“Maybe Peter Whittle could let us know the last time he went on a march against the BNP”

Aren’t the BNP condemned by everyone pretty regularly?

Whatever you think of this article, the sight of moderate Muslims condemning the extremists would at least undermine the BNP’s message of hate.

I’ll try to address Peter Whittle’s comments in a constructive fashion:

> But I would ask the Baroness [Sayeeda Warsi], why were there no Muslim voices in that crowd angrily denouncing the protesters?

The “crowd angrily denouncing the protesters” were local people who had an association with the local regiment. The UK population comprises 3% Muslim, so on a statistical basis there might be no Muslim members in that regiment, possibly two or three. Perhaps Muslims who join the UK armed forces choose a different career path rather than their local regiment? Perhaps parents and family chose to stay away, knowing that the ceremony would be hijacked by idiots?

> Why did there appear to be virtually no Muslims amongst the crowds lining the pavement?

See above.

>Why is there no ‘Not in Our Name’ campaign by moderate Muslims?

Many moderate Muslims argued against the Iraq war (and slightly fewer against the war in Afghanistan). They frequently post here.

Sadly, these kinds of comments are common place amongst both conservatives and labourites. The implication that muslims have a special responsibility to condemn whatever actions happen to be taken by their coreligionists. It is the language of collective blame.

Richard, the article Sunny links is discussing Warsi’s Question Time appearance last night. During which, she did “condemn the extremists” in no uncertain times.

It’s incredibly rare that she’s on t’telly and I don’t have the desire to throw things at it, but last night I was actively agreeing with her on many occasions.

Maybe QT had her on with Moore in order to give her someone more insane and frothing to bounce of and look moderate against?

I think it’s noticeable now that since even Melanie Philips can’t have failed to notice moderate Muslim organisations condemning these nutjobs, the complaint has shifted to one that the nutjobs aren’t being condemned enough by moderates. There may not be an organised campaign, but there are plenty of “not in our name” responses to this sort of thing – e.g. a letter from the Luton Council of Mosques in today’s Independent.

@Charlieman

I think when he talks about “not in our name” he’s talking about the Luton protests, not the war. Still, I do seem to remember there being large “not in our name” demonstrations by moderate muslims after the 7/7 attacks. The muslim community would do itself no harm if it did more of this.

Whatever you think of this article, the sight of moderate Muslims condemning the extremists would at least undermine the BNP’s message of hate.

Given that Muslims have been all over the media condemning people like Anjem choudhary for years, one would really have to avoid any such media coverage to think this isn’t already the case.

Indeed, you would have to be mad or blind to imagine that the appeal of the British National Party’s politics has any relation to the behaviour of those groups whom they target.

But bottom line. What exactly were those protesters doing wrong?
I couldn’t care less whether they are Muslim or from Scientology.
They were saying something that is true. The Iraq war was and is an ILLEGAL one and all the tortures and brutal beatings and unlawful kilings at the hand of ‘Our Boys’ are a disgrace to the Land of Hope and Glory and Crap Tabloids.

director of some obscure organisation called New Culture Forum

Scary thought that our likely next education secretary is on the board of this shower, and they’re also very close to Boris.
http://www.newcultureforum.org.uk/home/?q=node/22

“The Iraq war was and is an ILLEGAL one and all the tortures and brutal beatings and unlawful kilings at the hand of ‘Our Boys’ ”

Were “our boys” going around killing children?

The response of Irish Catholics to the recent killings has been far more visible.

Whether that’s because the media has actively LOOKED for moderate Irish Republicans while concentrating purely on the Muslim lunatic fringe is a matter for debate.

Tom – hah, thanks for pointing that out.

It actually comes as no surprise that Anthony “I was just being provocative about black people” Brown, Daniel Johnson, Tim Montgomerie and Matthew Elliot are part of this lot.

12. There’s that video from the News of The World where ‘Our Boys’ are practically coming in their pants as they enjoy kicking the shit out of Iraqi teenagers. Remember?

As far as children are concerned, I shoud hope they didn’t do it deliberately, but the amount of Iraqi children that died as a result of an ILLEGAL invasion is just a disgrace.

The troops had no say in the invasion, that was a decision made by Tony Blair (and PURLEASE let’s not have 6th form bullshit like ‘That’s what they said at Nurembeg!’) and the people currently carrying out attacks on the civilian populations of Iraq and Afghanistan are not professional soldiers.

Claude, I don’t share the naked, opportunistic jingoism of the tabloids, but I don’t think that stance is unhelpful. If all the troops are responsible for going into Iraq, then we are even more responsible as voters. They should be held responsible and accountable when such incidents come to light, but I wouldn’t take an antagonistic attitude towards them.
(disclosure: my brother used to be in the army, but my stance has remained the same).

I’ve just seen that David Davies has called for an extension of the ‘Religious Hatred’ bill to cover such protests.

This is absolutely NOT acceptable.

Repellant though I find THIS protest, banning such protests sets a dangerous precident which could be used to stifle legitimate protests against those who ARE responsible for such wars.

Was the famous video from the News of the World and all the other PROVEN episodes of torture also the responsibility of the politicians only?
PURLEASE???

16,17
“The troops had no say in the invasion”.

Excuse me, but conscription ended in 1963.
I say it again: 1963.

This is not like VietNam when American kids had to join the army or go to jail or seek refuge in Canada.

These are soldiers who freely chose to join the British Army. The moment you do that, you accept that you are gonna do whatever they ask you to do. As nobody forced you, my view is that you become co-responsible.

And, I reiterate. Those episode of torture are proven. You cannot simply pass the buck and say “it’s the politicians”. God knows how respnsible Blair is. But all this jingoistic “Our Boys” stuff is frankly repulsive.

17, Sunny.
“We are even more responsible as voters”?
Oh yes. Certainly all those year who would carry on voting Labour regardless and who did so again in 2005.
Or those who do not think about a fairer electoral system is that important, one that would finally end the Labour/Tory duopoly. When the vote took place in the Commons in 2003, Blair got a majority of 179 MPs!
Which didn’t reflect at all the public mood.

TYPO in 21. “All those who”, without “year”. Apologies!

And, I reiterate. Those episode of torture are proven. You cannot simply pass the buck and say “it’s the politicians”. God knows how respnsible Blair is. But all this jingoistic “Our Boys” stuff is frankly repulsive.

I agree with you, Claude, but it does seem likely that the protestors were associates of Anjem Choudary, and thus more interested in PR than protest.

Thanks for the link, Sunny.

Soldiers chose to join the army, they do not choose which wars to fight: that is a political decision.

The only places that the military pick their own wars are military dictatorships and I don’t think we are ready for that.

#18 – how would that even work? This is (supposedly) religious people expressing hatred, not people inciting hatred against people on the grounds of their religion.

#9 Claude

[QUOTE]: But bottom line. What exactly were those protesters doing wrong?
I couldn’t care less whether they are Muslim or from Scientology.
They were saying something that is true. The Iraq war was and is an ILLEGAL [UNQUOTE]

Looking at the photos, the protesters didn’t seem to be arguing about the legality or not of the Iraq war. I’ve read banners saying: “Terrorists”, “War against Islam”, “Butchers of Basra”, “cowards, killers, extremists” etc. There are also a lot of hot-headed quotes in the media (but I agree we don’t know whether they were actually said or not).

Should the protest have gone ahead? Surely not. Firstly, doesn’t it give the BNP a great shot in the arm prior to the European elections? Secondly, are the troops responsible for the Iraq war? If you v strongly objected to something in the National Curriculum would you picket the staff carpark of the local school? No, you’d protest to the Schools Minister (Ed Balls) or his Government Dept or in Trafalgar Square …. but NOT the teachers at one school that happened to be carrying out government policy. The protesters have scored a big own goal but don’t seem to know it, I gather they’re expecting to repeat their action again and again. Oh dear.

#26 – do you seriously think these protesters didn’t want a backlash?

This is at the top of the New Culture Forum’s website:

“If the Right won the economic argument, then the Left dominates in the culture wars”.

As the global economy crumbles around us, is this contention at all wise? Or hopelessly deluded?

As the global economy crumbles around us, is this contention at all wise? Or hopelessly deluded?

I think hopelessly deluded is perhaps apt.

Al – timf is right, these guys actually wanted a backlash. They are those kind of nutters!

Guys,
the Iraq war started in 2003.
Unless you lived on another planet, most people by May 2004 (Abu Ghraib news) at the very least suspected the war was being waged on a dodgy basis and included some dodgy behaviour on the troops’ part.
Thousands of people joined the army AFTER 2003, fully and utterly aware of what was going on. This is why I don’t buy the innocent-as-lamb stance that some people here on LB seem to be taking.
Thousands of soldiers knew full well what they were signing up to.
They are NOT heroes.
In my book, heroes is something else.

@Claude: “Unless you lived on another planet, most people by May 2004 (Abu Ghraib news) at the very least suspected the war was being waged on a dodgy basis and included some dodgy behaviour on the troops’ part.”

On my planet, politicians have failed to own up for the people who have died or been brutalised in Iraq. Army Generals have owned up for their failure to command and control their own troops. I have yet to see an army recruitment poster promising that you sign up in order to abuse Iraqis.

Only a minority of the soldiers have been involved in abuses and many of those have already faced criminal charges; Tony Blair had the unanamous backing of his cabinet and they are all still walking the streets – or rather being driven down them in shiny black limos.

“Only a minority of the soldiers have been involved in abuses”
…wow…thanks very much!

Well maybe we should judge everyone by the actions of a minority of people they represent? Would that be okay with you Claude?

34. Well maybe we should judge everyone by the actions of a minority of people they represent?

a) Welcome to the world of British tabloids. Isn’t it exactly what they do with the Muslim population on a daily basis?

b) Because of the specific nature of the role they fulfil, the Armed forces need to guarantee that abuses of human rights will not happen at all. Too many such cases took place in Iraq. Obviously a minority, for god’s sake, but way too many and with disgraceful cover-ups all the way up to the highest levels. It wasn’t a one-off in Iraq!!!

It is actually ironic that it was thanks to the News of The World that we got hold of THAT video.

Shatterface, I have news for you. The trops in Basra are widely hated. They had to live in a fortified compound for years. Stop taking what the Sun tells you at face value. And what else is the Government supposed to say? They started this war. And they still go on record with la-la-land stuff about Our Boys, freedom and more empty rhetoric.

If you haven’t done so. Take a look at the film “The Mark of Cain”, from about a couple of years ago. Inspired by true stories in Iraq. It’ll give you a sense of what the climate was like.

I can understand people who were already in the Army by 2003.
But those who joined later. How can you then moan that “the politicians” sent you to Iraq?
Didn’t you know? Did you think it was gonna be round of Command and Conquer on Nintendo DS?