I suspect it’s for the same reasons that IT contractors and dishwashers don’t have unions – at one end of the market, it’s a well-paid sellers’ market , while at the other end it’s full of women who don’t speak English very well, aren’t in their jobs for more than a few months at a time, and hence are hard to mobilise and easy to exploit.

I’m completely on board with this. The IUSW is currently struggling for better recognition, but there are a lot of organised sex-workers groups struggling for better representation. The trouble is, when a profession isn’t entirely legal, or when there’s a stigma attached, it’s far harder to get people to organise.

I think there is a specific problem within the sex sector of the labour market – there is no widespread desire for voluntary action – this isn’t about representation and forcing central authority to intervene, this is about self-regulation.

Lapdance/sex clubs operate far beyond the terms of their licenses because they oppose a strict regulatory framework as they only exist where they have been able to take advantage of the looseness of licensing laws.

So if this sector is to be destigmatised and become a valid occupation it must stop subverting its democratic responsibilities and, among other things, take account of the community it exists within and become a fully-participating member of that community: I’ve never met the crack-smoking prositutes who ply their trade along my street and they’ve not introduced themselves to any of the neighboorhood or attempted to reach any form of accomodationm, so when they get murdered or attacked they have absolved themselves of any possible method of recourse and get rightly judged.

The same can be said for the sex shops and ‘gentlemans’ clubs which sprung up over the past few years.

The industry can only blame it’s own inaction for the public regard in which it is held.

Neil: the GMB were on the case back in 2002:

The workers are, however, fighting back. The IUSW was set up two years ago, campaigning for decriminalisation and basic rights for its members. So far it has only 100 people on its books – many potential members are understandably apprehensive about joining – but affiliated to the GMB general union in March. As well as having this link with prostitution, the GMB is recruiting lap dancers through its entertainment sector.

The pinnacle of the GMB’s achievements so far has been the recognition it has won at Majingos, a lap dancing club that opened in London’s Docklands this month. Manager Alan Whitehead is a great believer in unions and had encouraged Equity, the actors’ union, to represent the workers in other clubs he has run.

If Object put half as much energy into ensuring workplace rights for the women as they do into trying to get their workplaces shut down, lap dancers would have the solidarity and commitment of the miners in the past.

PS: Another reason might be the tendency of anti-sex work activists to act as academic ‘gatekeepers’ when it comes to evidence-based policy-making, as in this row featuring Julie Bindel (who’s now got form for that kind of thing).

I think you’ll find unions do organise in lap dancing clubs.
The GMB have a sex workers branch and this I believe includes a lap dancing section

The IUSW, which (largely) doubles as the London Adult Entertainment branch of the GMB, organises lapdancers, as does Equity. the actors’ union. My information is that there’s surprisingly little sexual harassment of girls in lapdancing clubs, or violence. I’m in conrtact with Solitaire, a dancer’s who’s done PR work for IUSW, + I’ll try + draw her attention to this thread.

One comment on Liberal Conspiracy’s posting’s policy – if misogynist remarks will be deleted, why won’t misandrist ones?

One comment on Liberal Conspiracy’s posting’s policy – if misogynist remarks will be deleted, why won’t misandrist ones?

If the male contingent of LC are suitably outraged, be sure they’ll get deleted too!

But seriously, you have a point. I suppose equality must get to a certain point before the tides shift to such an extent that we mention such concerns in our terms and conditions. We welcome such advances.

We can’t cover *everything* and please *everyone*. We merely attempt to provide the best possible environment for people to feel they can contribute to the debate. )

Sorry for not turning up sooner; I’ve been out all day and hadn’t realised this had been cross-posted (yeah, I could and probably should post here directly, but that would require me to be less self-conscious about it, and there’s not much chance of that happening).

Anyway, this is why the internet is great. I write a post from the position of not knowing anything and then a few people pop up and teach me stuff. It’s a fun position to be in.

To Rosa & Suzanne, whilst I was aware of there being some organisation with the IUSW, it just doesn’t appear to be very widespread. For example, how far is its reach beyond London? Would anyone who works at the Spearmint Rhino in Sheffield have heard of it?

I was writing from the assumption that the Next Big Thing you could do to protect rights & guard against exploitation would be to try and grasp towards some kind of universally-accepted code of working conditions (or equivalent), and I wondered whether greater organisation could achieve this. To this end, the comments from John B, Laurie & thomas about the practical problems are pretty instructive. Would be useful for some more input, though.

Finally, who the hell thought Spearmint Rhino would be a cool name for a global brand? I mean, it’s even worse than calling your band the Arctic Monkeys…

I support the full legalisation of prostitution because it may help improve the lives of those in the industry but that will not prevent me posting a link to this joke:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jokes/read/266161

Firstly, I should point out that I’m not a sex worker though I am involved in sex workers’ lists and discussion groups. Through one of these I have tried to contact Solitaire, who is really the expert on this subject who can speak from extensive experience of trying to organise IUSW in the lapdance world.

Can I say at this point that I first discovered this site as I have a Google news alert for anything mentioning lap dancing, I don’t really know what the rules are, I’m going to try to supply links, I hope that’s OK with mods.

Firstly I would like to mention a few points that have cropped up to date that seem to me to be based on stereotypical assumptions, and I would question the evidence for them.

Firstly in Niel’s original piece. I read the first par + it strikes me you really need to loosen up!

Later you use the words “giving local councils the power to decide whether they want them (lap dancing clubs) popping up all over the place, and also allowing for greater regulation. Sure enough, this is a very necessary goal, but whilst it would certainly curtail their expansion and shut down clubs that’re egregiously exploitative…” etc.

Why, exactly, is this a “very necessary goal”? All things being equal, clubs will increase and decrease in proportion to the demand for them, why is it intrinsically necessary to ensure demand is over or under supplied for lap dancing clubs as distinct from, say, butchers, bakers or candlestick makers? What is the evidence of clubs that are “egregiously” exploitative? Of sexual harassment? Of violence?

You don’t think there’s a teeny weeny possibility here that these may be very convenient arguments for radical feminists for whom some women were born equal and all others will damn well have equality thrust upon them if it’s the last thing they bloody do?

Studd of the Yard (marvellous name, isn’t it?) reports very few problems with lap dancing clubs according to the BBC this week, and adds that conditions are virtually unenforceable anyway:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7670006.stm

And anyway, what on earth difference is it going to make to the quality of life in Camden or Chipping Sodbury or wherever whether clients in the local lap dance clubs are 1’2” or 4’6” away from the dancers? Are local electors to be regailed with the slogans “VOTE FOR FRED – YOUR THREE INCH LIBERAL” – “VOTE FOR MARY, YOUR 12’6” CONSERVATIVE”? Has it come to this?

Having said that, I think the thrust of your argument has everything to commend it, it would be excellent and far, far healthier if not only lap dancers but all workers in the sex industry were unionised.

I find Thomas’s comments incredible. I can think of a far more powerful argument for enhancing local government control of Thomas than of the average lap dancing club.
“Lapdance/sex clubs operate far beyond the terms of their licenses…”

Evidence?

“…because they oppose a strict regulatory framework…”

Evidence? Anyway, who in what trade doesn’t?

“..as they only exist where they have been able to take advantage of the looseness of licensing laws.”

Are you honestly suggesting, Thomas, that no lap dance club would exist were it not for what you term the looseness of the licensing laws?

“So if this sector is to be destigmatised and become a valid occupation…”

Now hold on, nobody insofar as I’m aware has declared it invalid to date apart from you, Thomas. I couldn’t be detecting a little hint of a somewhat illiberal conspirator there, could I?

“…it must stop subverting its democratic responsibilities and, among other things, take account of the community it exists within and become a fully-participating member of that community…”

So that’s where it‘s going wrong. Maybe they could volunteer for the local school governors, go to church on Sundays, start a Neighbourhood Watch scheme, put some hours in for Age Concern, then all would be resolved?

“….I’ve never met the crack-smoking prostitutes who ply their trade along my street and they’ve not introduced themselves to any of the neighbourhood or attempted to reach any form of accommodation…”

Now really. Is this serious? The great majority (there is always a minority) of street prostitutes in most communities studied spend most of their time out of their minds on cocaine or heroin, leading totally chaotic lives and are highly marginalised. A recent study discovered the average street prostitute (in Bristol) had to find £720 a week for drugs alone. Some 60% of violence to prostitutes comes not from clients but from other parties, largely strangers being violent to street prostitutes. And you expect them to go around banging on doors introducing themselves: “Hi, I’m Sue, your local community chest, just here on a goodwill mission…”?

“….so when they get murdered or attacked they have absolved themselves of any possible method of recourse and get rightly judged.”

What? Well if that isn’t misogyny, what is? What do you mean they have absolved themselves, what nonsense. You’re obviously of the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe school of thought on this one, Thomas. Unlike Ipswich’s Steve Wright, Sutcliffe was not a punter but an abolitionist – he told his brother after the case he’d been “just cleaning up the streets, our kid.”

Yup, you’re definitely a case for enhanced local authority powers if ever there was one.

Niel, I read the first par + it strikes me you really need to loosen up!

Why, exactly, is it a “very necessary goal” to stifle the growth, and also to regulate, lap dancing clubs? All things being equal, they will increase and decrease in proportion to demand, why is it intrinsically necessary to ensure demand is over or under supplied for these clubs as distinct from, say, butchers, bakers or candlestick makers? What is the evidence of clubs that are “egregiously” exploitative? Of sexual harassment? Of violence?

You don’t think there’s a teeny weeny possibility here that these may be very convenient arguments for radical feminists for whom some women were born equal and all others will damn well have equality thrust upon them if it’s the last thing they bloody do?

Studd of the Yard (marvellous name, isn’t it?) reports very few problems with lap dancing clubs according to the BBC this week, and adds that conditions are virtually unenforceable anyway:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7670006.stm

And anyway, what on earth difference is it going to make to the quality of life in Camden or Chipping Sodbury or wherever whether clients in the local lap dance clubs are 1’2” or 4’6” away from the dancers? Are local electors to be regailed with the slogans “VOTE FOR FRED – YOUR THREE INCH LIBERAL” – “VOTE FOR MARY, YOUR 12’6” CONSERVATIVE”? Has it come to this?

Having said that, I think the thrust of your argument has everything to commend it, it would be excellent and far, far healthier if not only lap dancers but all workers in the sex industry were unionised.

I find Thomas’s comments incredible. I can think of a far more powerful argument for enhancing local government control of Thomas than of the average lap dancing club.

I’m surprised at your rules and regs for clubs to become “a valid occupation,” Thomas. I couldn’t be detecting a little hint of a somewhat illiberal conspirator there, could I? The industry, you tell us, “…must stop subverting its democratic responsibilities and, among other things, take account of the community it exists within and become a fully-participating member of that community…”

So that’s where it‘s going wrong. Maybe they could volunteer for the local school governors, go to church on Sundays, start a Neighbourhood Watch scheme, put some hours in for Age Concern, then all would be resolved?

“….I’ve never met the crack-smoking prostitutes who ply their trade along my street and they’ve not introduced themselves to any of the neighbourhood or attempted to reach any form of accommodation…”

Now really. Is this serious? The great majority (there is always a minority) of street prostitutes in most communities studied spend most of their time out of their minds on cocaine or heroin, leading totally chaotic lives and are highly marginalised. A recent study discovered the average street prostitute (in Bristol) had to find £720 a week for drugs alone. Some 60% of violence to prostitutes comes not from clients but from other parties, largely strangers being violent to street prostitutes. And you expect them to go around banging on doors introducing themselves: “Hi, I’m Sue, your local community chest, just here on a goodwill mission…”?

“….so when they get murdered or attacked they have absolved themselves of any possible method of recourse and get rightly judged.”

What? Well if that isn’t misogyny, what is? What do you mean they have absolved themselves, what nonsense. You’re obviously of the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe school of thought on this one, Thomas. Unlike Ipswich’s Steve Wright, Sutcliffe was not a punter but an abolitionist – he told his brother after the case he’d been “just cleaning up the streets, our kid.”

Yup, you’re definitely a case for enhanced local authority powers if ever there was one.

Neil – Comment is Free have just posted a related thread

Who owns the clubs? Answer that question and then ask why you can’t unionise the Mafia.

Destigmatisation of sex workers and open discussion of working conditions in lap dancing clubs and “massage parlours” are parts of the answer. Honest punter reviews will support the fairly run venues. The downside is that those who like to abuse women are given a hit list of venues to visit (the same argument applies to unionised and non-unionised venues).

Given that the semi-legitimate sex trade is cash only and that employees may not be using genuine ID, an informal approach will be more successful than unionisation. If punters know that Joe the manager demands that girls give him a blow job in return for the best working opportunity, it’ll have a negative impact on the business.

“Niel, I read the first par + it strikes me you really need to loosen up!”

Suzanne, I would implore you not to mock my hard-won right to be deeply boring! Besides, these places are a little out of my price range at the moment. There’s a hell of a lot to get through in that comment, and it’s not helping that I’m encumbered by flu. I take your point about regulation, though, and I wouldn’t really consider it important if there was more widespread organisation. I should address this, though:

“What is the evidence of clubs that are “egregiously” exploitative? Of sexual harassment? Of violence?”

You’re right to challenge my assumptions, but I wasn’t trying to state declaratively that the industry is rife with malevolence & exploitation. All I meant was that a union can help guard against exploitation of workers in the same way as they can do with any industry.

Hi all,

Speaking for the dancers – yes, in many venues we could do with better working conditions and rights. It would be great if venues had to give a concrete reason for sacking us, or if they couldn’t suddenly double the number of dancers or the house fee without some kind of justification or warning, or if they had to provide adequate changing facilities, security, a clean stage to dance on… However, dancers are difficult to unionise, for many reasons; and without the management agreeing to recognise union contracts or demands it’s all academic anyway.

Within London the majority of dancers are not originally from Britain and most do not plan to stay here long-term. They’re here for a few years to send as much money as possible home, then leave. UK nationals may be stripping part-time to fund university, or to tide them over between jobs. In all those scenarios they just want to keep their heads down, make money and leave; they’re probably not registered self-employed, are not paying tax, and don’t want to appear on the radar. Joining a union is therefore risky. Also they don’t really care what happens to the industry and working conditions etc. long term.

Those of us who do see the job as a career, are registered self-employed etc would in many ways love to see it all better regulated (thought it’s working conditions within the clubs which needs to be looked at, not the bigger licensing picture; current licensing regulations are fine). But when 80 per cent of the dancers around you aren’t interested, it’s hard to get anything going.

Getting dancers to join the IUSW is a challenge as most dancers do not identify themselves as sex workers therefore the name of the union is an instant turn-off. More of us are Equity members, and get good benefits from them. The membership fees are also an issue as we already pay out so much of our hard-earned cash: we pay striptease agency fees, high house fees to the venues, all our travel/costumes/make-up/cab costs, those of us registered pay tax and national insurance, accident insurance in case we fall off the pole… It adds up to hundreds of pounds a week. we need to see concrete proof that union membership will benefit us before we’re prepared to pay out even more.

If I were to say, “I’m not going to work at any venue where i have to pay fees to go work there, that does not provide me with a locker for my property and valuables, that does not increase fees and dancer numbers at random, that always provides clean facilities” – then there would be virtually NO-WHERE in London I could work (ironically the best place I do is underground and unlicensed). We’re forced to carry on putting up with bad conditions as the other option is to find a new career.

I imagine it may be easier to unionise dancers outside of London, this is something the GMB is currently looking at.

In a way, what is required is a big threat (the current proposed licensing changes could be that) to draw everyone – dancers, management, agencies – together against a common enemy. At the moment, despite the bad conditions, there are enough good points (and some truly fabulous points – I love my job) that most of us don’t want to rock the boat and potentially put ourselves out of work.

Apologies for posting that last effort twice, it didn’t appear to post the first time, maybe through length + I’d spent some time on it.

Certainly some frustration is apparent on the IUSW lists (of which I’m a member, long story) that it’s very London orientated, without branches elsewhere. They have, however, had some small successes in organising lap dancers both inside and out of London.

One of the problems recently identified in recruiting lap dancers to the International Union of Sex Workers, however, is that “sex worker” is now commonly used as a euphemism for prostitute, which understandably produces resistance among the bulk of dancers. A rebranding is being considered, IUSW having been first chosen (according to some accounts), in order to appeal better to migrant sex workers in the capital than “London Adult Entertainment Branch of the GMB.”

A major problem in debates about prostitution, lap dancing and other “adult” activities is conflation. You only have to see how prostitution has arisen through this thread, which is supposed to be about dancing and the labour organisation of dancers. And prostitution is routinely conflated with human trafficking, but that’s another story. We seem to be irredeemably drawn to the Victorian melodrama with its pimps, hapless victims and heroes arriving at the eleventh hour to perform rescues.

There must surely be a little bit of most if not all men who would just love to spend their time owning and running a chain of lap dancing clubs, surrounded by a never ending supply of young lovelies disposing of their kits, even if it didn’t supply the income to live a luxurious lifestyle.

And that little bit of the man men who don’t do this can become very jealous. And it can ally with those women (and a few men) with notions such as Object’s, which stands Canute-like against the tide of human nature, and extremists can produce things like this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7512067.stm

Was that the actions of a rival “mafia” group? An insurance fiddle? Or a “rescue” by radical feminists and/or do-gooders?

Insofar as labour organisation is concerned, inhibiting factors vary but include high turnover rates among dancers, their self-employed status, competition between dancers and, of course, some anti-union managements.

But as in prostitution, we should be very careful to define our terms, especially the PET words pimp. exploitation, and trafficking, as these can mean very different things to different people.

Hope you get over your flu, Niel!

S

Have you ever done any employment law work Mr Robertson? If so you would realise that even in workplaces with the best practice going workers who attempt to enforce their rights at work are usually met with obstruction from managers. The romantic (and I use the word advisedly) belief that if lap dancers were unionised they would automatically be treated better, and that lap dancers would want to join a union in the first place (many employees don’t where I work) and that non unionised workers wouldn’t be available to fill their place if they didn’t want to work in places with good working conditions is maybe a bit far fetched?

Also as most lap dancers are self employed, they would not have employment rights in terms of employment tribunals etc. And isn’t it a bit patronising of a man to be telilng a group of women what to do anyway?

No unionised workplace “automatically” gets better. It takes time to build up trust, to get organised, to educate and to negotiate. I speak as former branch rep, and someone who has retained union membership even whilst moving into a spell of employment as self-employed. And yes, I would consider volunteering for the organisers role!

What’s new in this is the Government’s new plans, which have been sadly overshadowed by the proposals over prostitution, with which they have been probably deliberately but also inappropriately bracketed.

We can see the queues of grey-haired councillors lining up to back the lap dance fraternity and save their localities from the evil pestilence now: “Why, it’s only four miles from a primary school and there’s a church nobody goes to within scud missile distance!”

And what, exactly, will be the effect of this on the market in terms of customers and staff? There won’t be as many clubs as would meet demand, so existing clubs will become more valuable and charge higher prices to customers due to a false shortage of competition, and more staff will chase fewer places. As for the girls, as they normally have to pay the club to dance, that fee will be higher than it needs to be as well, due to a small number of venues having a monopoly of places. They might even auction them.

“A major problem in debates about prostitution, lap dancing and other “adult” activities is conflation. You only have to see how prostitution has arisen through this thread, which is supposed to be about dancing and the labour organisation of dancers. ”

THe

Lap-dancing clubs are used by sex traffickers. It was also an area of state sanctioned child sex trafficking by the British authorities.

Most if not all the ‘Jobcentre’ or “DWP” investigtions relate to our anti-trafficking group. We are still looking for bodies, and missing girls, is the short summary.

So I definitely want lap-dancing and child trafficking not only in the same page but in the same paragraph.

“Surely having dancers represented by a trade union could, in time, lead to more widely agreed-upon wage settlements, better working conditions and protection against exploitation, harassment & unlawful termination? ”

Very far fro it, the pimps always control the sex worker unions.

Gregory Carlin

Irish Anti-trafficking Coalition