Well, that’s one way of stimulating the economy I suppose –

(and I already know its not funny!)

Congratulations for one of our political leaders to actually make a stand, +1 reputation to Mr Clegg.

http://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/Gaza-eu-israel-association-agreement.html

The Green Party’s leader, Caroline Lucas, has also condemned Israel’s actions and has called for tough action in response.

it would also appear that the yanks (democrats) are now looking into their arms export control act and the violations that Israel have now incured. So perhaps we will see a few more government MPs coming out a bit further – although don’t hold your breath!

Considering that Britain killed huge numbers of civilians in Iraq, shouldn’t it also stop supplying weapons to its own army?

Thanks Rayyan, missed that.

Given that Israel gets most of its arms from the USA, a British arms embargo would be merely symbolic. What Britain should do is:

1. give political asylum to all Israeli conscripts who refuse to take part in Israeli repression in the occupied territories.

2. over the long term, if Israeli behaviour doesn’t improve, then refuse to trade with Israel, and back this up by allowing Israelis (decent ones, not religious nutjobs) to live and work in the EU. This would likely cause a brain drain in Israel threastening the long-term viability of that state.

If you want to stop the weapons supply to Israel, why don’t you do the same with whomever is supplying the rockets to gaza?

The bias is unbelievable!

If you want to stop the weapons supply to Israel, why don’t you do the same with whomever is supplying the rockets to gaza?

OPEN GOAL ALERT

Sorry – I don’t get this? – OPEN GOAL ALERT

Sorry – I don’t get this?

Well, petitioning your MP and the British Government to stop selling arms to the Israelis is a strategy that probably won’t have much effect, but since they are required to pretend that they’re paying attention, your voice will at least be heard.

On the other hand, most of the rockets fired from Gaza are homemade, with a few Iranian-bought Grad missiles into the bargain. You could try writing to Hamas or Tehran and asking them nicely to quit it, but since the Israelis have been pounding the hell out of southern Gaza for years and still haven’t stopped the flow of munitions…

You see what I mean – a lot of noisy bloggers in London aren’t going to achieve with polite emails what the IDF haven’t been able to achieve with all the billions of dollars worth of flashy whizz-bang the Americans have to offer.

What you’re saying here is another variation on Why didn’t you lot march to protest the Mumbai attacks?, to which the obvious answer is Because it would’ve been totally pointless – we might as well have sat at home shouting into a bucket.

Which is, coincidentally, exactly what I think people raising this ridiculous argument would like us all to do whenever a democratically elected government is bombing a heavily-populated urban area.

Batman, that’s exactly the point – if talking to Hamas doesn’t work, if writing to them doesn’t work, if warning them doesn’t work – what do you propose the Israeli’s do? They have to use their own rockets to destroy Hamas rockets – and people get hurt on both sides. If they stop making their rockets – then Israel wouldn’t need rockets either.

Leave the letters and let these MPs rather spend their time trying and get through to some Palestinian officials who have a bit of sense and are tired of seeing their family members die.

“atman, that’s exactly the point – if talking to Hamas doesn’t work, if writing to them doesn’t work, if warning them doesn’t work”

You’ve confused the issue. *us* as independent and completely removed individuals living in the UK won’t change anything to do with Hamas. That’s not at all to say that Israel can’t, and indeed history has shown that they can, the two sides just don’t talk for long enough to make anything stick.

“Leave the letters and let these MPs rather spend their time trying and get through to some Palestinian officials who have a bit of sense and are tired of seeing their family members die.”

This statement seems to show perhaps the true strategy of this…kill enough Palestinians until they emotionally (or politically) can’t take any more and have to cede to Israeli wishes.

Lee

“This statement seems to show perhaps the true strategy of this…kill enough Palestinians until they emotionally (or politically) can’t take any more and have to cede to Israeli wishes.”

None of this needs to happen – they just need to stop throwing rockets – why isn’t the whole world putting pressure on them to stop rather then putting pressure on Israeli’s to stop. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

what do you propose the Israeli’s do?

I suppose they could bomb the seaports, bridges, petrol stations, supermarkets, random cars, schools etc. and keep their fingers crossed that they’ll take out a good few terrorists – It’s what they’ve been doing in every direction for forty years, after all. It’s what they were doing decades ago when they were telling the world that they couldn’t possibly negotiate with the Palestinians because Arafat was too evil, and it’s probably what they’ll be doing in fifteen years when they’re bombing the rubble of Gaza trying to wipe out the even-crazier militia that will spring up once Hamas are gone.

They have to use their own rockets to destroy Hamas rockets – and people get hurt on both sides.

Yes, although 99% of them are on one side in particular, aren’t they?

If they stop making their rockets – then Israel wouldn’t need rockets either.

Indeed, and if a frog had wings it wouldn’t bump its arse on the ground. No doubt the Israelis would love it if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets and suchlike, but that’s not ever going to happen, is it? No doubt the world would be a better place for the rest of us if the Palestinians just sat still and behaved while the Israelis tied up the rest of Jerusalem, for instance, but I’m not going to hold my breath for it.

It never ceases to amaze me when people try to convince me that the conflict in the Holy Land started yesterday with a Hamas rocket barrage. If you want me to believe this is all about a few Hamas rockets, and not, for example, about giving Hamas one last kicking before the Obama administration comes in… Well, why not just come right out and call me a drooling simpleton to my face, rather than trying to slather this obvious nonsense with a veneer of credibility?

I’m sorry, I can’t find anything that states exactly why we are – and should be – friends with Israel.

What has the average Israeli done for me lately?

Likewise, those Palestinians.

Also, you can’t sell bombs and not expect them to be used.

“No doubt the world would be a better place for the rest of us if the Palestinians just sat still and behaved”

Most importantly – The world would also be a better place for the Palestinians themselves.

and also:

What has the average Israeli done for me lately? –

Do me a favour – it takes two seconds google search to find out!

http://www.advocatesforisrael.org/achievements.html

Lilliput,

So some Israeli companies/scientists developed some cool stuff.

Yeah, right, I take it back.

I have a Kata backpack for my camera. That’s an Israeli company. So I guess I should consent to whatever Tel Aviv commands (forgetting the £90 I paid for it, presumably).

And every week I put fuel in my car, should I agree with the way Saudis treat women?

My DVD player was made in China, should I forget the 10,000 political prisoners they murder every year? I understand Nazi scientists made a few breakthroughs too…

Grow up.

“None of this needs to happen – they just need to stop throwing rockets – why isn’t the whole world putting pressure on them to stop rather then putting pressure on Israeli’s to stop. That’s the point I’m trying to make.”

This kind of stance is ridiculous and short sighted. Yes, you say bomb the shit out of Gazan schools (that you knew were schools) because of the rockets, but Hamas throw the rockets because Israeli’s killed 10 people during a ceasefire. So how about we say none of their rockets need to happen, Israel just needs to stop bombarding Palestinians despite a ceasefire being in effect? Does that make you feel any better about rockets hitting Israeli houses and harming innocent families, does it make you think “actually, I have nothing to complain about here”?

Israel killed 10 people, Hamas or not, and broke a ceasefire. Hamas ended up doing what they know to do best (just as the IDF do) and retaliate. They killed, as far as I’m aware, no-one thankfully. This then sparks Israel to kill 600 and you can even attempt to justify this?

Drop the bullshit, it’s not an argument you’re presenting, it’s an excuse.

Aaron – I just answered this question

What has the average Israeli done for me lately? -

– don’t get upset with a very straightforward answer.

Nothing is wholly bad or good – but a mixture of both. The same way niether the Israeli’s or Palestinians are wholly innocent or evil and both have to stop firing rockets immediately.

That’s been my point the whole time.

What I see here Lee, is that you’re just pointing at the Israeli’s and I don’t think thats fair.

No Lilliput, I am pointing at both sides so don’t try that bullshit diversionary tactic on me.

YOU are the one that is trying to justify Israeli murder of Palestinians because of a “he started it” argument that is founded on a lie. Are you going to accept that it was Israel that threw the first stone in this conflict or are you going to continue to try and slide past as if you haven’t made a mistake?

You are also the one that seems to believe it is morally ok to try and get what you want by murdering innocent people so much that their leaders essentially surrender, without at all seeing the irony of your own distaste for Hamas’s methods.

Both sides are wrong in their own right, but given that it is only Israel doing any real damage at this moment the onus is on them to be proportionate. How can responding to the deathless attacks of Hamas with the killing of 600 Palestinians ever be called a proportionate response, or even “self defence”?

Some people use the ridiculous “don’t hit a bully” analogy, you do, and it stinks. I tend to use the “big brother” argument. Israel is supposed to be more developed, more democratic, more stable and more powerful. It has a responsibility to act proportionately. Just as if your little brother breaks your favourite toy, the correct response of a more mature individual is NOT to go and break every single one of his; Israel’s correct response isn’t killing this many people and destroying so much of Gazan’s land and property.

But then, maybe we’re wrong to think of Israel as the more mature party in this conflict?

Yeah, you’re right Lee, I give up! – Hamas is the more mature.

I wonder why Daniel Z and Rachel from North London are having problems with joining the Saterday “peace ” march?

One very large problem here is that everyone is only seeking military solutions. Terrorism is not a problem that can be solved by indiscriminate bombing.

Lilliput – of course the majority disagrees with Hamas and their tactics however it is not in any way justifiable for Israel to use their supreme might on a ‘tactic’ that will never work. Israel are doing the best recruitment job possible for Hamas. If your family was wiped out by a bomb sent by the same people who have suffocated your country for years, not allowing food, medicine and aid to get in, then there is a much higher possibility that you will join Hamas. If on the other hand Israel had tried to help Palestine develop and offer opportunities, education for children – i.e. hope and progress rather than fear, oppression and death then the Gaza strip would be a much safer place right now and the Palestinians would be more likely to fight off Hamas, rather than let Hamas fight on their behalf.

It is a sad world we live in but we really need to radically rethink how we deal with conflict. Military solutions are increasingly shown to be ineffective and counter-productive. 7/7 happened in Britan – not Germany or France. Something to do with our heavy involvment with America in Iraq and Afganistan? Definately.

Liliput – to be honest I am amazed at some of the things you have said on this.
“If you want to stop the weapons supply to Israel, why don’t you do the same with whomever is supplying the rockets to gaza?” Are you serious with that? As already pointed out, they are in the main homemade. Perhaps we should make it really fair and stop America from effectively giving arms to Israel. You say your point is that both should stop firing missiles, but what is homemade rockets compared to the latest hi-tech weaponary?

You talk of bias on this site, yet when I talk to people who are not really political they mainly feel that the Israeli response is too severe. How can any non Israeli citizen who see’s the news reports be anything but biased against Israel? Particularly when you see starving injured children who have been denied red cross help?

What could Israel do to stop the rockets? Perhaps if they stopped building more settlements, tore down the ones already there, and allowed Palestinians at least a chance of a normal life then the need for ‘freedom’ may abate.

I don’t agree wit hammas launching rockets, but I can understand their motivation. Who wouldn’t when your life is lived in an open prison. Heck, sounds almost like your justification for Israeli atrocities – you throw rocks at us and we will throw our new shiny american rocks at you.

Firstly, Lilliput, don’t congratulate yourself prematurely, it’ll take more than your comment to bend me out of shape.

You don’t spend over a decade in political debate on the internet by getting “upset” so easily.

Moving on…

What exactly should Hamas do (to achieve its political/territorial goals)?

Okay, it has not recognised Israel, but then Fatah did, and Tel Aviv did everything in its power to emasculate that organisation.

It appears to me that Israel has no desire to see a Palestinian state flourish. Many Israeli rightwingers have openly stated that Israel’s goal is to aggressively expand its borders – and all evidence suggests that this is indeed its goal.

I’m sorry, but I tend to wholeheartedly support liberal democracies in their legitimate quarrels, but Israel doesn’t come meet that criterion.

Call me anti-Semitic, if it’ll make you feel better.

Oh god that ‘term’ has appeared again………….anti semetic.

Just because you are anti Israeli don’t make you anti semetic. If I’m anti Iran does that make me anti muslim?
Aaron – you shouldn’t feel the need to even mention it in your post. This is about the actions of a nation state not a religion. Yes I know religion plays a huge role in this but there is no reason for one to be accused of anti-semetism just by being anti israeli on this issue.

If you have to write so many words trying to excuse yourself from condeming Israeli war crimes and calling for peace, and weasel your way out of any criticism of Israel, then I doubt your presence at the march will be sorely missed

Aaron – you shouldn’t feel the need to even mention it in your post. This is about the actions of a nation state not a religion. Yes I know religion plays a huge role in this but there is no reason for one to be accused of anti-semetism just by being anti israeli on this issue.

Oh, I like to mention it. Because people luuurve to throw “racist”, “fascist” and suchlike around.

I encourage it – it means they’ve lost the argument.

Aaron – I just think it better to wait for the remark rather than encourage it. Why not let someone make that inference first and then you can deal with them. Plus it then becomes that much more difficult for them to get out of. When your arguments are as strong as yours have been you have no need to incite. Just wait for the ‘Is it because I is Jewish’.
Just a thought mate, just a thought.

“Yeah, you’re right Lee, I give up! – Hamas is the more mature.”

That’s not at all what I said, you clearly have a problem with interpretation, because I’d hate to believe you’re purposefully trying to so blatantly misconstrue my comments out of a lack of any real argument on your part.

I said Hamas are immature, and like a big brother Israel should take the high road and lead by example. That’s not to say that they shouldn’t defend themselves, that they shouldn’t do what they can to stop Hamas from harming their people; but it isn’t to say they should bring themselves down to Hamas’ level. Clear enough for you this time or shall I write it up Janet and John style?

When Syria murdered 20,000 of it’s own people it was remarkable how quiet were the arabic/muslim/ left wing groups. The 20,000 murdered just happened to be opposed to Assad and were not even firing rockets at him. The protests would have more validity if the vehemence was proportional to the number killed. How many Palestinians have been murdered by Palestinians over the last 30 years and which weapons did they use?

“Many Israeli rightwingers have openly stated that Israel’s goal is to aggressively expand its borders – and all evidence suggests that this is indeed its goal.”

Who? And what evidence?

I know there are some hard right types on fringes but all the (fairly right-wing) Israelis I know are ready for peace any day and have no interest in territorial expansion. Consider the old rightie, Sharon, who took Israel out of Gaza just before he had a stroke. I think the Israeli establishment thinks peace in unobtainable, not that it is undesirable.

Who? And what evidence?

I’ll get back to you later, as I’ve got to take the kids to school and write the netcast, but… are you serious?

Continued expansions goes unabated in The West Bank – which you’ll be more than aware is not part of pre-1967 Israel.

Henry Siegman, writing in the LRB ::

The claim that it is only Palestinian violence and rejectionism that compelled Israel to remain in the territories is a fabrication. As I argued in the LRB (16 August 2007), the assiduously promoted story of Israel’s pursuit of peace and its search for a Palestinian ‘partner for peace’ was fashioned to buy time to establish ‘facts on the ground’: settlements that would so completely shatter the territorial and demographic contiguity and integrity of Palestinian land and life as to make the establishment of a Palestinian state impossible. In this, Israel’s leaders have succeeded so well that Olmert, who claims finally to have realised that without a two-state solution Israel will become an apartheid entity that cannot survive, has not been able to implement even the smallest of the changes he promised in Annapolis. The expansion of the settlements and of a Jews-only highway system in the West Bank continues without interruption. The price that Israel and Jews everywhere – not to speak of the Palestinian people – may yet have to pay for this ‘success’ is painful to contemplate.

“When Syria murdered 20,000 of it’s own people it was remarkable how quiet were the arabic/muslim/ left wing groups.”

We’ve already ascertained that different situations capture different people in different ways. The existence of other tragedies in history or in the future don’t detract from the relevance of being against this conflict.

I really wish people would stop pretending that because some people in 1982, or 1975, or whenever, didn’t make as much fuss about one tragedy as a potentially different set of people are doing now about this conflict, that we now don’t have a right to protest, demonstrate and argue against what is going on.

So the settlements in the West Bank aren’t an example of wanting to expand Israeli territory? They just happened to be there because the weather was nice? And Israel hasn’t been occupying the Palestinian Territories for 40 years now? Hmm. I get the feeling he wasn’t being serious and was only trying to distract everyone from the fact that Israel is committing war crimes, pure and simple.

I really wish people would stop pretending that because some people in 1982, or 1975, or whenever, didn’t make as much fuss about one tragedy as a potentially different set of people are doing now about this conflict, that we now don’t have a right to protest, demonstrate and argue against what is going on. Me too, but it looks like that is the only defence against the indefensible: distraction.

Just to reiterate, this post is about halting the export of British weapons to Israel – with no mention of Hamas weapons. To me – that is one sided. Your argument that Hamas rockets are home made is valid but they are still getting the parts from somewhere – they are not manifesting them out of thin air using the Secret Law of Attraction? Someone is supplying and using tunnels for distribution. The fact that they are old technology is neither here nor there – if they had the latest technology, they would be using it and I believe this is the reason for the incursion into Gaza to destroy these tunnels and whatever weapons they have left (and not to kill and injure innocent civillians because I find it very hard to believe that if that was the goal – they would have only killed +/-600)

I love your little brother analogy, lets look at it in more detail:

LB breaks BB’s toy, BB warns LB not to do it again, LB does it again, BB warns LB again, LB does it again so BB hides all his toys, LB finds toys and breaks one. BB takes LB to therapy to try and understand why he is breaking his toys where LB tells his BB that he doesn’t believe that BB should have any toys so if he can’t have them noone can. In frustration BB makes a partition between his room and LB’s room so that his LB can’t get to his toys. BB gets on playing creatively while LB spends all his time trying to get to BB’s toys with his toy pellet gun. BB would love to be able to share the toys with his LB and play nicely but he can’t lower the partition until LB stops firing the pellet gun, so he decides to destroy the pellet gun with his own powerful pellet gun and see what happens?

I think that’s where we are.

“Just to reiterate, this post is about halting the export of British weapons to Israel – with no mention of Hamas weapons. To me – that is one sided.”

Just to reiterate, we are not supplying Hamas with any weapons (correct me if I’m wrong), so there is no point in demanding the government stops selling them any.

“Your argument that Hamas rockets are home made is valid but they are still getting the parts from somewhere”

Until you can show us that they’re getting them from the UK, the above point still stands.

And, just to reiterate, no-one here accepts what Hamas is doing, the Lib Dem’s don’t accept what they’re doing, I don’t think any of the political parties do…but Israel are the ones we’re aiding to kill innocent people.

“LB breaks BB’s toy, BB warns LB not to do it again”

Haha! Please, let’s try and find reality shall we. Since when has Israel just warned Hamas not to do it again?

And, yet again I’ll ask, can you not accept that Hamas are the only body here that are (from reports we’ve had) actually adhered to the ceasefire? You’re great at diverting, but I want to hear you admit that Israel threw the first stone here.

Just to reiterate, we are not supplying Hamas with any weapons (correct me if I’m wrong), so there is no point in demanding the government stops selling them any.

You’re not wrong. OTOH, Private Eye are saying that Britain shipped £18.5 million worth of weapons – missile guidance systems, computers for fighter planes and bombers – in the first three months of 2008. That’s a whole lot of British hardware currently being used to bomb heavily populated urban areas, causing hundreds of civilian casualties.

So one more time, this is why nobody is asking us to petition the UK government to stop supplies to Hamas –

UK arms sales to Israel – £18.5m worth of kit in three months alone;

UK arms sales to Hamas – £0 worth of kit in all of history.

Accusing people of bias because they’re not calling for weapons supplies to be equally interdicted are surely daft in these circumstances, don’t you think? Unless you’re saying we should be calling for the Israelis to drop more bombs on the Gaza/Egyptian border, in which case it would be insane.

Perhaps, given the current economic climate, we should consider selling arms to both sides.

…we should consider selling arms to both sides.

No, that would be a bad idea.

Apologies, I came over a all Milo Minderbinder for a moment there. It’s hardly an idea without precedent though, is it?

Why not?

They both seem hell-bent in wiping each other off the face of the earth. Why not make a few quid?

The entrepreneur sees an opportunity in such opportunities.

“And, yet again I’ll ask, can you not accept that Hamas are the only body here that are (from reports we’ve had) actually adhered to the ceasefire? You’re great at diverting, but I want to hear you admit that Israel threw the first stone here.”

Sorry Buddy – I think its a case of each side thinking the other is a liar – the rockets didn’t stop during the period of calm and the proof of Hamas’ hoarding rockets is in the numbers (one of the ceasefire criteria) is overwhelming.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Behind+the+Headlines-+Calm+in+the+South+19-Jun-2008.htm?ABCDEFGH#violations

the rockets didn’t stop during the period of calm

“Period of calm” might be better described as a period of continued political stagnation, apartheid and oppression.

Lilliput – please don’t talk of bias here when your own views are so one sided.

The fact is Israel shouldn’t even have the military capabilities that it does based on its size and economy. It has been completely dependent upon America for billions of dollars of military aid for decades. In contrast Hammas has been reliant on ………..smuggling what they can through tunnels.

The post as you said is about stopping arms sales to Israel and after what the world has seen, perhaps it is about time we stopped arms sales and America stopped military aid.

You can’t keep saying, oh hammas are just as bad because quite obviously they do not have the capacity to be as bad. As pretty much everyone here has said, Hammas must accept some responsibility – BUT obviously most ire will be directed at Israel because in this instance, they are Goliath, they are the ones commiting war crimes.

If the UK were selling arms to any other country in the world that was involved in such a ‘war’ and you saw the news reports that are currently coming out, would you not go along the lines of an arms embargo?

I understand you are Jewish, I’m not sure if you are Israeli, but either way, come on, there have to be repurcussions for this latest Israeli action. And before you say it, I think Hammas are currently getting theirs for the rockets – and every other Gazan to boot.

“Continued expansions goes unabated in The West Bank – which you’ll be more than aware is not part of pre-1967 Israel.”

THAT is territorial expansion? Building settlements on territory that was taken on strategic grounds and was originally going to be part of the Jewish homeland anyway? With all the rhetoric thrown around I was expecting to see some smoking gun for Israeli ‘breathing room’ in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt! Well fine, but even that settlement expansion is a minority pursuit. The rightwing in Israel let it happen because it moves the frontline away from them in a conflict they don’t see as ever ending. And they believe, probably correctly, that handing back territory doesn’t make Israel look respectable in the eyes of its opponents, but weak and contemptible.

Is there an independent source of this information, Lilliput? I don’t mind admitting I’m wrong, but everything I’ve read states that militant factions fired those rockets during the ceasefire, not Hamas. I’d also love to see the proof that Hamas were hoarding rockets if you’ve got the references.

“I think Hammas are currently getting theirs for the rockets – and every other Gazan to boot.”

This is the sad thing…I don’t think Hamas are even slightly hurting as an organisation. Some of their people have died, no doubt, but this conflict will create a surge in recruitment as much as for Israel it increases the government’s polling before elections. The only losers here are the citizens of Gaza that are being butchered, and then after the butchering is done they have what to return to? Destroyed homes and desperate conditions still controlled by Israeli blockades and controls.

Ace, your naivety and hypocracy astounds me.

Have a look at these:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-how-britain-is-selling-weapons-to-the-most-unstable-places-on-earth-648992.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4161341.ece

For the record I am Jewish and I believe that the Gazan’s are just pawns of some as yet unknown power who insists that war is a good thing. I don’t blame individual Palestinians, I think that they have been let down by their muslim brothers who care more about proving a point then their welfare.

Lee, Israeli’s use the words Hamas and militants interchangeably – and if they weren’t it would be a case of them telling Hamas, “well if you can’t control your people, then let us help you”

The proof of the hoarding is that they have enough rockets to fire 80/day in December – if they didn’t hoard then they wouldn’t have any to fire isn’t it simple?

Lee – thats the thing. Gazans will return to find very little infra structure left. But then this is nothing new as Israel always try to smash the infra structure. The last time they decided to bomb the hell out of the Palestinians it was the infra structure that they made sure they hit, so utilities etc got smashed. And who exactly does this really hurt – why the average man in the street who just wants to work to keep his family.

Lilliput – you keep repeating what you are saying if it makes you feel like Israel is justified, but I think they will pay on the international political scene eventually. You can’t keep commiting war crimes and continue to get away with it – even if the government say they will have an investigation! By the way, you too can also pat yourself on your back for a sterling job in promoting muslim militancy here and around the world.

The ceasefire was with Hamas as a governing organisation. If Israel wants to help Hamas “control” Palestinians, as if that was ever something they weren’t trying indirectly anyway, then do it diplomatically; not through bombing. I’m sure Hamas weren’t exactly bending over backwards to stop these rockets either, but it’s not like either side really cares much for diplomacy before fighting does it? Even the Israeli idea of a warning is to tell Gaza they will attack it if rocket fire doesn’t stop, and then despite a marked decrease in rocket fire fire up the air strikes around 24 hours later. Both sides act disgustingly in reference to innocent human life and the sustainability of any peace agreement in the future.

As for hoarding…can you point me to where it was part of the agreement that they wouldn’t keep weapons?

I’m not under any illusions here, ceasefires like this are just respites to recover and form up, and that is no doubt what Hamas used the time for. Their rocket attacks are despicable. But the issue here is, and always has been, the disproportionate level of power Israel is using. The fact that Israel was the first to throw a stone in this conflict to break the Hamas – Israel ceasefire is, in the bigger picture, irrelevant…but it’s important to recognise that it’s not as simple as your idea that everything starts solely with a Hamas rocket.

“I don’t blame individual Palestinians, I think that they have been let down by their muslim brothers who care more about proving a point then their welfare.”

But you don’t care if they die for Israeli “safety” either do you?

I will try not to be all or say all those things above so without being bias WTF (is that ok)?
is going on in Palestine!!!! to these poor palestinian people. I do not profess to know much about it, only that the land was stolen from them by the zionist jews in 1947 and these people have been persecuted ever since. I do know that in 1916 after britain was losing the war with germany the zionists in the usa went to Britain and offered him a deal.
If britain promise them palestine then they will help them win the war.Germany had already called a truce,but Britain was pursuaded to get into this deal.The usa told their people that germany had sunk the french passenger steamer the sussex with american citizens on board.(false flag) it didnt sink.And so the involvement of usa.Before this the us was very pro germany,they then started to portray germany as the villians in all the newspapers. There is a lot to be said on this and the events that happened after,it was probably the catalyst for the second world war against the jews,having lost germany the war and many of its people.Palestine was not promised the holy land to the jews it was britain as it was pART OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE,it was not britains to give,and so it doesnt belong to the jews.palestine was stolen from the palestinans by britain and the zionists.what they are doing now to the palestinian people is unforgivable ,i hate them for it. What they are doing now is what the nazis did to them and the palestinians are suffering through no fault of their own.so dont blame Hamas for firing rockets into their own land,give the land to the rightful owners and go and find your own land or buy some with all the zionist wealth.preferably in some remote area where no one else can come to any harm at the hands of these non humans who want to commit these atrocities(this is not all jews)
I am so angry how they can do this to a people, treat them as sub human,when actually
they are for doing this,after having the same done to them.And while the world sits back and does nothing!! it is sick,these people are sick and one day will have to answer to their maker.To all jews,look up your history, Benjamin freedman an ex zionist who tells his story. its not your land,it never ever was your land and while you occupy the land as you do there wil never be peace in the world.which is great for the arms trade but not for humanity

Lilliput – sorry I missed your previous post @50 else I would have answered that too.
“Gazan’s are just pawns of some as yet unknown power who insists that war is a good thing”
hmmm, well it would appear the unknown power in this instance is Israel what with elections coming up then.

As for arms sales elswhere, yes I know we do yet even Turkey, the biggest importer of our arms have not actually got to the point that Israel has with Palestine. I agree with an arms embargo because it is something we can do to put pressure on Israel. If I saw the carnage being meted out to other civilians in other countries, knowing that our arms were still being sold and that country is in contravention of numerous UN rulings I would say the same thing. I wouldn’t expect us to sell arms to Hammas right now because there is a good chance they will be used on civilian areas.

Even you must have felt uncomfortable when the Red Cross talks of war crimes.

Thanks Sally for proving my point so well. Its because people like you feel that Israel shouldn’t exist that the Israeli’s feel like their back is against the wall and they have to fire at anything that moves.

If you stand by your theory of Jews not belonging in Israel, then lets give New Zealand back to the Moari’s, Australia back to the Aborigenes, America back to the Indians etc etc etc. Its never going to happen is it? Just like Israel is there and it isn’t going to go away. The sooner the world accept it and look forward to the future with Israel in it, the sooner we will have peace.

I also suggest you do a little bit more reading on the subject before you write down such incorrect views. There has been a continuous Jewish (3000 years) presence in Israel since before Islam came about.

During the ‘ceasefire’, 47 Palestinians were killed… and as far as I can dig up, [maybe] 1 Israeli was killed.

I have no love for Hamas (any organisation that takes its cue from a god or deity is, as far as I’m concerned, automatically designated twattish), but the news we read is absolute hogwash. This is why I find those – usually so suspicious of the MSM – so happy to believe the slavish pro-Israeli claptrap we read, rather moronic.

I have no problem with the State of Israel and its existence, but I don’t see why it gets a free pass, and why so many people are happy to shred their credibility and ideological beliefs to defend it.

As far as I’m concerned, Israel’s no more or less important to me than Peru. There are many regions around the globe where civilians are getting cut up and bombed, why we have to expend so much ink on one conflict is beyond me.

What bothers people is that, when Jews act like every other section of humanity (i.e. they treat others like shit), they have an army of apologists who misrepresent fact to present a sanitised narrative.

I was in my local town centre yesterday. The number of businesses that have closed took me by surprise. We’re in the complete shit. The country is struggling. Surely we’d be better concentrating our efforts where they can actually make a difference?

Yeah, but your just a dirty immigrant, Aaron…or does that narrative not exist there?

“What bothers people is that, when Jews act like every other section of humanity (i.e. they treat others like shit), they have an army of apologists who misrepresent fact to present a sanitised narrative.”

That’s the hypocracy – how can every other country that has acted like shits in the past say anything about another country when it acts shitty?

And don’t worry Aaron – I’m also just a dirty immigrant;)

“That’s the hypocracy – how can every other country that has acted like shits in the past say anything about another country when it acts shitty?”

Because *we* didn’t endorse our countries shitty actions or make excuses for them…that’s the point Aaron is making.

Its because people like you feel that Israel shouldn’t exist that the Israeli’s feel like their back is against the wall and they have to fire at anything that moves. That is the single most pathetic excuse for war crimes I have possibly ever seen. So Israel, despite having a modern economy, one of the most advanced armies in the world, the unyielding support of the world’s only remaining superpower, AND nuclear weapons, gets insecure – and then bombs schools full of civilians.

Maybe the issue is Israel’s insecurity. Israel should try not occupying the bits of territory they so generously left to the people whose land they stole in 1948 – you see, it lead to sixty years of bitterness and resentment, multiple wars against Israel, worldwide condemnation, and this bizarre inferiority complex. Israel has all the guns and nukes it needs, and it’s worried about what other nations will do to it.

Because *we* didn’t endorse our countries shitty actions or make excuses for them…that’s the point Aaron is making

I agree, but you have benefitted and continue to benefit from their past transgressions.

“land they stole in 1948″- I believe they were given it

“Israel has all the guns and nukes it needs, and it’s worried about what other nations will do to it.” and pray tell me which other country has Presidents call for it to disappear off the map of the world? I bet if someone called for Britain to disappear you would be mighty nervous too.

“I agree, but you have benefitted and continue to benefit from their past transgressions.”

That has absolutely nothing to do with what you said, it holds no relevance to the issue of why you continue to act as an apologist for potential war crimes while we demanded action and accountability for incidents like Abu Ghraib.

how can every other country that has acted like shits in the past say anything about another country when it acts shitty?

Because, benefiting from these actions or not, we still don’t make excuses and try to legitimise them. We look at our history, and our current actions, and we generally feel a sense of shame about that. Not ashamed enough to abandon all sense of reason but then it’s not like we’re asking Israel to become subservient with sadness to the Palestinians either.

At least generally, of course there are super-right wing nationalists that share your traits for never allowing *great* Britain to be tarnished with bad words.

“I believe they were given it”

By whom? The people that lived there? My understanding is that it’s more like Jews moved in and, as a minority population, asserted their “right” to be there. However, like you say, we benefit and continue to benefit…what’s done is done and we always need to work from where we are, not where we were. I would never call for Israel to “go away”…there is a desperate need for Israel and Palestine…and ultimately neighbouring nations, to come to terms about borders and realistic sovereignty too.

But you know what, if a load of Italians came and sat here in the UK and declared part of it to be theirs by right because of some old piece of writing…I think I’d be pretty pissy about it, so I can also understand where the other side is coming from here. It’s a shame you seem to be unable to.

“I bet if someone called for Britain to disappear you would be mighty nervous too.”

That would depend on if we were paranoid and didn’t understand the reality of what the world would be plunged in to if such a thing happened (and thus why such action would be severely unlikely to ever happen).

Israel-Palestine conflict seems to be tollerated by the West as it’s such a sticky issue. If Iran came out and started attacking Israel then you can be sure as shit that a significant international war would break out. Beyond Iran there is no nation with anywhere near the power to make any more of a dent than countries such as Lebanon have, at least to my mind…

I am more than welcome to hear more about all of these states powerful enough to pose a threat and actively are trying to destroy Israel as opposed to just saying they don’t recognise that Israel exists.

Thanks Sally for proving my point so well.

Yes, Lilliput, I see that you’re very good at taking on random interlopers with mad opinions who don’t understand what you’re talking about.

You don’t seem to be quite as good at dealing with people who respond to the points you make, though.

I’m in the UK at the moment BTW. Have been for a few months.

I’m not an immigrant here, although my wife is.

Lee,

“as opposed to just saying they don’t recognise that Israel exists.”

So who is the real bully? Why do you think that Israel needs to be so heavily armed with a massive army – its to make sure that those who think it will think twice about making their dream a reality. Why do you think the whole world watches every move that happens wrt Israel – because they know how easily it could be attacked which could lead to WW3.

“But you know what, if a load of Italians came and sat here in the UK and declared part of it to be theirs by right because of some old piece of writing…I think I’d be pretty pissy about it, so I can also understand where the other side is coming from here. It’s a shame you seem to be unable to.”

Believe me, I more then understand, Jews especially have been chased out of more then a few homes in the past millenia. What I can’t understand is a Brit telling me its wrong to do it when they’ve done it worldwide without a thought to the consequences for natives and have become beyond wealthy because of it. I’m sorry but its a bit rich for me to stomach

This is the way I view the current situation:

I think the difference between the jews and Palestinians is that the Jews always look forward into the future to ensure the best for their children. The Arabs only look backwards at what they have lost and seek revenge. Jews all over the world send money to Israel, where is the money for the Palestinians coming from? Yes Hamas gave them some infrastructure to go with their $10 000 grants per dynamite martyr, but where is the rest of the Arab world? Everyone is screaming that Israel has closed the borders with Gaza – why are they not shouting at Egypt, who could have made life in Gaza much more pleasant. Why is it that Palestinians burn American flags while America continues to send millions of dollars in aid. Where are the millions of dollars from the beyond wealthy houses of Saudi, Iran, UAE, Kuwait, Quatar. If they stop using the Palestinans as pawns and really help them build new lives, the world would indeed be a better place.

My heart inded does go out for these innocent people, but I don’t think that Israel is really the cause of their misery.

“I’m in the UK at the moment BTW. Have been for a few months.

I’m not an immigrant here, although my wife is.”

Gah, so my sly backhand at the “anti-immigrant” crowd here falls on it’s arse

Lilliput:

“So who is the real bully?”

The ones killing hundreds of people, impeding aid, and destroying infrastructure essential to civilian quality of life rather than just threatening to wipe Israel off of the map if Israel attacks them, that’s who.

“Believe me, I more then understand, Jews especially have been chased out of more then a few homes in the past millenia. ”

So you understand, yet choose to defend the infliction of that on other people regardless? How upstanding…

“What I can’t understand is a Brit telling me its wrong to do it when they’ve done it worldwide”

Here is where you don’t seem to be able to take the intellectual leap. I personally, me the individual, did not do *anything* worldwide, nor do I think it was moral of us to do so. I celebrate that we pull out of territories as we have such as Africa, Hong Kong…even giving Gibraltar the choice to repatriate with somewhere closer to them geographically even if they didn’t wish to take it.

I am not my government, nor past governments that made decisions long before I’m born…so it should be fairly easy to see why I can, as a fairly ethically thinking individual member of the human race, regardless of country of birth, tell you it’s wrong to try and excuse the actions of the increasingly criminal Israeli government.

“The Arabs only look backwards at what they have lost and seek revenge.”

Oh, weren’t you accusing people of being anti-semetic earlier? I believe you’ll find that perhaps there is an argument that Hamas is only looking back in the respect you seem to think. However you also seem to lose perspective that 60 years is not a long time, people born during the mandate of Palestine could still be alive today and wondering why exactly they have had so much land taken away from them without their agreement.

The without agreement thing is important, because though it’s been 60 years Israel and Palestine are yet to have sat down and sorted this out. You call that looking backwards for the Palestinian people, right? I call it simply asking for something absolutely long overdue…an agreement over exactly what is fair and justified.

“Why is it that Palestinians burn American flags while America continues to send millions of dollars in aid.”

What does that matter to Israel getting close to murdering 1000 palestinians while they have killed…0 Israeli’s?

“If they stop using the Palestinans as pawns and really help them build new lives, the world would indeed be a better place.”

At least until Israel bombs all the power stations, schools, police stations and other vital infrastructure again in 6 months time.

lilliput unless you were there your views are as meaningless as mine
why not listen to belsen after belsan for an insight into the truth you have 4 days to listen again on radio 4………here is the link,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00f6q66

what we all know is what is going on now, and if you can justify what is going on now then you are an animal who needs to be put in a concentration camp not the palestinians who are imprisoned in the largest concentration camp ever known to man
who do the nodding nazis think they are? that they can commit genocide on an innocent population by robbing their land and killing their people.
the holocaust against the palestinian people.
if israel has the right to exist then so does palestine
also real jews are brown, there were no white skinned people living in the Middle East 2000 years ago. Christians should depict Jesus correctly by giving him dark skin and Semitic features.Imagine if Africans made the mistake of assuming Alaska was their homeland.The real homeland for the white, Ashkenazi Jews is near the Caspian and Black Seas, not Palestine!!!
Read Arthur Koestler, The Thirteenth Tribe.
Hamas are freedom fighters not terrorists,the palestinians were asked to vote,they did,
for hamas and because america and so called israel didn`t like who they voted for they decided to punish them.That is the truth.
but now the world,for the first time can see who the real terrorists are, and the people who have died in gaza are martyrs for the awakening of the world to the truth as to what is really gong on it has opened the eyes of many that so called israel is a terrorist
state who is doing unto others which they had done to them.Hilter wanted rid of the jews from europe for what the zionists did in the first world war bringing in america to win the war for britain he was getting revenge for the deaths of many german soldiers,
Whats (so called israel) excuse for the use of white phosphorus,depleted uranium, the masacre,murder,starvation,deprivation,degradation,humiliation.crimes against humanity of the palestinians ??
What?? we do it because we can get away with it,because most countries and their governments are run by zionists,money talks and the zionists have control over the federal reserve and world banks,in fact the zionists run just about everything dont they?
so that makes it ok then.remember the zionists do not care about the average jew they are two different entities altogether.Does it not surprise you that the palestinians do not have to wear armbands with a crescent on it as did the jews the star of david,maybe it will come.and if jews are gods chosen people then we must ask ourselves, IS THERE A GOD?
mmmmm
dont ever make excuses for zionism lilliput

ish Newspaper Advocates Mass Murder of Innocent muslim Civilians as ADL and Other Jewish Groups Remain Silent

Like the infamous three monkeys of the “See no evil/Hear no evil/Speak no evil” caricature, mainstream Jewish groups are pretending not to notice a recent piece appearing in an Orthodox newspaper calling for the slaughter of innocent civilians in Muslim countries.

Entitled “The Appropriate Response to Islamic Terror”, Lawrence Kulak writing in the 5 Towns Jewish Times opines that the “final solution” to the “Muslim Problem” the West faces today is simple–‘Kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out.’ In particular, he and the newspaper carrying the piece are calling for the deliberate killing of innocent women and children as a form of collective punishment (a war crime by international law) to those who would dare attack the apple of God’s eye–Israel–or any of those fighting her wars for her. As of the moment of this writing, the lone organization sounding the alarm over the piece is CAIR, the Council on American Islamic Relations while at the same time all major Jewish organizations (yes, the same ones lecturing everyone else on a daily basis on issues of hate, bigotry, extremism and terror) are doing nothing to protest or distance themselves from the piece, the writer or publication.

As far as the wording of the piece itself, it is a case study in typical Zionist hatred of Gentiles and the justification of any and all violence against them and more so against those in the Muslim world resisting Jewish fanaticism and extremism. By his own words and arguments the writer Kulak betrays the fact that he operates under a barbaric code of morality that has no place in a civilized world and which has been the sole cause of Jews being ‘persecuted’ and expelled from every place they have dwelt throughout history. Those political leaders who don’t see things his way with regards to bombing the hell out of innocent women and children are ‘incompetent’ and he uses quotation marks around the word “horror” when speaking of entire families being blown to bits with laser-guided bombs, indicating that he sees no horror in it at all.

Perhaps most disturbing of all though is how he begins his piece. Like a Nazi “mad scientist” character in a film describing in a measured, unemotional voice the extermination of those deemed “enemies of the New Order“, so too does Kulak go about the business of dispassionately describing his idea of slaughtering non-combatants in a seemingly sterile, soulless manner. In the opening words, he speaks of the “great discoveries” such as penicillin that have been made in the field of medicine that took place by accident, and then goes on to describe in the same manner how the “cure” for terrorism was accidentally discovered when the American military bombed a tent in Afghanistan, killing an entire family.

Of the many things obviously deserving mention here, the first is that such a program of deliberately targeting Muslim women and children for extermination HAS already been done. One need look no further than what has taken place in Palestine for the last 60 years that to date has resulted in over a quarter of a million innocent civilian deaths. Added to this are the massacres at places such as Deir Yassin and at refugee camps such as Sabra and Shatilla, just a few of the many living historical testimonies to murder on a mass scale fueled by Jewish hatred of gentiles and the extremism it has always produced.

Next–and more up to date–is the fact that over a million innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan have been murdered in the last five years as a result of the same process advocated by the writer, and those not dead today will certainly be dead tomorrow as a result of the depleted uranium left by the US and the destruction of infrastructure that unavoidably results in disease and starvation

.Peter whom Jesus had given the keys to heaven was quoted as saying that “we will be judging angels”. Considering the Judeo-Christian perspective of hell’s angels already been judged and heaven’s angels need no human judgements, it is logical to point at the “watcher angels”, whom we know not of their judgements besides their imprisonment for a “70 generations” timeline refering to Enoch (Book of Enoch) by Peter after their banish and judgement. Enoch and Elijah have bypassed the Biblical judgement of,”the wages of sin is death” and claimed by sources to have become of “angelic status”, possibly hinting on the origins of Rh-negative blood,. “Jesus has paid for our eternal life”.my blood is the blood of the gods,it is also said to be of the oriental jews,O neg,does that make me own the keys to heaven

Now that the world has seen the criminal use of the most powerful, deadly weapons by Israel on the civilian population of Gaza, it is time to call a halt to the export of arms to Israel.

In arming Israel, the UK is both providing material support for its aggression and sending a message of approval for its actions.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Arms-embargo/
The British Government has said if enough people sign the petition to stop the United kingdom sending weapons to Israel they will give a positive response.
Lets make this the biggest petition the government has ever seen!
Please sign it if you have not already done so, and forward to others. It could save lives.