Are you saying that merely being homophobic should be enough to prevent someone entering the country?

In itself, no.

However, having a well documented record of calling publicly for gays to be killed – yes.

@Costigan,

What cjcjc said.

What about banning Marylin Manson

‘goddamn your righteous hand
I eat innocent meat
the housewife I will beat
the prolife will kill
what you won’t do I will…

I throw a little fit
I slit my teenage wrist
the most that I can learn
is in records that you burn’

Or
Cypress Hil…tsk tsk this is surely improper behaviour for the Queen`s garden Party

“I put my Glock to your dome and you started to cry
Boom biddy bye bye
Any last prayers before you die ”

I `m not sure that Tenacious D are what you would call socially responsible suppose we all went around pulling out each others pubic hair just because we had been slighted in love ?

‘Kyle betrayed me
And then he lied tried to hide
And I died deep inside
And you know the reason why.

I’m ‘onna kick your ass
From here to right over there.
Oh yeah muthafucka,
I’m ‘onna kick your fuckin’ derriere.
You broke the rules,
Now I’ll pull out all your pubic hair,
You muthafucka.
You muthafucka.’

Then again would you say that NWA are really encouraging the sort of positive community relations with those charged with our safety that , ideally , we would prefer

“Ice Cube:
“Fuck tha police comin straight from the underground
A young nigga got it bad ’cause I’m brown
I’m not the other color so police think
They have the authority to kill a minority”
MC Ren:
“Lights start flashin’ behind me.
But they’re scared of a nigga so they mace me to blind me
But that shit don’t work, I just laugh
Because it gives ‘em a hint not to step in my path”
Eazy-E:
“Without a gun and a badge, what do you got
A sucker in a uniform waiting to get shot
By me, or another nigga
And with a gat it don’t matter if he’s smaller or bigger.”

What I am saying here is that songs and raps are not political statements , even if they pretehnd to be and if they are …where do you stop ? Personally whenever I hear the words Get on down , I immediately drop my clerical duties and do precisely that .

Newmania – you need to look at Neil’s links.

This guy directly incites the crowd between the songs…it’s far more than just the lyrics.

Newmania,

What I am saying here is that songs and raps are not political statements , even if they pretehnd to be and if they are …where do you stop ?

That’s irrelevant: incitement to murder is not in itself political, it is a criminal offence. Bounty Killer tells his audience to kill, stone, drown, and set fire to homosexuals. As Tatchell says, it is one thing to be critical of homosexuality, it is quite another to urge people to commit violence against homosexuals for their sexuality – incitement of violence is a criminal offence.

The lyrics you quote from Marilyn Manson and Tenacious D aren’t incitement to commit violence, they are the singer saying what he’s going to do. As for NWA, they haven’t been around for some time, the lyrics you quote aren’t obvious incitement (they are condoning violence, which is different, and we could discuss whether they are really protest lyrics or not), and they were banned from several venues.

Bounty Killer and a lot of Jamaican dancehall artists all have homophobic lyrics but if you go to Jamaica this is the norm. And where do they get their homophobia from…………..the church!

If you want to attack Bounty Killer et al then really all you are doing is shooting the messenger, but the message remains the same. I know its not right and I have argued with Jamaican family who are law abiding church going citizens who all work have families etc. But when you argue the point they just throw the bible back at you. Bounty Killer and the like quote the bible in many songs, and not just the homphobic ones. The bible and church is a big thing for virtually all Jamaicans and they feel completely justified in their homophobia, from the goverment to the average Joe on the street. You can even be sent to prison for homophobic acts so thats how entrenched in society it is.
If you want to stop these types of artists coming to the UK then you have to stop a lot of bible thumping evangelical chirch folk from coming to this country. And that is not going to happen.
Rather than wasting time and resources with reggae artists it would be better dealing with the source which is the church.
As for white supremacist lyrics, well right wing bands do come in from around europe to play to the Nazis and we have our own that do like wise.

by the way, I believe NWA, with the original line up, are currently touring the UK at the moment.

Well we’re not that good at keeping murderous clerics out either.

(Step forward Ken’s pal Sheik Al-Q !)

If you want to stop these types of artists coming to the UK then you have to stop a lot of bible thumping evangelical chirch folk from coming to this country. And that is not going to happen.

Er, no the authorities don’t have to do that at all, they can and should treat each case on its merits. I’m sure you can see a difference between a popular musician and an individual churchgoer – there won’t be much interest in the latter at a music venue.

Incitement of violence is a criminal offence: “the messenger” should not be inciting violence, it is quite simple.

ukliberty – if they treat each case on its merits then Bounty would be allowed to come in to the UK. His defence would simply be ‘cultural differences’ and he would probably say he wouldn’t sing that song. I’m not sure if you saw him on The Word with Mark Lamar when this first blew up. Again and again he defended himself by using the bible, saying how he was a god fearing man etc. Yes his song boom bye bye (said a batty bwoy(slang for gay) dead) was pretty obvious in its homophobic message, but go and check pretty much any major dancehall artist out and you will find similar lyrics. They may not put them down on records for international release anymore but live they will still say the same things. And our own domestic artists will also do likewise. The only difference is the crowds at these venues will pretty much in the main have the same sentiments to gay people.
If incitement to violence in songs is the only angle you are going to take then go back to Newmania’s post because he is right. There are many, many artists, particularly hip hop artists who deal with violence. Check out home grown hip hop artists and you will hear the same sorts of things. They may not single out a particular sector of society like Bounty did, but they are all basically saying the same thing.
Its real easy to say Bounty Killer should not be allowed in but it changes nothing. Attacking the church is really the only way forward on this. Try mentioning the Curse of Ham to those church goers who are homophobic and see what they say then. You have to attack the church with the bible not the odd messenger as there are lots of messengers but basically one church.

I’m not entirely sure what your point is, Ace. Has he committed many prima facie offences of incitement of violence or not? It seems to me that he has.

Is he someone the authorities could fairly deem to be an undesirable? It seems to me that is the case.

What do ‘cultural differences’ have to do with it? Do they excuse committing criminal offences?

My point is that banning Bounty does not further the cause. He became even bigger in Jamaica and with dancehall fans after the fact. I heard a track this year where the artist was praising Bounty for that specific record and the stance he took and even sang the hook from it.
If you are saying he is inciting violence then many, many artists could be had up for the same thing.
A senior member of the Jamaican government was over here this summer and was on a radio show where he was asked about homophobia in Jamaica and whether he could see an openly gay member of parliament in the near future. He basically said not in his liftime no. He was fairly flippant with the radio host. Back in Jamaica the politicians rating went sky high and the phrase he used to brush off the idea of an openly gay politician became the lingua franca for the summer. Sorry I can’t remember who the politician was but a search on google will probably bring it up.

Your views on this are a little too simplistic. The cultural differences are that the whole country of Jamaica do not have a problem with homophobia so banning Bounty changes nothing. If you want to make a difference on this then you have to strike at the roots of the problem rather than snipping little branches. Yes you could say he has incited violence towards gay people but you could pretty much level the same thing at the Jamaican government on the grounds of collusion. But we are not going to ban the Jamaican government are we?

Well we have to start somewhere.
And if we can’t do much to counter homophobia in Jamaica at least we can do something about it here…

Part of the worry is that this sort of culture is not simply an imported novelty.It is growing in London at least . My brother, who teaches in a typical London Comp tells me that homophobia amongst the boys is unrelenting . To me it seems to have increased in direct proportion to the politically correct measures designed to move society the other way. This rather goes in tandem with a brutal attitude to women again in stark contrast to the world of Harperson and her delicate antennae for any remnant of formal discrimination against high flying careerists
I read that girls are now out performing boys in school, university and even in the Nursery. My diagnosis is that this is a direct result of the foolish Liberal ideas that are rife in the teaching colleges and the attempt by the left to feminise society.
From music to pornography to lads mags it seems , albeit impressionistically , to me, that there is visceral reassertion of maleness in an ugly form. Again I blame the undervaluing of properly matured male qualities by the statist and controlling culture we have developed .

Basically Labour /Liberals want us all to be girls and thats why we have this primitive bawling to put up with

Your views on this are a little too simplistic. The cultural differences are that the whole country of Jamaica do not have a problem with homophobia so banning Bounty changes nothing. If you want to make a difference on this then you have to strike at the roots of the problem rather than snipping little branches. Yes you could say he has incited violence towards gay people but you could pretty much level the same thing at the Jamaican government on the grounds of collusion. But we are not going to ban the Jamaican government are we?

Why, are the Jamaican government planning to tour this country, inciting people to commit criminal offences?

Your views on this are a little too simplistic.

I think this is a simple case: I don’t want people here who promote and incite violence.

What Jamaicans get up to in Jamaica is their own business – I would prefer them to not be as violently homophobic as is reported, but there’s nothing I can do about it.

What we can do is send the message to our own country that such behaviour is unacceptable.

“What do ‘cultural differences’ have to do with it? Do they excuse committing criminal offences?”

Er yes, in many scenarios it does according to some on the left, although only “culture” in the narrow sense of ethnicity/religious belief. Discriminating against people on the basis of class culture (smoking, binge drinking, eating “unhealthy food) or temporal culture (we must all bear the sins of empire even though it happened in a very different culture) is apparently ok but that’s designer cultural relativism for you.

but why not just attack the root – the church? They are the ones that are promoting this and this is something that we can do – in our own country. Bounty Killer, Buju Banton and the like will always say that their homophobia is justified in the name of god. And church folk will nod along in silent agreement – just look at what has been going on in the Anglican church. But if the church was to change its stance then it becomes harder for people to use the bible as an excuse.

The church once justified slavery with the bible but through pressure and arguement they had to back away and revise their interpretation of the tracts they were using. Now only the KKK and the like still use that old interpretation. Admittedly its a tough challenge to get the church to re think its interpretation of certain tracts but it can be done.

Like I keep saying, banning the odd dancehall artist from these shores is really just a way of making one self feel a little better for a short period of time. Better to keep the indignation longer and continue to attack the root. Or I guess you could do both but no one has suggested that here yet.

“What do ‘cultural differences’ have to do with it? Do they excuse committing criminal offences?”

Er yes, in many scenarios it does according to some on the left, although only “culture” in the narrow sense of ethnicity/religious belief.

According to law against incitement of criminal offences, though, do cultural differences make a… difference?

but why not just attack the root – the church?

Why not do both? If someone is inciting violent offences they should be investigated and if in the public interest prosecuted.