Aye, it’s an odd one, because I know that the ZanuLiebores are trying to flood our country immigrants so as to achieve…some devious end or other…but then, why is woman whose husband was murdered by Mugabe – and who was raped trying to escape the country – being packed off back to Zimbabwe? And why was a cancer patient deported to a place where she’d clearly get no treatment? And why has a refugee tortured himself in an attempt to avoid being deported to a place we’re assured poses no risk?

S’a mystery, innit.

Ben

What’s more, you would have thought that actual right-wing free marketeers should be in favour of open borders, would you not?

“Shred apart” is tautologous.

Goodness me, Frank Field is racist now, is he?

Is either side capable of conceding that large scale immigration has both costs and benefits?

And without screaming “racist”?

You could be a foreigner, or you could just be unemployed because one of THEM took your job, in which case you’re probably at least partly to blame for the knife crime/binge drinking/hoody problem.

My own research, frighteningly, suggests that according to a PA report on the MigrationWatch statistics, foreigners have actually taken more than all the jobs since 2008. I suppose that means they’ve taken a job, and then another one, and then removed a UK-born employee from their job and taken that too.

cjcjc: “Goodness me, Frank Field is racist now, is he?”

Sweetheart, Frank Field was racist *then*.

If you call reasonable and moderate people racists then you suck any remaning force from this over used term of abuse .Laurie Penny is becoming a prematurely superannuated hippy . Why else rehash a very stale association of right wing politicians with racism . In fact it is the left who are quick to play the race card
Nick Coen tells us that 35% of Labour supporters give the BNP as their second choice Party. The issue was until recently the top worry of the electorate . Thus even as Liam Byrne, the ex immigration minister claimed immigration is a “vortex” issue sucking in disparate concerns and that a cap was ..”out of the question” .Phil Woolas said “ On a commonsense level there has to be a limit . You have to have a policy that thinks about the population ..etc.”
Margaret Hodge has moaned about the darkies shinning up the housing list , Hazel Blears made dark allusions to neighbourhoods changing to quickly , Brown lied about British jobs for British and the attack on the Poles in Crewe was a disgrace. Odd isn`t it from the very Party that has quintupled the rate of immigration since 97
Its about the unhappy alliance between the progressive toffs and the working class they despise .The BNP polled 5.35 % across London, it has 55 Councillors it is posing real threat . Look at Stoke on Trent here ten years ago Labour had all 60 seats . Now it has 4 wards in a loss to independent and others amounting to a working class revolt .Or Barnsley where the BNP polled 21%,.Have another look at he Ealing result , by the way, serious inroads were made by the BNP ,
Unnoticed at the time in the crowing about the ( first )Brown bounce .Labour’s support among C2 DE demographics was at a lower level in 2005 than the crushing defeat of 1983. This is why we get the plan to bond Asian families as guarantors that visiting relatives will actually go home . Nice work Labour

Conservatives are not racists .We are concerned to maintain the cultural coherence and continuity of the country ,against any rapid upheaval and aware of the costs , usually born by the under privileged. Few of those who prefer foreigners to British people send their own children to schools collapsing under the strain of eight languages
Immigration IMHO has been encouraged at absurd levels for slash and burn profits and to avoid the problem of getting 2 mio off their permanent sicky and back into work. It is also an electoral strategy in the South where 2mio of the proposed ( and now forgotten) 3,000,000 new homes would be occupied by immigrants according to government figures . That Labour should have followed this cynical policy and at the same time seek to capitalise on growing resentment is perhaps the foulest part of the stinking heart of New Labour .

My contempt is immeasurably deep .

Newmania:

Since you refer to people who disagree with your conservative position as being, “those who prefer foreigners to British people,” (which is a big old strawman to start with), does that mean we can accurately describe your position as preferring British people to foreigners?

we can accurately describe your position as preferring British people to foreigners?

That is not my “position” but I do (except I quite like Frech women and I can`t stand the Scots )

Few of those who prefer foreigners to British people send their own children to schools collapsing under the strain of eight languages

Multilingual schools generally do OK: the worst educational outcomes are for white working class British-born children, with black working class British-born children close behind.

A kid who doesn’t speak English but whose parents want him to learn and believe he should have an education is easier to teach, and does better, than a kid who speaks (some approximation towards) English and whose parents don’t see the point in education or respect teachers.

And this isn’t anything new, or New Labour-created, or 1960s-family-breakdown-y. George Orwell, 1937: Working people often have a vague reverence for learning in others, but where ‘education’ touches their own lives they see through it and reject it. The only difference is, in 1937 it was possible to be illiterate and innumerate but still take home a decent wage.

Newmania “can’t stand the Scots” and openly prefers “British people” to foreigners (except for French women, who give him the horn).

But you are NOT allowed to call him a racist, OK?

Everyone got that?

Good.

Newmania:

“That is not my “position” but I do (except I quite like Frech women and I can`t stand the Scots )”

Not often you see people admitting to xenophobia so openly, so that’s refreshingly honest. How do you define ‘British’?

Well he excludes the Scots for a start. That much is clear.

The racist.

Whoops! Sorry, sorry, sorry.

I meant “differently tolerant.”

openly prefers “British people” to foreigners …..

I `m just a wild man aren’t I .Yes thats right look upon the face of evil ! I openly prefer British people to foreigners , quite openly and without any of the agonising guilt that any moral human being ought to feel

(Having said that , the Welsh are a bit shifty and have perverse sex lives. I `m not actually mad keen on people from Yorkshire and Livrepudlains are only about 10 %as funny as they think they are . So its patchy come to think about it I `m not that keen on short people it’s a sort of apart height system)

As to a definition I `d have to think about that, nothing to do with skin pigment if thats what you are hoping I think its something that would need a poem of great beauty and depth to accomplish but meanwhile the legal definition will do.

I prefer people who punctuate correctly to foreigners AND British people .

“As to a definition I `d have to think about that, nothing to do with skin pigment if thats what you are hoping ”

Nope, I was hoping for an answer. Racism and xenophobia are both pretty similar in that they both rely on stereotypes and sweeping generalisations rather than reason. Do you think your xenophobia clouds your judgement of the immigration issue?

Newmania – you’re only about 1 per cent as funny as you think you are. So the Scousers have a massive humour advantage over your pathetic self.

Oh – and the rest of us avoid “agonising guilt” over racism by not being racists in the first place, prevention being better than a cure and all that.

And also because racists/xenophobes are unlikeable wankers.

“Few of those who prefer foreigners to British people send their own children to schools collapsing under the strain of eight languages”

Newmania is challenging those who support mass immigration to send their children to the schools that are suffering the most from this influx. He knows that the left are refusing to educate their precious offspring in such schools.

My aunt works as a classroom assistant at an inner London primary school. The white working-class have been replaced by migrants from abroad and by the wealthy middle-class. There are no white English children in her class, yet the catchment is mixed LA housing and wealthy white middle-class. The ward and constituency is a Labour stronghold. The Labour voting white middle-class refuse to send their children to such a school. They either play the faith school game, send little Trotsky to private school or move to the provinces for a ‘whiter’ education.

We KNOW you are hypocrites.

Couldn’t agree more.

Except…hang on…hang on! ‘apart height!’ That’s a joke! Look at Newmania, he made a funny!

No, seriously man, this is meant to be LIBERAL conspiracy. Even in jest, xenophobic, racist views are not something we’re going to be sympathetic towards. Sorry.

Chavscum: absolute rubbish. Who says that all of the left are rich enough to send their kids to private/faith schools? Where did that come from?

chavscum:

“We KNOW you are hypocrites.”

Maybe that’s your problem. You think you know stuff based on odd stereotypes.

Discounting for the pejorative tone these are required for any consideration of groups of people . You say xenophobia . I say loyalty I might also say love ( which you would call prejudice ) it can be terribly irrational I`m told and colours all sorts of otherwise rational decisions . Do you imagine that everything can be reduced to a EU style eight ton volume of verbiage ? I have a primitive affection for my family , my friends and what I take to be my wider group the “British”. This ‘evil’ at which you sneer, has been somewhat handy in the past, and thus from an ordinary affection for my home and countrymen I am “similar to a racist “ . I think you are talking something very similar to bollocks and I speak as a husband to a black working class British born woman and a father of three mixed race sons.( Of whom I am irrationally fond to the point of unreason)

Reason pah ! This 5cc ;of senses he’ll contrive
A sixth, to contradict the other five,
And before certain instinct, will prefer
Reason, which fifty times for one does err;
Reason, an ignis fatuus in the mind,
Which, leaving light of nature, sense, behind,
Pathless and dangerous wandering ways it takes
Through error’s fenny bogs and thorny brakes;
Whilst the misguided follower climbs with pain
Mountains of whimseys, heaped in his own brain;

( Rochester ish)

( Is Mrs Hindrance flirting with me ?)

@Newmania:

Er, no. There’s not enough beer in the world. And it’s Colonel Hindrance to you, sonny.

@chavscum:

You appear to have regurgitated this, without realising it is satire:

http://notesonrhetoric.blogspot.com/

“In negotiating the so-called ‘blogosphere’ you will need to be aware of certain obligatory rhetorical tools with which to rebut opponents. The following are a few I have noted at random, and can be used in comments boxes or when critiquing a publication:

“The Left (ii) An umbrella organization consisting exclusively of students on the one hand, and, on the other, middle-class people who like hosting dinner parties. Contrary to a lingering misconception, The Left has nothing to do with the working class, who are actually quite content with how things are. (However, ‘while The Left are undoubtedly a laughably impotent bunch of middle-class Students Waving Placards, they are also and simultaneously a Sinister Worldwide Plot, all powerful, with tentacles reaching into every orifice of the civic body, working in cahoots with global Islamofascism etc etc etc ‘.”

Who says that all of the left are rich enough to send their kids to private/faith schools? Where did that come from?

True, but those who can afford to do so, do so.
NB faith schools are not fee-paying.

If you don’t have to compete for work or for housing/education/health services then of course you are a winner.
And we musn’t forget that the immigrants themselves are winners.
But are you suggesting that there are no losers?

Newmania:

Ohhh-kay.

I know you’re given to strange rambling, but if you’re trying to have an honest discussion, it would help if you didn’t put words in people’s mouths or put quotation marks around things other people haven’t said. I wouldn’t call love ‘prejudice’, and you’re the only person to use the word ‘evil’.

But since your approach to immigration is (I think – it’s difficult to pick out what you mean) driven by an admitted irrational preference for British people (however you’d like that spun), I think we’re done here.

Newmania, rearranging the equation LOVE = 1?HATE does not make your argument any less discriminative.

“They either play the faith school game, send little Trotsky to private school or move to the provinces for a ‘whiter’ education.

We KNOW you are hypocrites.”

“We”? Are you speaking for the entirety of the international proletariat?

In any case, never mind “sending kids“, I go to a state school and can confidently inform you that you’re talkin’ shoite.

Ben

Whatever happened to “respectfully” Ben?
I liked that! 🙂

Whereabouts are you at school by the way?
I assume London as you are a Boris watcher.
But Tower Hamlets or Bexley?

“I have a primitive affection for my family , my friends and what I take to be my wider group the “British”.”

The fact that you can like people outside of your family group, or even your friendship group, simply because they’re British….but put people down outside of the “British” group because although they are “human” they’re not in one of your arbitrary constructs of(non)-relationship…shows exactly why what you suffer from is xenophobia.

Rambling ? I quoted Rochester’s satire on Man and Reason aptly I thought , you repeat your original facile conceit now revealed as shallow twaddle . We are done here because you are justifiably ashamed of your inability to follow what I have said 5CC . Nonetheless out of the infinite love I am have for my fellow subjects of her majesty I forgive you your barbarous illiterate ignorance and girlish sulking .

XXX

“Having said that , the Welsh are a bit shifty and have perverse sex lives”

Being welsh, I can confirm this is indeed the case.

However you’ve once again failed to address the main point of the post, which is that Migration Watch have lied about the impact of migration yet again in an attempt to scare people with Hysterical nonsense.

“Whatever happened to “respectfully” Ben?
I liked that! :-)”

Heh, it was to remind me to be nice. The internet has a terrible effects on one’s courtesy; where else would one label someone a f(udg)ing c(li)nt for disagreeing with one’s views regarding welfare reform.

“Whereabouts are you at school by the way?
I assume London as you are a Boris watcher.”

No, not London (at the moment, at least). That’s why I write on jobs and general policy; it would be sickeningly Littlejohnish of me to pass lofty judgement on congestion fees that I didn’t have to pay.

Respectfully (;o)),

Ben

shows exactly why what you suffer from is xenophobia.
Which is as sulky 5CC said similar to racism .

.Don’t any of you lot support England ? Is that practically racist ? Surely to goodness even if you are imperturbably indifferent to this country and its people you cannot actually like the French .No-one likes the French , the French don’t like the French ?

Newmania:

This

That’s all.

It’s just this idea, Newmania, that a stranger that you don’t know at all from Britain is someone that you would stand up for more than a stranger that you don’t know at all from outside the EU. It’s bizarre, and it’s tribal. This is seen in arguments by people such as yourself that lambaste “immigrants” for taking jobs without first asking or accepting why some British people don’t *TAKE* those jobs first as they would be able to.

The ultimate hilarity is that those like you then start picking on British people as lazy layabouts scrounging off the state in their quest to become baby raping kidnappers without seeing the utter irony in what you’re saying.

The problem you have may not be Xenophobia, I take it back, you just are vehemently and needlessly opposed to people that stand against or interfere with your world view, it just so happens that resorting to xenophobia is your first port of call in the priorities of trying to deny other people their quality of life despite extremely little evidence (if any) that in getting such quality of life they are lessening the quality of yours.

@chavscum

“They either play the faith school game, send little Trotsky to private school or move to the provinces for a ‘whiter’ education.

We KNOW you are hypocrites.”

Zzzzzz.

Ah, ‘chavscum’. Like a monkey with a minature cymbal, all you do is make an inconsequential noise over and over and over again…

I see the right-wing trolls are squealing again to demonstrate their relevance, while their main think-tank has been exposed yet again as talking absolute shite.

Newmania I notice no-one’s asked you (tsk tsk) what exactly you mean when you say you “prefer British people to foreigners”? Is this a political or personal view – do you “like” British people more than “foreigners”? What about people whose origin lies in other countries who have acquired citizenship – do you like them a little bit or only if they start acting like those two couples in Goodness Gracious Me who changed their names and tried to adopt some idealised “British culture”? Or maybe this is exclusively political – so do you believe that foreign nationals should be back of the queue for NHS treatment? Is that regardless of medical need?

Come on, be specific.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

(By that big old urban pinko, Emma Lazarus)

Newmania,

So far you prefer the French, hate Northeners, the Scots and debateably, depending on your sexual proclivities, the Welsh.

What did that Welsh woman or person or sheep (who knows) ever do to you? The folk of Auchtermuchty demand an answer. Preferably with lewd and exact details so they can be suitably shocked!

Clearly, your medical treatment, combined with writing for dubious think tanks will leave you with little time to respond. But we’ll be waiting, with bated breath, on the High Street.

(wonder what bated breath looks like)

Newmania I notice no-one’s asked you (tsk tsk) what exactly you mean when you say you “prefer British people to foreigners”? Is this a political or personal view – do you “like” British people more than “foreigners”?

Both .Conservatism is distinct from Liberalism which ,in that it means anything , is derived from Enlightenment rationalists , it is far from socialism .Conservatism grew more naturally over time ,it encompasses the whole emotional and spiritual man not simply the rational creature of socialist and Liberal imagination .Whereas Liberal is tempted to call loyalties irrational ,and therefore bad, a Conservative makes no such judgement . He is more impressed that we live in peace and freedom at all and elements such as nationalist attachments which have in the past been highly beneficial are not to be discarded lightly. Liberals find this sort of loyalty inherently unappealing. This is why they are the most pro EU Party, the most internationalist the keenest of mass immigration and least loyal to this country and its people as against any people chosen at random.
On the torrential rate of immigration and health tourism and so on .My own view is that tolerance is obviously a good thing as is freedom of movement . Set against that is the coherence of the country which , to us , is a home as well as just a anonymous patch of ground as a Liberal would conceive it . The dominant philosophy of this country might be called Communitarian , like a club which in some sense you pay into in order to obtain privileges . This is why the concept of human rights is so alien despite those rights being ours anyway. I approve if these feelings and I want to see them manifested in Policy broadly. I would like to see a cap and numbers reduced over time to something like 97 levels which were already historically high I would like the EU snout out of many areas and a re assertion of ‘our’ culture as the dominant one in ‘our’ country .
It is not easy to define who is British but we are not frantic tidiers and codifiers in true Liberal style .There is a rather wonderful passage in ”The Wind In The Willows” about the tiny invisible strings that pull, the half heard the whispers of home home home . They are made of nursery rhymes , sights and sounds , a language a shared set of assumptions a Byzantine class consciousness and I could go on and on ( usually do) All of these things go into making the “we” we refer to when we ask what should “we” do ? If there is no longer any “us” and that would, appear to be the wish of some here , a selfish meaningless world lies ahead .
I will clearly not fit in I shall have to be a romantic attractive outsider (yummy)

Newmania is getting an unfair treatment here (slightly), it’s not racist to not like the Scots, because the Scots are a nation, not a race. There’s nothing genetic about being Scottish, in the sense that there is something genetic about being black, or East Asian, or of Jewish ancestry.

Automatically not liking someone because they’re Scottish is fairly stupid, but it’s not racist, unless you have some ridiculous belief that the Scots are descended from Celtic stock while the English are descended from the Normans or some such b.s. Most people don’t.

also more importantly it’s not clear to me that it’s worse than not liking someone because they’re, oh I don’t know, a chav, or a Tory, or middle class, or Christian, or a Republican voter.

Now I know technically you can “choose not to be” all of those things, but realistically, you can’t. If you’re born into a certain family you’re probably going to be a chav. A different one and you’re probably going to be Christian. “Being a Republican voter” is as much a part of some peoples identity as is being Scottish or English. And in fact it’s not unheard of for people to change their national identity.

People have this abhorrence of discrimination based on nation-of-origin which they don’t have about other forms of discrimination based on appearance or background or beliefs or religion. So Newmania gets bashed for being xenophobic, fair play (although he’s obviously yanking your chains about this – you’re only egging him on) but then a certain commentator on this thread is on record as saying some analogous things about Tories and as saying “A Tory is a Tory is a Tory” (sorry to pick on you, you-know-who-you-are, it’s just the example that sprang to mind) which I’d say is just as bad.