Hmm, yes, more left-wing is true…but then the front question’s answers were than 77% of people that had an idea wanted private companies to have at least half the control. I don’t know that such a view constitutes society as precisely being left-wing either.

By more left wing you mean more left wing than they perceive they have had…more still want a bigger role for the private sector than the state.

Meanwhile the Brown bounce is clearly over!

That’s a false dichotomy. You can have powerful states and powerful companies (think China!). The real question should be between the state and the individual.

Nick,

It might be false dichotomy, but it is the dichotomy we seem to live under. The negotiations are between the state and the powerful companies. Who, exactly, represents the individual citizen? We are just a pesky nuisance, as the managerialists of both government and capital will be only too happy to tell you.

Does ‘more left wing policies’ mean people want more polices which are left wing or does it mean they want some polices (e.g. economic policy) to be more left wing?

The latter is not incompatable with a state interventionist economy with strong immigration or law and order polices.

I suspect that many of the respondants would also like to paedo’s dangling from every lamp post; on its own the survey might jus be an expression of anger at the damage the financial sector has inflicted on the country and a desire to spare some rope for the bankers

Wow Sunny, I was just thinking of the brAnes style comments on the BBC website and feeling a hint of despair. Nothing like the sound, hard empirical to cheer me up again.

Even by your standards, Sunny, that is a stunningly laughable assumption. A better conclusion would be to observe how well Liebour’s media manipulation has succeeded in blaming our economic woes entirely on the private sector.

The British public want more right-wing policies, which is why Liebour are promoting such policies on welfare reform, immigration control (lol!) and crime. There is a general election coming up, so they are trying to fool the voters again. Surely, the mugs won’t believe them this time. Will they?

“That’s a false dichotomy. You can have powerful states and powerful companies (think China!). The real question should be between the state and the individual.”

Nick (Clegg?), I noticed you conveniently left out companies in you recommendation.

Chavscum,

That’s an hilariously convoluted comment…

“A better conclusion would be to observe how well Liebour’s (LOL) media manipulation has succeeded in blaming our economic woes entirely on the private sector.”

So, ZanuLieborwanktards have deviously convinced the public that, er, they’ve succumbed to corporatism.

The British public want more right-wing policies, which is why Liebour are promoting such policies on welfare reform, immigration control (lol!) and crime.

Oh, so the public want more right-wing policies? Well, what on earth happed to Zanulieborewanktards media manipulation?

It seems that whenever the public agrees with you they’re right, but whenever they disagree they’ve been duped. Now, this would be fine if you’d explain how this devious trickery took place, but you don’t, because it’s just a “conclusion” that you’ve created to bolster your argument.

Ben

“Anyone who tells you this is an economically right-wing country is talking out of their arse. ”

Would be interesting to see results regarding trade union powers, nationalisation and free trade. I suspect a majority might favour the renationalisation of the railways but would be opposed to the restoration of trade union power.

“Anyone who says this is a socially right-wing country is also talking out of their arse.”

I’ll believe that when I see polls showing a majority opposed to tougher immigration limits, opposition to the return of the death penalty, less punitive punishment for criminals, abolition of the monarchy and support for greater European integration.

Well, for several years now more people have opposed the death penalty than supported it.

“Anyone who says this is a socially right-wing country is also talking out of their arse”

Huh? The general public is further to the right on crime and immigration than pretty much all of the MPs in Westminster. Is there anyone apart from the dimwits on Liberal conspiracy asking for MORE immigration? Is there anyone outside Hampstead who thinks the prison regimes should be softer and sentencing LESS punitive?

You obviously have no idea about the state of public opinion in this country.

Niall,

Of course, if you put it like that.

Dunno about more immigration exactly, but there has been a grass roots utter rejection of state policy re asylum seekers. So, not so clear.

Most folk would probably vote for a successful rehabilitation regeime. If they were ever asked.

Stop trying to make your right wing talking points as true. It ain’t necessarily so.

“Most folk would probably vote for a successful rehabilitation regeime. If they were ever asked.”

Of course they would vote for a ‘successful’ rehabilitation regime. Voters tend to favour policies which are successful. Pity this amazing rehabilitation scheme only exists in your head eh?

Yea yeah and how many people wanted higher taxes about 2% ? Moving on from that meaningless Poll lets have alook at what people think really
This is todays Coms Res Poll ,
CONSERVATIVES 41% (+2)
LABOUR 32% (-2)
LIB DEMS 15% (-1)
This is the U Gov Poll
CONSERVATIVES 45% (+4)
LABOUR 32% (-2)
LIB DEMS 14% (-1)

You go left I `ll help you write the suicide note , not , that my assistance will be need

PS Death Penalty – Wrong as far as I can see Lee ?

http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/results.html

Newmania: You’re joking about that death penalty link, right?

“Nick (Clegg?), I noticed you conveniently left out companies in you recommendation.”

Well in so far as companies survive because they are serving individuals, I think they should carry on and be supported. In so far as they exist due to government whim, edict or favourable relationship (see Capita, most banks etc.) I think their powers should be reduced or eliminated.

Oh and while Clegg has been making some friendly(ish) noises about liberty recently, I doubt he would be linking to the Backlash website now:)

Niall@12

“Is there anyone outside Hampstead who thinks the prison regimes should be softer and sentencing LESS punitive?”

You haven’t been here for very long, have you?

Prison isn’t a punishment because deprivation of your liberty in an illiberal society is meaningless and the imposition of minimum material standards in a society which has none is a positive inducement to commit crime.

Rehabilitation is a longer, harder road for both those who travel along it and those who’ve mapped it out.

Newmania: You’re joking about that death penalty link, right?

No , but it was only the first thing I pulled out of the google lucky dip ahem… . I did wonder about it , as I would have guessed that most people now accept that practically the death penalty is not coming back . That said , the majority still believe that justice is not served by Rose West playing scrabble, and moaning about her sausages. I also believe that the vast majority believe the scales of justice have been tilted to far away from the victim. In this sense as in many others a system that reflected the views of the majority would be far more socially “Conservative” than what we have. Do you have some authoritative figures? This is the UK Polling Report in 2005

“Unsurprisingly therefore, the last two polls to ask whether or not capital punishment should be reintroduced for the murder of the police officer found majority support – in January 2003 YouGov found 56% supported it, later the same year in December 2003 they found 62% supported it.”</i.

The Sun last year …
“And a staggering 99 per cent of the 95,000 readers who responded to our You The Jury poll said the Government SHOULD reintroduce it.
Their mood was summed up by dad-of-four Brian Steede, who said in Brighton, Sussex: “Why should taxpayers pay for the likes of Wright and Dixie to live in prison?
“They took away their victims’ human rights and gave up theirs when they committed their hideous crimes. Bring back hanging, I say.”

I admit its not perfect where is your evidence ?

“I also believe that the vast majority believe the scales of justice have been tilted to far away from the victim”

You’re not wrong, however that doesn’t mean we need to satiate the public’s apparent need for bloodshed, especially given that need is falling with each generation.

Yougov 2006 – less than 50pc back the death penatly.

IPSOS-MORI in 2007 show a fairly even split on the matter also, specifically showing that despite a 50% approval of the death penalty 44% of people still thought that murderers should still only be imprisoned with no chance of parole.

Let’s never try and quote the Sun’s poll (unweighted, biased and with the ability for multiple votes to be cast by individuals) as evidence ever again, eh?

Lee Griffin – why care about polls anyway? When the Commons abolished hanging they did so in the knowledge that the vast majority of people at the time favoured it. They didn’t care, and neither do you. Even if most people wanted it, you’d be against it. At least admit that.

Newmania,

… the scales of justice have been tilted to far away from the victim.

What does that mean?

Cicero: I was responding to at least one point of Richard’s comment at #10.

<i.Newmania,

… the scales of justice have been tilted to far away from the victim.
What does that mean?
Longer Prison sentences that mean what they say rehabilitation relegated to a secondary issue and the return of justice to the heart of the penal system ..for a start. I think the Sun poll is evidence of sort .It shows that many people are exceedingly frustrated with the bourgeois moral relativism the consequences of which are suffered by those less privileged.

I do not accept that the lessening of support for capital punishment reflects anything more than the fact it has faded from our consciousness .
Given the question what punishment do you think is ”Just” for Rose West ( multiple killer torturer kidnapper child molester .) Death or a nice comfy cell ? I believe that the majority think Justice would be served by capital punishment . It has nothing to do with blood lust , it is an unpleasant duty performed out of respect for the victims the need to maintain impartial justice rather than revenge .
I believe all of these things but I would not re introduce it because of the cost and the fact you would never get a conviction also the danger of society becoming “The deeds creature “ which bothers me . An alive Rose West is clearly a bad thing though.

“I believe that the majority think Justice would be served by capital punishment .”

Before or after the tabloids have whipped up a fever that is designed to infuriate us?

“it is an unpleasant duty performed out of respect for the victims the need to maintain impartial justice rather than revenge .”

The day this country bases sentencing on the subjective whims of emotional victims is the day I truly look to live elsewhere.

“An alive Rose West is clearly a bad thing though.”

It’s an inconsequential thing, she’s locked up and that’s that. There is nothing more to it.

Newmania,
you are indulging in selective interpretation of facts to suit your ends. And you give the impression of being swayed by propaganda rather than of making your own mind up.

Whenever the British public has been given a referendum to vote on an issue we have contradicted what all opinion polls have held to be common view, but then it is only a vote on the issue if it’s not a partisan campaign.

This is the result now:

Answer (averages):
Total 0-4 (Bigger role for private companies) 26%
5 – power shared equally 44%
Total 6-10 (bigger role for state) 20%

OK. The largest portion want power to be shared equally. So, umm, where does the power actually reside? The government directly handles some 45% of the economy and regulates very strongly another what, 10, 15, 20%? Leaving something like 35 to 45% for private companies. Yes?

Sunny uses this as evidence to state that “An overwhelming number of Britons feel society has been too dominated by private companies so far and would like to see the state play a more active role.”

No it bloody doesn’t. Those figures above and then the second set, which show that the Great British Public seem to think that private companies have a greater part of the economy than the State….well, it doesn’t show that the GBP want more State control, it shows that they are severely deluded as to the current state of reality.

well, it doesn’t show that the GBP want more State control, it shows that they are severely deluded as to the current state of reality.

That seems to me as the typical retort whenever rightwingers are confronted by public opinion that doesn’t match up with theirs. Say hello to your friend chavscum (above).

The point is that people perceive that private companies already hold too much power and would like to see more state intervention in the delivery of services.

That much is undeniable. It also then undeniable that Britons don’t regard the state with as much suspicion as libertarians/right-wingers do because they would rather both played an equally powerful role rather than banish the state to as small as possible.

British public rejects libertarian ideology shock! And then, libertarians blame Britons as deluded fools shock!

Sunny,
what is your opinion on the sliding scale of 1-10?

Does that accurately reflect the complexity, nuance and detail of the insight gained from all your years of experience and analysis?

Opinion polls like this are facts for toddlers.

“The point is that people perceive that private companies already hold too much power and would like to see more state intervention in the delivery of services.”

You’re still not reading the numbers correctly. 44% would like power shared equally. Power is ALREADY currently more on the State side than private companies. With 20% wanting more state and 26% wanting more private companies, this just isn’t an argument for more state.

If power is already more on the state’s side, and yet people perceive that too much power resides with private companies, and would like a more equitable balance, what does that tell you?

“If power is already more on the state’s side, and yet people perceive that too much power resides with private companies, and would like a more equitable balance, what does that tell you?”

They ask that power be shared equally….and power is already more on hte State side tha nthe private company one. And yet the public call for yet more state power….despite the fact that the state already has more than they say they want?

Well, I’d call them deluded actually, as I did above. For they do not know how much power the State already has.

“what does that tell you?”

It tells me the public know something Tim Worstall doesn’t.

Well, I’d call them deluded actually, as I did above. For they do not know how much power the State already has.

Thanks, that was my point. As I said earlier, its typical of libertarians to call Britons deluded if they don’t follow them ideologically.

You’re still missing my point.

Those numbers show that the large part would like power to be shared roughly equally. Point two is that power is currently (and was in the recent past) on the State’s side of 50/50. Point three is that they thought in the past that power was too far to private companies.

From that you conclude that they want more state power.

My point is that the first three are mutually exclusive (in reality, at least, not in people’s thoughts). They thought that power was more than 50% in the hands of private companies when power was actually more than 50% in the hands of the State.

This isn’t a discussion of ideology, it’s not a discussion of what ought to be according to my lights or anything of that sort. It’s a simple pointing out that the British public were wrong about where power resided in the system. They thought that the private companies had more power than they actually did. This is the meaning of delusion: to hold a view at odds with reality.

“It’s a simple pointing out that the British public were wrong about where power resided in the system.”

Perhaps they weren’t wrong. Perhaps they know stuff that you don’t.

They thought that power was more than 50% in the hands of private companies when power was actually more than 50% in the hands of the State.

But that’s your perception.
The public actually think there is already too much power residing among private companies and would like more power shifted back to the state.

If you think people are deluded about where power really resides, that’s fine, but that’s still subjective. The fact of the poll is people perceive private companies have too much power over our lives as it is.

TW and Sunny its much simpler , people are cross with the banks and so they in some inchoate way feel like bashing them. When the bill for all this bigger state turns up they think differently .When the state orders them about they think differently .What percentage want higher taxes . Very few and in fact over the last year the long period in which positive results were obtainable on a services /taxes spectrum has ended. We saw this over IHT and its electrifying effect on the Polls .

I`d say to Labour , listen to Lib Con , you campaign on an extension of state power higher taxes and persuade people of the wonderful advantages this state will bestow . You do that , start now .