“Israel is not behaving like a civilised nation”

It clearly is not a civilised nation.

“that inevitably raises the question of whether it should be treated as one”

See above.

The Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) rebels have killed 189 people in four days of raids on villages in the northeast of the Democratic Republic of Congo last week,- .- Cholera caused by nutty black Marxism claimed another 1400 in Zimbabwe . Where is the outrage ? On the same blank sheet of paper where outrage at the Muslim genocide in the Lebanon was not written
On the other hand a chance to have ago at the Jews who have , most unreasonably , taken exception to having bombs lobbed at their children and you cannot wait to get out there with assorted loons probably including Ken Livingstone who soaked the anti Jew vote for all it was worth .

As I understand it you are saying that is because you expect better from the Jews and you may now withdraw you expectation with all the might of the NUJ to back it up *mirth*

Well that’s nice , you have fun.

Cholera caused by nutty black Marxism claimed another 1400 in Zimbabwe . Where is the outrage ?

Here, here, here, here, here, here, here…I could go on, but it would be very boring.

Besides, we have strong diplomatic links with Israel – they are, apparently, ‘our’ ally – and thus their actions are of particular concern, because we can – in a very minor way – have an influence.

Ben

Newmania,
is that your compassion for humanity or your inverted snobbery coming through?

Where is the outrage? Not even Superman has enough energy to remain outraged through every new instance of outrageous action. What remains is a weariness.

“taken exception to having bombs lobbed at their children”

so then I suppose you’ll take no exception to Palestinians taking exception to bombs being dropped on their children? no? ah.

the wonders of circular “logic”.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&forumID=5857&edition=1&ttl=20081229235025&#paginator

go on, have fun. perhaps you might be surprised that this comes from the second most recommended:

“Number of Israelis killed by Hamas rockets since the end of the truce and until the Israeli strike: zero. Number of Palestinians killed by Israeli strike: 200 and counting. A proportionate response? Only to those who are deluded, racist or brainwashed.”

The irony is, history shows that brutal repression is never a solution. The tactic simply doesn’t work, as Tel Aviv will find out to its cost.

The problem is, it should have realised this ages ago if the political leaders had any sense. Sometimes, even our own government makes more sense than the Israelis on this issue.

To be honest, I’m not sure it’s a peaceful solution Israel is after. Anyone could have predicted that such airstrikes would only provoke more rocket attacks and cause more chaos: perhaps this is what Israel wanted all along, as it provides false justification for further airstrikes.

All political leaders work to something which in their own minds, if not ours, equates to logic. Israel has now promised a ‘war to the bitter end’; the complete destruction of Gaza might not make sense to anyone else in the world, but it’s entirely possible Israeli leaders believe it is the best way to continue its own war-effort.

Or perhaps finish it…

ooops

Ben you arse , I didn`t say it was not reported I just said that Lib Con do not bother with it .Only the Jews get their wonky moral microscope

If the USA’s experience is any indication, killing civilians can make the world really, really angry. The Americans and Brits were killing Iraqis at an unbelievable rate in the early years of the Iraq occupation, and for that Bush actually got a shoe thrown at him. Ouch! Feel the anger!

But then all you have to do is elect Obama and the world will love you again. After all, you can’t stay angry for long at a country that could nuke your continent back into the stone age before breakfast.

One might equally say Newmania that there are right-wingers who always (and exclusively) leap to the automatic defence of Israeli administrations, no matter what they do. This I think is one of those occasions. How you could possibly think it’s a proportionate use of force to rain down death on a giant open prison like the Gaza strip, killing Palestinian people at the rate of over 100-1 relative to a gaggle of terrorists’ inept rocket fire, simply is beyond me.

The comparison with the DRC or Zimbabwe is a fallacy: neither state is portrayed by western governments as a model for democracy in the region, neither is routinely feted by US Presidential candidates, and neither is a key strategic “ally” of ours. If a nation holds itself up as a liberal democracy then it should be held to the standards by which we expect liberal democracies to operate. That is categorically not a standard which Israel is meeting in this instance.

Alan – If someone was chucking rockets at your children , what would you consider a proportional response ? Would you want to take international opinion into account or would you want it stopped by whatever means it took ?

Have you stopped killing Palestinian children yet, Newmania?

Would you then have supported air strikes against West Belfast during the Irish Troubles, Newmania? Or heck, if “whatever necessary” does it, then why not go the whole hog and use B52s to carpet bomb the place? That’d stop the terrorists dead in their tracks, and I guess you could simply put the 100% civilian casualty rate down to collateral damage…

I mean, come on.

This reminds me a little bit of what happened between Russia and Georgia earlier this year. Little Georgia started with its big neighbour Russia and when Russia defended (in a manner which left Georgia with no doubt of what would happen if they ever did it again) the world rallied around Georgia screaming how bad and ugly Russia was being.

The Israeli’s have done a lot of horrific things but they didn’t organise to throw eighty rockets from Gaza into Israel. No other country in the world would tolerate this. I heard on the BBC news that thank G-d there were some Arab states now saying that whoever supported these rockets being fired – naming Iran as the main supplier – are trying to push their war agenda. I believe that the Hamas was given ample warning to cease fire but they didn’t stop the rockets – what is Israel supposed to do when they refuse to stop?

I believe the palestinian arabs are being sold out by their fello Muslim brothers to be used as pawns in a massive global jihad. I’m so pleased that at least some parts of the world are opening their eyes to reality.

The Israeli’s have done a lot of horrific things but they didn’t organise to throw eighty rockets from Gaza into Israel.

No, they ‘organised to throw’ hundreds of bombs from Israel into Gaza. Which is presumably OK, right?

Israel asked them to stop didn’t they? They refused to listen – didn’t they? Please tell me – what was Israel supposed to do?

I read only condemnation here and no other ideas of how to handle this situation?

Israel asked them to stop didn’t they? They refused to listen – didn’t they? Please tell me – what was Israel supposed to do?

Lots of people also asked Israel to end the blockade and let essential supplies through, like medical equipment and small things like food… but what happened to people like yourself then?

“Please tell me – what was Israel supposed to do?”

Let’s start with ‘nothing’. Had Israel done nothing, several hundred fewer Palestinians would now be dead, and no more Israelis would be dead. This seems like a better result for all concerned?

Have you stopped killing Palestinian children yet, Newmania?

I haven’t killed anyone that I know of ? ( Unless I `m a sleep murderer )

Would you then have supported air strikes against West Belfast during the Irish Troubles, Newmania? Or heck, if “whatever necessary” does it, then why not go the whole hog and use B52s to carpet bomb the place? That’d stop the terrorists dead in their tracks, and I guess you could simply put the 100% civilian casualty rate down to collateral damage…
I mean, come on.

Mr A Thomas you are vexing me …..
The IRA were encouraged at every turn by the bleeding heart left as romantic Marxist revolutionaries without their nauseating fetshising of big boys and their guns they would not have had as much reason to bomb innocents on the mainland .A odour of betrayal and shame hangs about your words right off the bat then and here you are encouraging carnage right now . The hand wringing gutless Liberal surrender monkeys are at least one of the audiences this is played out for.
Moving on , the Irish situation was entirely different in that it was an exclusively terrorist operation albeit with many more sympathisers than was admitted . The IRA were not openlly drawing up ordinances with a range to attack Liverpool and Manchester at will and N Ireland is not part of a pan continental loose alliance with the objective of sinking Britain into the North Sea . Neither vitally , is it beyond our operational jurisdiction. By the way for all that I hate the IRA I do not think they wouid have used their own people as expendable corpses fopr a propoganda war
Just how silly a comparison that is ( why not bomb Tower Hamlets while you are at it ), I is shown by the “Threat “ of a ground operation from Israel. We were , of course on the ground at all times in NI , and under the jurisdiction of fully functioning British Government of which N Ireland is part . I have little doubt the Israelis would prefer that Hamas were entertaining us with their dirty protests in cell block H .Sadly it is another world as you ought to admit

‘No, they ‘organised to throw’ hundreds of bombs from Israel into Gaza. Which is presumably OK, right?’

Was it ok for the allies to out kill the Nazis , you would think it would be an obvious yes but John’s logic allows for some doubt in that he equates the efficient wining of a war with moral failure on that basis alone . This is not an exaggeration . Bomber Harris and Heros of Bomber Command bravely slaughtered German civilians notably at Dresden and by doing so helped win the war as much as anyone . He has only just about been forgiven by some and not by all.

*A odour of betrayal and shame hangs about your words right off the bat then and here you are encouraging carnage right now . The hand wringing gutless Liberal surrender monkeys are at least one of the audiences this is played out for.*

I may have got a bit carried away there…ahem

A odour of betrayal and shame hangs about your words right off the bat then and here you are encouraging carnage right now .

I was doing my GCSEs at the time of the 1994 IRA ceasefire, and therefore had spent most of the 1980s watching He-Man and Thundercats as opposed to encouraging the IRA.

You on the other hand are actively cheerleading for killings happening as we both write, today, right now, in Gaza. You and your right-wing blowhard friends (oh the interesting provenance of your phrase “surrender monkeys”), if anyone, are the ones who should be hanging your heads in shame.

“The hand wringing gutless Liberal surrender monkeys are at least one of the audiences this is played out for.”

We are in your shadow, Nu-mania. It takes a lot of guts to comment on actions that’ll have precisely no effects upon you.

“without their nauseating fetshising of big boys and their guns”
“Was it ok for the allies to out kill the Nazis , you would think it would be an obvious yes”

Commenter, react against thyself.

Kadima , Likud and Hamas show that the argument is now dominated by extremists . The inability of Fatah to provide competent and corrupt free government in Gaza is part of the problem- hence the rise of Hamas. Iran’s support for Hamas amd Hizbollah is pouring petrol on the flames. There is going to have to be a verifiable reduction in violence and increase in competent government. This means no Hamas rockets and smuggling of weapons into Gaza; aid to reach Gaza and reduction in time spent at check points by Palestinians.

Charlie,

Yes.

But.

I do not see an adequate response to the escalation of violence, nor an answer to it, in what you had to say.

Is it not Hamas, now in Gaza? Is that not what has to be dealt with?

You sound a tad like an Israeli, and Israeli’s don’t appear capable of solving their own problems.

Your point about extremists controlling the agenda is well taken.

Israel will have to start dismantling some settlements; FATAH become a competent and corrupt free governing party and Hamas stop firing rockets into Israel. The rise of Hamas is largely due to the corruption and incompetence of Fatah. Moderate Israeli opinion has not been able to stop the construction of settlements which has increased water consumption. Because the moderate/middle ground has failed on both sides then the extremists on both sides have taken over.

The anger on the arab street is part due to the poverty created by incompetent ad corrupt political leadership.

Hamas firing rockets into Israel from positions adjacent to homes just shows they are happy for people to be killed by the Israelis in order to obtain the World’s sympathy. Israel is no longer run by the Moshe Dayan type of soldiers who were a moderating influence on the more extreme Israelis. In reality, is the conflict now run by extremists who actually want conflict because they thrive on it ?