anyone else with it in the meantime. Given that they are a bunch of fascists, and furthermore incompetent, that strikes me as pretty optimistic: that a policy with objectionable aims is badly implemented does not mean that it will therefore have no objectionable results. In fact, it may well have more objectionable results than if it was well implemented.

Well, for my part, I don’t believe we should panic at the mention of the BNP, they’re not all that, as you rightly point out. But at the same time the effect they can have in an area, even at their currently low level, can be to increase racist attacks – even if it is not they themselves who carrying out those attacks.

In terms of creating a better society we need to be aware of where the BNP are attempting to gain influence, and that isn’t just in council chambers. If their poison can be spread to even a minority of people it can impact on the quality of life in the UK.

The Telegraph is responsible for the content of its site and for them to allow Barnbrook to use it as a platform for race hate and to promote the values of the police state with streets patrolled by the army is irresponsible and wrong. I don’t disagree with much of what you say here but I do think to boil it down to whether the BNP get their councillors re-elected or not (which I think you’ve tended towards a touch here) is a fairly narrow perspective.

Adam/Rob:

I should point that I’m not advocating complacency by any means here – we should always be watchful whenever the spectre of Fascism rears its heads and, where possible, move to nip it in the bud.

But what I would strongly argue is that for all that Orwell’s view of the possibility, if not desirability, of an ‘English socialism’ may have turned out, in retrospect, to be hopelessly over-optimistic – he was always a rather inconsistent conceptual political author anyway – his general characterisation of the ‘English genius’, what might best be referred to as our national character rather than identity, which is too strong a term, remains as valid today as it was sixty years ago when the Lion and Unicorn was written/published.

One can clearly see this in the general air of scepticism with which efforts by politicians to create a public debate about the nature of ‘Britishness’ is routinely met. Politicians banging on about what it means to be British just isn’t… well.. it just isn’t a very British thing at all.

To pull another passage out of the Lion and the Unicorn, Orwell wrote:

But here it is worth noting a minor English trait which is extremely well marked though not often commented on, and that is a love of flowers. This is one of the first things that one notices when one reaches England from abroad, especially if one is coming from southern Europe. Does it not contradict the English indifference to the arts? Not really, because it is found in people who have no aesthetic feelings whatever. What it does link up with, however, is another English characteristic which is so much a part of us that we barely notice it, and that is the addiction to hobbies and spare-time occupations, the privateness of English life. We are a nation of flower-lovers, but also a nation of stamp-collectors, pigeon-fanciers, amateur carpenters, coupon-snippers, darts-players, crossword-puzzle fans. All the culture that is most truly native centres round things which even when they are communal are not official – the pub, the football match, the back garden, the fireside and the ‘nice cup of tea’. The liberty of the individual is still believed in, almost as in the nineteenth century. But this has nothing to do with economic liberty, the right to exploit others for profit. It is the liberty to have a home of your own, to do what you like in your spare time, to choose your own amusements instead of having them chosen for you from above. The most hateful of all names in an English ear is Nosey Parker. It is obvious, of course, that even this purely private liberty is a lost cause. Like all other modern people, the English are in process of being numbered, labelled, conscripted, ‘co-ordinated’. But the pull of their impulses is in the other direction, and the kind of regimentation that can be imposed on them will be modified in consequence. No party rallies, no Youth Movements, no coloured shirts, no Jew-baiting or ‘spontaneous’ demonstrations. No Gestapo either, in all probability.

Has any of that really changed? Some of us might have traded in stamp-collecting and pigeon-fancying for blogging and on-line gaming but that sense that personal liberty is bound up is simple notions of privacy and the right to choose your own amusements and the innate suspicion of regimentation and all the usual trappings of Fascism.

That’s why the BNP and the far-right won’t succeed in breaking into the mainstream, any more than idiot ideas like an ‘Armed Forces’ day will take root as focal point for display of patriotic fervour – the latter will die on its arse the first time it coincides with a bit of heavy rain.

We’re a nation that just doesn’t do overt public displays of nationalism – unless we’re playing the Germans at Wembley or the Aussies at Lords and even then the most we’ll muster is an off-key rendition of Jerusalem and a chorus of the Great Escape (written by an American of course). We’d rather mark May Day by kicking in the windows of Maccy D’s and spray painting a green Mohican on a statue of Churchill than we would spend it watching a parade of tanks rolling up the Mall.

We just don’t do this kind of crap and we tend to look on people who do as, at best, a bit eccentric and at worst as as bunch of nutters, and that isn’t going to change any time soon.

I’ve been inclined to agree, given the developments of the last few days. Barnbrook’s blog makes the BNP look ridiculous.

It’s almost a shame that there have been no new posts since Monday – which might be evidence that the party agrees.

Unity, I think you’re spot on with your article and follow-up at 4:40pm. The ‘English genius’ is one of the few things I remain optimistic and uncynical about.

Adam,

there will come a time when somebody with real political skill and presence will come along to lead them.

Do you really think that is likely to happen though? Is there precedent?

Genuinely interested, particularly as my knowledge of history in this area is limited to a mere awareness of Oswald Mosley and the BUF!

BenSix,

I wonder how bizarre and bigoted the BNP has to get before their voters notice.

Of course some voters genuinely do support the BNP for what they think it stands for, but I am certain many others do so because they feel other parties are just not listening – to give them a bloody nose, reminding them of (however little) the power they can wield.

That, I think, is the real danger, more so than a competent leader emerging (of course someone could take advantage of that, too) – that the parties continue to not listen, and therefore more nutters get elected. I don’t see them getting an MP any time soon though.

Jim Jay, what do you think the Telegraph should do with Barnbrook’s blog?

5cc, quite! Particularly coming from someone who claimed he was “going to do it everyday. Maybe sometimes a few times a day.”

ukliberty,

“Of course some voters genuinely do support the BNP for what they think it stands for, but I am certain many others do so because they feel other parties are just not listening – to give them a bloody nose, reminding them of (however little) the power they can wield”

What’s interesting, though, is that while the BNP has gained support, alternative left-wing parties (aside from the brief Respect enthusiasm) are losing theirs. There must be elements of BNP policy that particularly appeal to those who wish ‘to give them a bloody nose’. If other parties were to attempt to garner these voters, then, they would have to identify these elements and attempt to incorporate them within their own philosophies.

I think it is interesting that for lots of people the concept of freedom can be threatening and confusing at first, which is why there remains a continuing well-spring of support for those who reject the short-term consequences of such messy confusion.

We should recognise the success of illiberal politicians as an indicator that our current leaders are failing, so Barnbrook’s election shouldn’t be disassociated from the general acceptance of Gordon Brown’s malaise.

BenSix, I’ll address your points in reverse if I may:

There must be elements of BNP policy that particularly appeal to those who wish ‘to give them a bloody nose’. If other parties were to attempt to garner these voters, then, they would have to identify these elements and attempt to incorporate them within their own philosophies.

Agreed.

Well, like it or not – and rightly or wrongly – immigration remains one of the top five issues at election time (general election time anyway, not sure about locals but I’m guessing it’s similar).

Yes, it’s well below the economy and law and order, but if I recall correctly it’s seen as just a bit less important than education and health, but much more important than other issues.

I think immigration is mixed up with a lot of things – crime (as we have seen from ‘Bryan’) crowding, employment, housing and house prices for example – and I’m not saying that’s right, or that I know what the answers are, I’m just saying that maybe the BNP seem a bit stronger here or maybe voters think let’s scare the politicians and let them know how annoyed we are by voting in some BNP. It does seem to work, doesn’t it?

What’s interesting, though, is that while the BNP has gained support, alternative left-wing parties (aside from the brief Respect enthusiasm) are losing theirs.

Respect had a bit of a schism, didn’t they? So that didn’t bode well for the elections. And perhaps the English aren’t as lefty as some people would like….

But what I’ve been wondering this afternoon is about the “Others” as in other parties – how does that break down (struggling to find out)? After all, the Others have twenty times the councillors that the BNP have, so you could ask what are the Others offering that the BNP and other parties are not?

Clearly some of them will be related to single issues – eg Independent Kidderminster Hospital and Health Concern when it started out. But it would be interesting to see who the Others are.

“Well, like it or not – and rightly or wrongly – immigration remains one of the top five issues at election time (general election time anyway, not sure about locals but I’m guessing it’s similar).”

What is imperative is that politicians ensure voters understand the causes of their complaints, as otherwise it will be difficult to engage them. Crime, for example, has not been causally linked to immigration, and one could not directly address an invalid fear.

“Respect had a bit of a schism, didn’t they? So that didn’t bode well for the elections. And perhaps the English aren’t as lefty as some people would like….”

So did the BNP, although they didn’t make it quite as public: http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2007/12/fight-night-in-leeds.html

“And perhaps the English aren’t as lefty as some people would like…”

I think the English aren’t particularly interested in the standard hard-left Moebius arguments that go on for decades about extremely unimportant issues, accompanied by splits and shouting. This isn’t so say that the English aren’t, on balance, rather more conventionally conservative* than the last 25 years of government would suggest. In particular, there isn’t actually that much enthusiasm for free market ideology as has been shown by the politicians of both parties.

Naturally this also applies to libertarianism, which most people haven’t heard of, but would find singularly tiresome if buttonholed into a corner by a devotee of such. I know I do.

* I take it as read that conservative opinions are found more often on the left than the right these days. Hence all the Trots becoming neocons and trying radical ways to reshape the world (into rubble, quite often), and all the lefties defending human rights and the rule of law and British historical freedoms. That’s a conservative position.

Who cares what we are, we all have our own eccentricities and peccadilloes and we judge ourselves on our own terms. We are, and you can’t take that away from us!

(apols, if you can spot the reference)

I have a problem with the ‘give them enough rope’ thesis – I don’t think it always works.

My problem is that when people turn to the BNP, they’re not actually looking for rational solutions or interested in discussions. They’ve voting for the BNP for emotional reasons that may negate falling support even if the person turns out to be a complete wally.

After all, we regularly vote in Labour and Tory ministers who are complete wallies, all the time.

So do most BNP voters closely follow what their BNP candidate is doing? I doubt it. And what if they think that obvious attempts to expose their stupidity is part of some media campaign against the BNP?

Hell, Littlejohn himself has cussed the BNP loads of times but they still have a base of support that has held strong.

So the ‘give them enough rope’ theory can only go so far. Most people who vote for the BNP might not even be interested when a BNP candidate hangs themselves. They might just keep voting them in.

What do you do then?

“(apols, if you can spot the reference)”

Go on, I’m curious now.

“My problem is that when people turn to the BNP, they’re not actually looking for rational solutions or interested in discussions. They’ve voting for the BNP for emotional reasons that may negate falling support even if the person turns out to be a complete wally.”

I’m not entirely sure about this. When the NF collapsed in the late 1970s, it was largely because the government of Margaret Thatcher represented much of what their voters wanted. As most of us are would oppose any aping of that administration, we may have to hope that the party just tears itself apart.

“After all, we regularly vote in Labour and Tory ministers who are complete wallies, all the time.”

Speak for yourself ; )

Sunny,

Let all the flowers bloom. Is that not what democracy is all about?

I do believe in the sense of the electorate. I do not believe that the BNP represents me, their target audience, however the fear that they might, seems to permeate your comments here. They are not the threat you think they are.

Let me make it quite plain. I would never, ever, vote BNP. And I’d suspect that the vast majority of the electorate wouldn’t either.

They, the BNP, are a cheap trip, worthy of little more than the satire they deserve.

Barnbrook is hung by his own, ridiculous words, as 5cc has amply demonstrated.

I have a problem with people referring to the BNP as Far Right. They are extremely socially conservative, yes, but on the economic scale they’re to the left of Old Labour. THIS is why they appeal to a lot of Old Labour voters who have become completely disillusioned and disenfranchised – they’re a dream for the “hard working white man” who wants his bit of redistribution and justice for the workers with a twist of racism.

Jennie Rigg,

Perhaps you are right. Frankly, it does not matter. Their flagship policy is what you said last.

a twist of racism.

Can you see the agenda here?

Unity,

I’ve had my disagreements with you before now. But that is a frankly brilliant post.

The ‘give them enough rope’ thesis does always work, it just depends on how long the particular piece of rope is.

Really what this means is that it comes down to a judgement call over expediency: what is the level of damage that can justifiably be sustained before the calls to rein it in can no longer be resisted – how much slack can you afford to give without creating loopholes to trip yourself up in?

Sunny – I think there’s a difference between voting for a BNP candidate because he’s the little guy having a go at the uncaring establishment and re-electing the BNP candidate because you like what he’s been doing. As Unity points out, very little re-election goes on, which I think is partly because it’s hard for the BNP to get heard but mainly because they haven’t actually got anything done (if they could go back to the electorate and say ‘we kicked out 3000 immigrant criminal scroungers, aren’t we great’ it might be a different matter, but they’re never going to do that).

What it may come down to is that the BNP policies are are just that, British and National (not to say National Socialist), and can’t actually be implemented at the local or even London Assembly opposition level. Therefore they’re never going to be in the position of going for re-election on a platform of achievement of aims, and are going to have to rely on the diminished little-guy-have-a-go-hero vote. The time to worry is when they actually switch to local issue politics they may have a slight chance of delivering on.

Successful ethnic nationalist movements know that actually getting down and delivering comes before political power and is in fact essential to it – I’m thinking Hamas, Hezbollah, Mahdi Army. The BNP can never follow that strategy because there’s no power vacuum in the UK and they don’t have the financial support to do it.

Of course, this means that the way to stop the BNP is the same as the way that should have stopped the three groups above – don’t create a power vacuum by destroying civilian infrastructure*. It’s a good thing we aren’t ruled by people who went along with that, or anything.

* German hyperinflation can loosely be grouped with this as well, to tie it back to real fascists. The Nazis understand the power getting a country working again had to breed loyalty. Of course, the BNP are convinced that an economic storm is going to destroy the existing order after which they will emerge and take their rightful place as our leaders…