I wonder if Cameron will be on the news tonight complaining about the loss of the BNP’s data. He always comes on when the govt lose data.

Tell me someone copied the list!

I was just about to post this. It could have severe ramifications for some of the members, not to mention the party…

Anybody in a high position or a public service such as the Police must be really, really stupid to give their information to a moronic bunch of Brownshirts like the BNP.

The *blog* is still up for those that want to find it.

Worringly there is someone with the same name as me on the list!

the information appears to have been taken offline

No. It is currently still online.

@2 Nina: Tell me someone copied the list!

I’m sure several people have 🙂 You can too!

I’d just like to mention here that there is a possibility of contempt of court here, and thus all direct links to the list will be taken down for the safety of Lib Con.

I wonder how many people are going to lose their jobs over this!

Indeed Jennie,

Anyone who posts the offending link after this warning will no longer be welcome at LC.

Readers should also be aware that LC logs all IP addresses of commenters.

We don’t want to turn moderation on, but we will if necessary.

HA HA HA.

That’s all.

Heh, tons of people have emailed it to me. By the way, why would linking to it be legally dangerous, out of interest?

There’s a court injunction against it, as of May 2008 (I think).

It does occur to me though – we should download the list and trawl it for interesting nuggets or stories.

>Heh, tons of people have emailed it to me. By the way, why would linking to it be legally dangerous, out of interest?

Linking to stuff that is alleged to be defamatory (e.g., reports about Nadhmi Auchi preserved on Wikileaks) is part of the basis for the objections Carter-F*ck have put to the New Statesman that have caused them to take down articles by Martin Bright. No determination has yet been made whether that will stick, but if the NS and their legal advisers are taking it seriously I wouldn’t go the other way at this point.

I’ve spent most of the day writing a series of articles about the case without running the risk.

I would think the same argument could apply to linking to a posting suggesting that 10,000 people or so are BNP members. All it needs is one not to be a member and you have a defamatory posting on your hands. There is certainly one on there who has been reported as renouncing the party back in the spring in his local paper.

So take care…

Matt

I still find it intriguing that belonging to the BNP should be so awful whereas belonging to , say, the SWP is a sign of sophistication and compassion. And if this forum is Liberal, why do people’s political affiliations matter?

And if this forum is Liberal, why do people’s political affiliations matter?

Why, have an affinity with Nazis do you?

I couldn’t resist looking. If only to see if the three thugs who had a go at me on St George’s day a few years ago are listed.

Some of the renewal comments suggest that some data is very old — much greater than twelve months. The information about members’ hobbies and occupation is not very detailed — what you would expect to see on the back of an index card at your local party ward, circa 1982. Some people have asked why this information is retained: if, for example, you are going on a demo, practical help from theatre people is handy so that you can make good props. Political parties always want to know who knows about law, graphic arts, printing, self presentation etc even if those people aren’t going to be door knockers. From the BNP list, they don’t appear to have much talent, but that is not a reason to be complacent.

Reason we shouldn’t be linking to it is the same reason we shouldn’t be linking to the numerous posts naming those convicted of the abuse of Baby P. Idiots will always be idiots and decide taking the law into their own hands is a good idea. That said, the information is a goldmine and some people are going to have a lot of explaining to do.

Diogenes

Imho belonging to the BNP is no worse than belonging to some of the far-left groups.

I’m not about to start posting examples of particular far left groups here and now, however !

Matt

“I still find it intriguing that belonging to the BNP should be so awful whereas belonging to , say, the SWP is a sign of sophistication and compassion. And if this forum is Liberal, why do people’s political affiliations matter?”

Well, that’s an interesting point, but… no. Belonging to the BNP is clearly worse. I mean just look at it.

DiogenesI ” still find it intriguing that belonging to the BNP should be so awful ”

Shorter troll…….Whats wrong with being a Nazi anyway,

A few daft legal queries. The BNP list exists but legal advice also exists that you should not publish links to it.

My presumption is that you cannot use this data because it was legally disclosed? Unless you have independently sourced information about local BNPers/idiots/wonks, you can’t use this information to mark up your canvas cards as “do not visit”?

If you are an election organiser, I presume that it would be wise if you do not even look at the list?

Charlieman: Quite possibly right on all accounts, but that isn’t going to stop it being used for any of the above.

Yeah, I’m intrigued as to which imaginary scarecrows believe SWP membership to be a sign of sophistication, rather than a sign of embarrassing-Citizen-Smith-ery.

The reason why SWPists are treated like comedians whilst BNPists are treated like scum, for those genuinely too stupid to work it out rather than trolling, is that the extreme-left parties are based on core beliefs of solidarity between everyone, whereas the extreme-right parties are founded out of hatred of people who’re different from them.

Extreme-left groups rapidly descend into (usually) embarrassing farce and (occasionally) great evil – the latter because good-ends-justify-evil-means rhetoric is a very dangerous tool that the power-hungry are quick to grasp. Extreme-right groups do the same – the difference is, the great evil is what they’re there for, not a perversion of their original aims.

The other reason is that there’s a self fulfilling prophecy at work. For whatever reason joining the BNP is just not socially acceptable for most people. So if you join it, that’s evidence that you’re not willing to listen to “most people”.

Which might mean that you’re a free-thinking maverick, but to be honest, 99% of the time it means you’re a braindead loser.

Whereas a lot of fundamentally sensible people get sucked into the far left, because while joining the SWP or whatever is a bit “edgy”, it’s not frowned upon in the same way as joining the BNP would be.

Apart from what Matt’s said in the trackback post, this is a good basic guide: On the web, the writer, the web site owner and the ISP can all be sued just like the writer, the magazine and the distributor in the print field. A link could also be potentially defamatory if you are linking to defamatory material. It’s slightly outdated in its definition of libel vx slander at the top though as we’ve discussed before, the rest of it looks sound as a basic guide (which is all it’s trying to be).

More serious issues. Many are assuming it is accurate.

What about the people on there who are not members?
What about the people added maliciously by whoever leaked it to get revenge, if any?
What about the people added maliciously who are just personal enemies of the leakers, if any?

i.e., What about “False Positives”. They have already lifted their usual “neither confirm nor deny” policy for people who are on the list who claim not to be members, but will they be believed?

And what about implications for the database state. The BNP has strong encryption systems in place, and this leaked due to human leaks. Is that not another nail in the coffin of allegedly secure databases by demonstrating a different failure mode for a database that *is* “secure”.

On the vigilantism possibilities – is this a good analog for what will happen when names from the Sex Offenders Register are parcelled out on demand? A hated group published on an unreliable database?

Shades of persecuted paediatricians for those on there incorrectly?

I feel a post coming on tomorrow.

Just thinking.

Matt: I think that Baby P case has provided a perfunctory lesson in how the likes of social networking sites can be used not just for political good but also to quickly whip up mob rule – if any of those involved had been out on bail, I dread to think what may well have happened, as indeed I would be concerned about what the social workers who were merrily “named and shamed” have been experiencing over the last few days.

The comments on this article show why I think that news sites should think very carefully before allowing public participation on any actual news story: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1795348.ece

>Matt: I think that Baby P case has provided a perfunctory lesson in how the likes of social networking sites can be used not just for political good but also to quickly whip up mob rule

I haven’t followed that side of that story, but agree.

its too late-the list is on youtube search bnp members list

pls somebody tell me how to find this list!!!!!

Sorry folks, but links to the actual list are being deleted due to legal reasons mentioned above.

There is no way sensible people can support breaching privacy and data protection, fundamental principles in a democracy. That is not the way to go.

The BNP is a legal political party (whether one likes it or not) and its law-abiding members, irrespective of their views, should be afforded the same legal protections as everyone else.

The person who leaked the information was wrong to do so. It’s a very poor precedent: these sort of antics will not actually work in the fight against the BNP anyway.

Of course, separately, it goes without saying that if this leak is indicative of infighting within the BNP, then that infighting is a good thing – long may it continue, as it weakens the party.

However, on the actual issue of this breach of data protection, that should be absolutely condemned. It’s a serious matter indeed, as privacy should always have a high priority and is a right of all, irrespective of political view.

Contrasting:

It does occur to me though – we should download the list and trawl it for interesting nuggets or stories.

with:

There is no way sensible people can support breaching privacy and data protection, fundamental principles in a democracy. That is not the way to go.

and:

I’d just like to mention here that there is a possibility of contempt of court here, and thus all direct links to the list will be taken down for the safety of Lib Con.

I get the feeling that Liberal Conspiracy is afraid of the law, but not of trashing a liberal democracy. It reminds me that some of the (unintentionally) funniest threads can be found right here. 🙂

big up the bnp!!!!!
dont ban!!
expand!!!

@24: The BNP list exists but legal advice also exists that you should not publish links to it.

Legal advice also exists that you shouldn’t make unauthorised copies of copyright works. Which doesn’t stop them appearing on The Pirate Bay, despite the RIAA, MPAA and US government trying to stop it.

The BNP membership list is now on TPB — no I’m not going to give a link but the search term isn’t hard to guess at — and I think we can safely say that the UK authorities aren’t going to be able to take it down.

This information is out there and for the law to pretend it isn’t is absurd. The same applies for the names in the Baby P case.

Has anyone got the list?

Yep. It’s not hard to find…

Cabalamat

You are right to say that the list is available and it will be difficult if not impossible to censor. That said, that does not mean the initial publication was right. It is not – it was fundamentally wrong.

Hear, hear Benjamin.

My own thoughts here:

http://pogsurf.blogspot.com/2008/11/illiberal-liberal-spotted.html

For me this thread demonstrates the inate hypocrisy of the liberal theme of this site. I imagine the same people who revel in the publishing of a BNP addresses are against publishing the addresses of convicted paedophiles.

Its obvious to any freedom loving, liberal thinking individual that, although anyone can post what they like, its core followers and contributors seek to promote their own agenda, be it anti-Tory in some if not all or pro-Labour/LD in others. The same people criticise and abuse anyone that does not follow their narrow intolerant rhetoric, that they follow like sheep with little or no intellectual capacity.

They accuse people with different views to themselves as being full of “hate”, but are so narrow-minded they can’t see their own “hate” displayed on every thread. Its a shame that the liberal traditions of this country are now so mutliated by the modern left.

>@24: The BNP list exists but legal advice also exists that you should not publish links to it.

>Legal advice also exists that you shouldn’t make unauthorised copies of copyright works. Which doesn’t stop them appearing on The Pirate Bay, despite the RIAA, MPAA and US government trying to stop it.

Indeed, but this is a UK site (Sunny is in London) and various UK media sites have taken down articles because of mere letters from lawyers about links to material that is allegedly questionable.

Not a wise time to be hanging Liberal Conspiracy’s balls out of the train window, I’d suggest. Less prominent places would not be the first target, but LC is high profile.

I think it’s quite interesting that most of the major leftish political blogs that have done so, have taken a stance against linking/publication.

Just my tuppence.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Baa baa. Now get out.

Benjamin is spot on at 35 and 36.

I would add, if the list contains also ex-members and people who have never been members, it isn’t funny that they may have to prove they shouldn’t have been on the list.

Chavscum, are you under the impression that your tedious bumdribble is in the least bit original or inspired?

Because from here it looks like the same ropy old bollocks that gets spaffed out by right wing bores across the length and breadth of teh internets…

whatever the legal reasons for not publishing links the fact of the matter is that the list is still on the net.
wikileak is a site that publishers information that is not usually in the public realm but ‘should be’. Uploaders put stuff on there that they feel the public have a right to know.

I noticed some asking the difference between SWP and the BNP. Well the SWP didn’t make a lot of peoples lives a misery through intimidation and violence like the BNP did in their old guise of the National Front. Talk to any black people (like myself) who had to put up with their sh1t through the late 70s and 80s. When you have been chased by a bunch of doc martin wearing, shaven headed thugs for no other reason than the colour of your skin, then you get a real feel for what they are all about. And don’t try to tell me that was then and this is now and the BNP aren’t the NF. Different approach now but the same core values. I’m glad the list has been published and I hope some of them do get prank calls and the like. If you preach hate then ultimately that’s exactly what you will get back – even if you are wearing shoes rather than knee high doc martens.
And as for the teachers, police etc that are on it – I think they should be sacked as you can’t do those types of job and yet belong to such a party. If my child is in the class of a BNP member and his grades aren’t great or he gets detention, how much am I going to think that its because of the BNP teacher than possibly my childs application? And how much of a stretch would it be to instigate legal action against the school??

I’m sorry but for me this story failed the “so what” test………….

Ace – I agree. The BNP were more successful at imposing their will through violence than the SWP were. At least in this country (internationally, socialist have been rather more successful at killing and persecuting people than fascists are). But it makes sense that in this country, we should be more concerned about the BNP than the SWP.

chavscum: Err, except we’re not publishing or sharing the link, all we’re doing is enjoying some schadenfreude. Anyone who actually publishes or uses the list to threaten those on it are just bad as those who advocate the publication of the home addresses of convicted paedophiles.

I wouldn’t waste your breath on chavscum or Martin (or pogsurf or Tory Dipper or Lobster Blogster or whatever he’s calling himself today); Mr Multiple Identity made it clear a long time ago that he’s mainly in it for the trolling.

(And I have little doubt that he will cry ‘foul’ when – after years of sneaking around behind a variety of masks – the masks are finally ripped away.)

As ever the Daily Mash has the best take on the story…

BNP NOT JUST POLICEMEN, REVEALS SECRET LIST

I want to know why the BNP are keeping details of people’s children on their membership database. Even if they wanted to record a family membership they should only really keep the number of children and possibly their ages, not their individual names and addresses. I’m curious as to whether this is common, do other political parties keep membership details about people’s families?

I want to know why the BNP are keeping details of people’s children on their membership database.

Options:

– get ’em while they’re young
– some form of developing eugenics experiment?
– because there was zero risk that this database would ever become public, so it was the safest place to keep them (see also: ID cards)
– Santa needs to know in which houses it is wise for him to wipe the chimney soot from his face… just in case

I don’t see why liberals should hide our glee at the BNP making fools of themselves over this. The Right has always been in support of ‘name and shame.’ They would love to name and shame a whole range of people they don’t approve of.

Well suck it up brown shirts. Have a taste of your own medicine. Not nice is it?

I want to know why the BNP are keeping details of people’s children on their membership database.

Because they run a young supporters club…

If you’re going to poison young minds it’s always best to start nice and early…

I don’t see why liberals should hide our glee at the BNP making fools of themselves over this. The Right has always been in support of ‘name and shame.’ They would love to name and shame a whole range of people they don’t approve of.

Well suck it up brown shirts. Have a taste of your own medicine. Not nice is it?

Um… because we’re supposed to be the good guys?

what’s the difference between a right-wing fascist and a left-wing fascist?

The Guardian is reporting that a DJ who was on the BNP list says they were there for research purposes only.

HA, HA, HA.

I bet there will be quite few using that defence.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

Still waiting for this classic; “I was planning on bringing them down from the inside”

chavscum: about 6 million jews? That a left-wing fascist helped us defeat a right-wing fascist?

Septicisle – in pure body count, the left-wing extremists score rather higher. I am sure Stalin would have eventually reached 6 million jews had he got round to it (and there were enough still alive within his territory), but I am not sure why the ethnic/religious character of the victims have any importance when measuring the evil committed.

Chavscum, pogsurf, et al, enough with your hypocrisy shtick. The fact is that the list wasn’t leaked by liberals, it was leaked by pissed off BNPists.

Naming and shaming is one thing; but I’m clear that publication of people’s phone numbers, addresses, etc. is totally out of order. However, if some fascist wanker want to treat other fascist wankers in this sort of wankerish fashion, then I certainly don’t feel too guilty about taking a seat on the sidelines and enjoying the fireworks.

Larry, I have no problem with the schadenfreude angle. I just wonder if some are getting a little over-excited, and forgetting that there is a moral point to data protection laws. I know this makes me sound like a wet blanket (or in internet speak a troll), but that shouldn’t be a reason to stay silent.

Perhaps if I stick with this I’ll even be labelled with the ultimate accolade, which seems to be right-wing troll. There would be a wonderful irony to that, but I won’t go into the details here.

Martin/Pogsurf/Dipper/Lobster:

You know what a troll is. A troll has nothing to do with wet blankets and more to do with mischief… and that’s in its most benign form.

If you wish your opinion to be taken seriously, choose one identity and stick to it and stop making a habit of jumping in just so you can cause a fuss in one disguise or another.

Nick: While Stalin set out to exterminate certain groups, he didn’t tend to discriminate as the Nazis so did. It really isn’t worth getting into the whole left-wing/right-wing who was worse angle, suffice to say that I think it somewhat makes the difference that without the Soviet Union there’s the distinct possibility at the very least that WW2 would have lasted hell of a lot longer.

“Hahaha. They are all the same.”

Septicisle – in pure body count, the left-wing extremists score rather higher.

Well this claim rests on collating the numbers of victims of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot together and ascribing their cause to a nebulous ‘Communism’. In each case the perpetrators of these and other crimes committed in the name of ‘really existing socialism’ were commitetd by State-capitalist regimes which replaced the previous ruling class. Stalin starved millions of peasants to death in 1930s for the same reason the British starved millions or irish peasants to death in the 1840s – to seize their grain for export, and then claimed this crime was justified by communism, much as the USA claimed the deaths of millions of Vietnamese was justified by freedom and democracy. As for the claim of a higher body-count, a similar figure which would need to be made which aggregates all the victims of Nazism, Japanese imperialism, the millenial famines of the 1890s, European colonialism, and the anti-communist dictators of Iran, Guatemala, S Korea, Chile, Argentina, Spain . . . under these circumstances a comparison of the respective crimes committed by ‘communists’ and anti-communists would reach roughly similar levels.

Communism and fascism are branches of the same ideology- socialism. Left and right-wing refer to the two extremes of socialism. These days the description is muddled. Socialists label anyone who opposes their dogma as right-wing. They do this to stigmatise any dissenters; the history of national socialism attaches negative connotations to ‘right-wing’. BNP policies have more in common with socialist rhetoric and old Labour, than say, freedom/liberal tory policies.

Its amusing to read left and right-wing socialists arguing about who killed the most.

If you seriously think that Nazis were socialists then you obviously haven’t even the slightest knowledge of what happened in Germany during their reign.

@77: If you seriously think that Nazis were socialists then you obviously haven’t even the slightest knowledge of what happened in Germany during their reign.

They called themselves Socialists.

That you assert that they were not implies that you believe you are the owner of the English language and that you have the right to define what words mean and how they are used.

Clearly this is not the case. A word means what people use it to mean.

If you look at all the people who ever called themselves “socialists” , you will realise that the interestion of all the policies they stood for is the empty set. In other words, “socialism” has been used to mean so many different and contradictory things that it is meaningless.

For that reason I do not use the word.

“Nick: While Stalin set out to exterminate certain groups, he didn’t tend to discriminate as the Nazis so did.”

I don’t see whats so bad about “discrimination” when you are already talking about mass extermination. As if indiscriminate murder is somehow conceptually more defensible.

But I think the outcome of this sort of discussion is that it doesn’t matter why you want to kill people or whether your notional ideology is left or right, only the extent to which that ideology sanctions violence in pursuit of its aims. Any ideology that constrains itself from its own goals for the sake of not committing violent is stretching towards liberalism. Neither communism/socialism or fascism do that conceptually.

‘Any ideology that constrains itself from its own goals for the sake of not committing violent is stretching towards liberalism’

Historically, liberal capitalism has been responsible for millions of deaths. In the 18-19th centuries it was imposed at bayonet-point on the non-European world, leading in some instances (such as the Tasmanian Aborigines or the California Indians) to total genocide. Later forcing the free market on agricultural economies, as in Ireland in the 1840s or India in the 1890s led to millions of deaths through famine. Later the Liberal democracies of Europe – Britain,France, Belgium, the Netherlands – sought to cling their colonies through massacre, torture and concentration camps. then the USA assumed the mantle of protecting the free world and murdered millions either directly (The Korean war, the Vietnam war, the sanctions on Iraq) or through their clients (Chang Kai-Shek, Pinochet, Somoza, Rios Mount, Diem, Park, Reza Shah, Duvalier) in the name of anti-communism. It would be very easy to produce a death count for liberal governments which easily matched or exceeded that of the USSR or Nazi Germany.

Fascinating foray into SWP-taught history there…

Do you an argument, Voltaire’s priest, or just a penchant for writing evidence-free sentences.

I’ve always thought a usefull way to ditinguish between communists and fascists is by anaology to the cybermen and the daleks (bear with me)

Cybermen – take human diversity and de-humanise it, remove emotion and replace it with a set of pre-determined, wholly logical and predicytable responses, turning everyone into identical automatons. The key point being that everyone becomes a cyberman eventually. Use all resources to benefit all cybermen. This is communism

Daleks – Dominate the universe by force, don’t bother to convert anyone, use technology and overwhelming force to either subvert into slavery or destroy any opposition. The key objective is that daleks become the only ruling class, with all resources used to perpetuate and spread dalek domination.
This is facscism

Obviously they overlap, and share many common features. The Nazis, for example, were pro-health, pro- ecology, pro-animal welfare and anti-smoking. A description of a group of people who have very much been in the ascendency in the UK since 1997……………

‘Obviously they overlap, and share many common features’

As do all dictatorial regimes, and also overlap with crimes perpetrated by ostensibly democratic governments. The British government in 1943 starved to death millions of Indians for the same reasons Stalin had starved to death millions of Ukrainians and Kazakhs 10 years previously. Neither communism nor fascism can be isolated from the historical circumstances in which they evolved.

I’ve listened to Tim’s concerns and realised that he could throw the book at me and completely expose me. For this reason I have realised that it is best for me to resolve to sock no more…

http://pogsurf.blogspot.com/2008/11/sock-no-more.html

Thanks for the ‘NSFW’ warning, Martin.

Netiquette’s not your bag, is it?

Tim, am amused that the book you threw at him was The World According to Clarkson, though. Handy it landed where it did 😉

Not sure what work you do Tim, but if you have to take tomorrow off I’m sorry.

Jennie: ouch!

Do you an argument, Voltaire’s priest, or just a penchant for writing evidence-free sentences.

No, just a certain disdain for needless history lessons… 😉

Hi,

I was one of the 12,000 on ‘The List’? I am probably not as clever as the main users of this site but just felt that I would like to give my point. I am not a skinhead and do not wear bovver boots.

I am sorry to disappoint you but I’m not at all racist and believe it or not the BNP do not stand for it.

Main parties can see that our policies make sense and when they caught hold of the ‘stop immigration’ message they immediately branded BNP members as racist. The fact that the BNP had the foresight to see that the immigration into the UK (which is only a small country really) was going to cause problems (which it now has) is now forgotten. Both Labour and the Conservatives have also recently said that immigration is becoming a problem? Does everybody now call them Racist. Of course not. That’s ww in the BNP have to put up with.

If you actually read the BNP manifesto, which is on the website, you will see that they plan to stop giving the 43 million pounds A DAY (of British Tax Payers money) to Europe and plan to use that money for our old age pensioners, some of whom currently have to choose between going hungry or freezing during the winter.

They want the death penalty brought back for child murderers. I know that sounds extreme but the BNP would not put any policies into place without a national vote. There are many policies, which are all aimed at making life for British people easier.

You should open your mind and not believe everything that this government has led everyone to believe. Nick Griffin was charged with inciting racial hatered but was found, by a court, NOT GUILTY.

I was on that list and have received abusive phone calls. Local papers have called me and I see sites, such as this one, who have made the assumption that all BNP members re the sme?

I am not racist. I am a member of the BNP and believe that the policies that they would like to put in place would be for the benefit of all British, regardless of race or colour. What the general public have been gulled into believing is wrong. Are you trying to tell me that there are absolutely no racists at all in the Labour, Conservative or Liberal party’s?

I believe that racism is a vile and disgusting thing. I also believe that this country deserves better and if I have to put up with abuse and hatred from people then so be it. I just can not wait for the day when people are not so narrow minded, open their eyes and see that the present government system just does not work.

I do apologise if you think I’ve gone on a bit but because of the engineered bad press, release of The List, and people just making assumptions it is no wonder that genuine racists think the the BNP party are for them. The BNP do not tolerate this and when proven, racists are made to give up there membership.

I believe, but I have no proof, that such an Ex Member took great offence at this. Copied the list. Went back to his original Labour Party where release of the list was planned and was supposed to make all BNP members panic? All this just before local elections are due to take place. Anyone would believe that they were afraid of being beaten in the polls?

As I say, I have no proof but this is what I believe. It hasn’t made me panic. If anything I think I believe in the party more then anything now and look forward to the day when ALL British people wake up and start to act for Britain, rather then against. No that does not mean I’m racist. I am proud to be British and proud that I live in a country that believes in a vote for everyone.

Anyway why not take a look at the BNP website, with an open mind, and then believe what you want to believe.

Best regards

Les, would you challenge racist behaviour if you saw it? Or would you just “walk on by”. Would you stick up for an Asian man who was being bullied, even if there were many more people than you trying to harm the Asian?

Les, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. Though I most definitely don’t agree with the BNP’s policies, I do believe there are many members like yourself who genuinely believe the party has ‘changed’. Indeed many such members aren’t necessarily racist. On this I give you the benefit of the doubt, and agree with you. But you completely underestimate the legacy of violence and intimidation that continues to plague the BNP to this day. My mate after going on an anti-racist campaign last year, was set upon by BNP thugs outside his house. Another day they came back for seconds, and damaged his car and smashed up his front porch. A party that prides itself on being ‘far right’, will always attract violent thugs. I’ve looked on the BNP website and comment posters show their ‘moderation’ by placing images of Alf Garnett, Enoch Powell, Gengis Khan, Adolf Hitler, and ‘death’, over user names like Napalm Death (this is not showing support for an old US thrash metal band, but the mass killing tactics used by US forces in Vietnam). These are people who are using every opportunity to express their bigotry, hatred and warped worldview.

They see themselves as victims of a ‘liberal conspiracy’, yet since last week’s leak its members have been welcome on various radio phone-in’s, and moderated forums – not to mention that the BNP are always given a party political broadcast slot at every general election. They create the myth of conspiracy to generate a victim culture. They contradict themselves. Having criticised the Human Rights Act on numerous occassions, they were more than happy to hide behind it following the membership leak.

They have a very ambiguous definition of ‘indigenous British peoples’. They seemingly incorporate all North European races. Yet they don’t mention the links between far right nationalism and anti-Irish chanting in Old firm matches. So the BNP need to clarify, do Britain’s millions of Irish descendants going back 150 years to the famine, factor into the BNP’s ‘indigenous’ definition? To say I have my doubts is a massive understatement.

Bottom line is many Brits are immigrants of some sort. We can’t deny this. It is fact. If we were racist to other diaspora communities, we are also hypocrites. British identity is important. But it’s a rolling concept, forever changing. We’re also a country built on free trade, so immigration is inevitable. It’s also hypocrisy to argue for free movement of goods, services and finance around the world – but not free movement of labour. Free trade has its faults, but if managed correctly benefits us all. And new supranational institutions should now take the role of ensuring it’s benefits are widespread, now nation states are slightly limited in performing these roles (e.g. providing welfare, regulating big business). If it does these things it could help eradicate the economic injustices that create the conditions for mass migration in the first place. If economic and physical security is what you want, then unilateral economic nationalism – as the BNP proposes – is not the answer.

Oi! Napalm Death aren’t Yank upstarts – they’re from the spiritual home of metal, the West Midlands…

Oi! Napalm Death aren’t Yank upstarts – they’re from the spiritual home of metal, the West Midlands…

Is sarcasm.

Steve, your long diatribe is almost unreadable, what point are you trying to make?

Have some people hand their memeory banks zapped? Les Hadley, ok so you are not racist. Then why support a party founded on racism? At their next meeting, have a look and see how many non white ‘englishmen’ are present. Take a look through their publications from the last how many years and see if you can see anything that would induce a non white englishman to join.
I’m afraid you have been had mate. If you feel that strongly about engerland then maybe you need to join a legitimate political party and try to make the changes you want from the inside.
I too have gone on BNP message boards, and sympathetic right wing sights and its clear from your rank and file that it is pretty much the old National Front. Les, did you used to belong to the National Front? What did you think about the National Front? Or are you a bit too young to remember them? Or how about Combat 18?
Why don’t my mates and I pop down to the next local meeting and check you all out. You will know its us as we are all black and are mostly 6 foot plus (no seriously we are!), and we prefer tea to coffee so make sure the kettle is on. Should make for an interesting hour or so. We will be welcomed won’t we, as we are all born here. BY the way, I can trace my ancestry back through slavery to the slave master and then back to England again, so I’m probably more ‘English’ than some of your fellow members. Anyway, I look forward to being welcomed into the fold – although I will draw the line at any anti Irish sentiment as my wife is of Irish descent.
See you soon.

Les, why do you make the assumption that none of us have read the BNP constitution and manifesto?

Perhaps you should look at it a bit more closely yourself. The policy of “voluntary” repatriation in particular is blatantly racist. Also, you’ll find many of us here who complain about the racism of the immigration policies of the main parties, the Labour party in particular.

Les, would you challenge racist behaviour if you saw it? Or would you just “walk on by”. Would you stick up for an Asian man who was being bullied, even if there were many more people than you trying to harm the Asian?

Hi Martin,

I have never walked on by when I’ve seen any one being vicimised. My sister is married to an Asian man and although I know he can well look after himself I would always be there to help him out if needed. My membership is purely due to my belief that ‘most of the BNP’s policies’ would benefit Britain, as a whole. Of course I don’t agree with all of there proposals but the BNP also mention that they would hold national vote on any new legislations. They would have no power over votes no matter what the colour of your skin.

Hi Ace,

No I have never been in the National Front or Combat 18, I am old enough to remember them. My thoughts on them is that I’m glad that they are not around anymore and I would certainly not be a part of anything like that. Your right the party on the whole is white, but not completly.

I can honestly say that you and your mates would be welcome at my place. I’ve always got tea in and a kettle. Thanks to ‘The List’ everyone has access to my home & mobile telephone numbers and my home address. You sound as though you are proud of being British as I am so I’m sure we would have plenty to talk about (regrdless of your hieght)

Any way thanks to you and everyone else who has given feedback on my post. I accept any feedback and points of view on this subject.

Les

Les – fair play to you for posting on this site and then coming back and replying. I applaud you for that. Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps the BNP needs more people like you to really change where they are coming from, rather than you joining another ‘mainstream’ political party.
I’m still not convinced that the BNP has changed, certainly not enough to attract black/asian people to them.
Yes I am proud to be a black Brit and I do think this country probably more than any other in Europe has dealt with racism fairly well over the last 30yrs or so. I do worry that organisations like the BNP can ferment trouble though – just like muslim extremists to some degree.
I can only hope that you stand firm in the face of the racists that do inhabit the BNP.
Yes immigration cannot be allowed unchecked – interestingly the biggest influx are Polish and other eastern europeans and they come from a background where racism is pretty prevalent. But the BNP certainly paints a picture of keeping england for white english and I think you are going to have your work cut out to change those perceptions. England is a mutli ethnic country, an island of immigrants and if you want all english to rally round the flag then you have to be preared for all colours and unfortunately the BNP has never been about that. Wen the Euros were on here and I saw kids of all colours and from all ethnic backgrounds wearing england tops it filled me with pride because that is england, that is the future of england. Its just a pity a lot of your fellow members don’t share that view.
You are obviously proud to be British, you aren’t racist, so why nail your colours to the BNP mast? Immigration is one of yur issues, europe is another but seriously, the BNP? You are going to have to wait until several generations come and go before what the BNP started out as fades from the collective memory.
Like I said, fair play for posting, but maybe is time to have a look at what other parties have to offer – yeah I know what your thinking, ‘not much’, but some of your views on certain issues would be echoed in those parties. Plus, no dodgy back stories to them.

Thanks Ace,
Some of the comments on here drove me to just putting down my thoughts. I did expect a lot of stick but on the whole the feedback has been fair and I understand why the BNP are generalised. I really do appreciate your comments. Thanks

Just heard a local radio show in which a BNP spokesperson was interviewed. He also said the BNP was not a racist party just as Les has done.
The host pressed him on this issue and asked if she was jewish, asian or black would she be welcomed. He said he was jewish so obviously they are not racist. The presenter pressed him again on what the situation would be if she were black or asian. He continued to speak about the fact that he was jewish and stonewalled the black/asian issue. The presenter, god love her, continued to press the black/asian point until the BNP chap had no choice but to answer.
His answer……….erm,…….no, blacks and asians would not beable to be members as the BNP was for British people!?
Les, if you are still reading this blog I think one of your members has gone off line. As you are an activist I hope you are as good as your word and will now have him ejected from the party.
Like I have said in other posts, the BNP are trying there best to give good PR but once again the old ways rear their ugly head. Les, I think you may now have to seriously think about leaving or are you really going to make this party non racist?

Hi Ace,
I didn’t hear the show but I believe that anyone, regardless of ethnic origin could join the BNP. As long as the person is British and wish to support the party then I can not see a problem.
I will put it to the members enquiries and see how they respond?
What I’ve been saying on here are my personal views and how I can see this party going forward….in the right direction. Infact I know that an Asian BNP member stands for election in his area. Somewhere around the Bradford area.
Thanks again for that