Yes, he must be a racist. It’s the only possible explanation.

Really, this is just ridiculous. You and Sunder have written a series of parallel posts, in similar terms and on similar themes about him. His post is a classic response to the fact that you appear to have been writing as a double act.

For God’s sake, the example he uses of people he can’t tell apart – the notoriously foreign-looking Ant and Dec – should have told you that this wasn’t a racial point. And I assume that really you do know it, and are just smearing him as a racist, which is despicable.

I was all prepared to post a comment saying that just because he was confused about names, it isn’t necessarily a race issue (people often enough get me mixed up with other Robs, Roberts, Robbies and even Richards and Ronalds and I wouldn’t assume it’s just because I’m white). But, having read Hannan’s article, it’s quite clear that he thinks that there is at least some reason why it’s OK for him to not even try to tell the difference between two people he knows perfectly well are distinct individuals.

Whatever the reason, it’s extremely bad manners and can only make him look like an idiot to any normal people who happen to read his blog (though the comments suggest that there aren’t many of them).

Where did I say he was racist? I’m merely pointing out what he said.

I must say, I’ve never seen you two in the same room together…

Sunny, to be fair, if you didn’t say he’s a racist you at least very strongly implied it. What, f not ‘racist’, would you call someone who refuses to “tell brown people apart”? That accusation carries a lot more weight than saying he refuses to “tell leftie bloggers apart”, although it’s really equally disrespectful to your individual views in the latter case.

Oh no, of course not, the ‘I can’t tell brown people apart’ title isn’t remotely an insinuation of racism.

I though it was a reference to your similar names rather than racial background.

I pointed out that Daniel Hannan can’t tell the difference between two people who happen to be brown. I’ve never met him, so I’m confused as to why he thinks we’re inter-changeable. Because we both wrote about his embarrassing article on Iceland? Hehe!

Next I’ll be accused of trying to shut his right to free speech down!

Nick – oh come on now, you’ve seen my beard. It’s miles better than anyone else’s.

That’s so disingenuous as to be beyond parody.

Is there something confusing you find about ‘sunder’ and ‘sunny’ Tim? Perhaps there’s something confusing similar about ‘jack’ and ‘john’ too? I’ve never really thought that, but perhaps there is…

I pointed out that Daniel Hannan can’t tell the difference between two people who happen to be brown

No, you didn’t – you said that he can’t tell brown people apart – and that’s a difference that goes beyond semantics.

Is there something confusing you find about ’sunder’ and ’sunny’ Tim?

Other than the fact that they are similar names, and that one could easily be an abbreviation for the other not especially. But that’s not what Hannan’s saying either – he’s portraying you two as Tweedledum and Tweedledee – two different people saying the same thing. And the fact that he compared you to Ant and Dec must have alerted you to the fact that this wasn’t a racial point (or a skit on your names either – after all Ant and Dec are pretty different). And the fact that you continue to insiunate it, even though you have backed away from alleging it openly is really a bit unworthy.

*”insinuate” obviously. Sausage fingers…

Can’t wait for Hannan to start slagging Cameron off once the latter is in office.

Watching the right-wing blogosphere moan about a Tory government will be absolute classic spectator sport.

Those who lick on Hannan’s ring had better lube themselves up for years of disappointment.

Sun – der….

Sun – eeee

Yeah I can see how that can confuse someone.

Actually, I think Hannan was being, if not racist, then at least culturally insensitive. But I did like the idea of Sunny and Sunder as some kind of bonkers liberal Ant and Dec. Although both physically and semiotically, they’re much more like The Pinky and The Brain.

Sunny: [typing frantically on a tiny computer] Sososo whadd’re we gonna do tonight, Sunder?

Sunder: [stroking his chin in a scheming sort of way]The same thing we do every night, Sunny. Try to take over the world!

Sunny: Don’t you mean ‘try to overwhelm the political thinkspace with rational debate through the power of the internets’?

Sunder: That’s what I said.

I said sometimes I can’t tell apart different brown people either – as opposed to Dan Hannan. The difference between the two statement also goes beyond semantics.

Really, sunny and sunder are similar names… and we’ve both mentioned that Hannan got it hilariously wrong about Iceland. Therefore we must be inter-changeable! Brilliant powers of deduction. Funny that Hannan doesn’t apply the same rules when he’s echoing (every day) what Iain Dale and Paul Staines also say. The right-wing blogosphere is one big echo chamber, and yet when two writers, who happen to have scarily similar names mention something similar, it’s a double-act!

As I said, I think it’s best to gently say that Hannan is covering up his embarrassment over Iceland’s election of a left-wing govt. Otherwise you’re reading into far more than I was in this cheeky post.

“you’ve seen my beard. It’s miles better than anyone else’s”

I would beg to differ, and will call Jennie Rigg and Mat Bowles as witnesses…

Daniel Hannan’s impact on the position of left-wing parties world wide would surely be eclipsed and possibly obliterated by Gordon Brown’s influence.

Now that Brown’s reputation for economic competence lies in tatters, his malignant presence anywhere in the world shames the local left wing who would be well advised to steer clear of him at all costs.

Laurie – genius…

Although, cranially at least, Dan would make a pretty convincing Brain.

I have trouble telling Tories apart. They all speak funny, went to the same school and have the same chin.

Laurie Penny strikes again. Excellent.
(Even better if I knew who The Pinky and The Brain were…I shall Google them now…)

Cripes…I just have…is that what they look like?!

Really, sunny and sunder are similar names

Just like the Ant and Dec that he compared you to then.

Look, this is clearly going nowhere. I think that by saying “Sometimes I can’t tell brown people apart either” you are very obviously implying that Dan Hannan says that “he can’t tell brown people apart”. As is clear in the tone of the Hannan piece, he’s having a (very mild) go at you and Sunder not because you are both brown, but because you are both lefties, and have both posted in very similar tones about him, on several occasions.

“Nick – oh come on now, you’ve seen my beard. It’s miles better than anyone else’s.”

It was practically rabbinical and certainly didn’t look fake. But that is exactly what you would want us to think.

Laurie that’s genius!

Look, my stroking of the chin works better because I have a beard to go with it. It doesn’t work with Sunder. Though, this point might also be lost on Daniel Hannan.

Andrew: I would beg to differ, and will call Jennie Rigg and Mat Bowles as witnesses…

Bring it!

“I’ve never met him, so I’m confused as to why he thinks we’re inter-changeable. ”

So what makes you think Hannan knows what complexion you have? I thought ‘Sunny’ was just a nickname, never having come across it before.

I’ve always said beard without moustache = left-wing; moustache without beard = right-wing. (Neither/both need further research.)

Sunny – you don’t half know how to push these nutter’s buttons, don’t you?

Good work!

I’ve always said beard without moustache = left-wing; moustache without beard = right-wing. (Neither/both need further research.)

Like this ol’ true blue?

;o)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_and_the_Brain for the bored/interested)

Come off it, Sunny, you’re blatantly Pinky. Part of Pinky’s job is to write letters explaining that really Brain has the best interests of the world at heart

moustache without beard = right-wing?

Rosa Luxembourg would beg to differ.

26: Surely facial hair per se is left wing these days? Not too many hairy Tories (Anne Widdecombe excepted).

And Uncle Joe Stalin might take issue with your second point…

#28 – actually, he was part of my evidence base…

“”moustache without beard = right-wing? Rosa Luxembourg would beg to differ.”

Was the whole thread a set up so that Laura P could deliver that line? Well worth it if so.

Trotsky had quite a natty ‘tache/goatee combo. And, to buttress Tim’s theory, you could have forded a river with Nietzsche’s moustachios.

The whole thread was in fact a set up so I could point out how excellent my beard is… and that Nick is just jealous. Possibly Daniel Hannan too.

but to cement tim f’s point – has anyone see the moustache on Geraldo, of Faux News fame?

Yeah, I know the one – looks like a caterpillar’s conquered his upper lip.

tim f

I have trouble telling Tories apart. They all speak funny, went to the same school and have the same chin.

But they don’t have chins….

Receding chin, un-chin, call it what you like – they’re all the same & they should all stop stealing our internets and go back to their mansions in Surrey.

You should see my unemployment beard: a handlebar-sideboard combo. Wish someone will offer me a job soon as I’m beginning to resemble a plumber in a 70′s Dutch porno…

I’m disappointed that it has to be me to come in this late and demand pics! We need evidence if we’re going to form reliable, unbiased opinions here.

Though I notice Andrew didn’t trust me to stick up for his beard.

“Receding chin, un-chin, call it what you like – they’re all the same & they should all stop stealing our internets and go back to their mansions in Surrey.”

True gentlemen who reside in mansions do not come from Surrey, Surrey is full of people who work for their money rather than inherit it. No self-respecting mansion-dwelling gentleman actually works.

“Wish someone will offer me a job soon as I’m beginning to resemble a plumber in a 70’s Dutch porno…”

You have just provided a solution to your own problem – become a porn star.

Debi, my beard has grown considerably since we last met, while Mat and Jennie saw me just over a week ago…
Also, Jennie seemed far more impressed with it than you, and would thus be more likely to side with me

@ Laurie (15) ROFLMAO.

“They are called, confusingly, Sunder and Sunny.”

You have to be a fucking small-minded, unworldly twat to think those two names are easy to confuse, or otherwise you are consciously making a joke out of two Asian men’s names – and for what purpose?

Ravesh – Ravinder: ooh, can’t tell them apart! Confusing!

Ahmed – Amin: ooh, how confusing!

Sara – Salma: which is which?!?!?!

Stupid, or racist. Take your pick.

Is there anyway of getting Sunny and Sunder to do the London Marathon next year dressed as Pinkie and the Brain? I’ve got my £20 right here right now if they agree.

FWIW I’ve lost count of the times I’ve told people my name and they insist on calling me Mick or Michael. The culprits are usually Irish – perhaps someone could let me know if “Mike” is culturally offensive to Irish people…

And I think it’s time we let the cat out of the bag. “Sunny Hundal” is a nom de barbe of the one and only Keith Flett.

I don’t see how you lot get confused about Ant and Dec.

Ant always stands on the left.

Fact.

I sometimes confuse Michael Collins, the Irish Republican with Michelle Collins who tried to kill Ian Beale.

In fact they both died in prison.

Oh, and ‘fess up – who DIDN’T do a double take when momentarily confusing the authoritarian Conservative MP David Davies with born-again Civil Libertarian Conservative MP David Davis a few weeks back when the former was being a knob over the anti-military protests?

Racists!

I can’t stand Daniel Hannan. Or do I mean Jim Davidson? I can never remember which is which.

Just in case you don’t like clicking pingbacks:

http://willrhodesportmanteau.com/2009/04/27/pinky-and-the-brain/

“Or perhaps it’s that elusive sense of humour Iain Dale thinks only right-wingers can have. ”

I have never met a Tory with a good sense of humour.

I have met loads who think they are funny, but thats not the same thing. No doubt Dale is one of those types.

Sunny: your beard is a paltry pretender to Andrew’s beard’s throne, which would, quite frankly, make Brian Blessed green with envy.

I second the request for pictures, which would settle this in the time it takes to load a .jpeg.

It could be worse: Theresa May v Teresa May, anyone? (If I’d included links, one would be NSFW and the other’s a porn star…boom-tish)

Oh, Dan Hannan is going to turn out to be prime, isn’t he. I can’t wait. Either he’ll cover his own party in shit or he’ll jump to UKIP.

Alix, I think it’ll be more likely a case of ‘both’/'and’, given enough time.

What if he rises the ranks of the Tory party? Most Tory MEPs bleat the same shit as UKIP, except they try not to do it too loudly in case people notice all the expenses and perks they pocket from the institution they criticise so much.

My prediction: Hannan to be offered a safe Tory seat at general election after next.

Sunny Hundal – beard, no hair, etc
http://images.google.co.uk/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=Sunny+Hundal&btnG=Search+Images&aq=f&oq=

Sunder Katwala – hair, no beard, etc
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=Sunder+Katwala&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=

I’d be very surprised if he didn’t get a safe seat in 2014.

To be fair, that is 5 years away from now. He could gaffe it up and be exposed as a customer of low quality rent boys, despite his wife & 2.4. Or perhaps the media will just tell him to fuck off cos he is such a stupid prick. Not that that has stopped Tories in the past though.

Probably names.

Although: Hannan is a tit. Wouldn’t put it past him. Maybe letting in immigrants is as great a “mistake” as the NHS, to him.

HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE

This is one for Unity to mull over:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_z5hT1P0X79c/SNaCH6QWt2I/AAAAAAAACVA/dtmMqJ9ntlA/s200/sunny_hundal_140x140.jpg

http://centurean2.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/sunder_katwala.jpg

Hmmmm…

Actually, the title of this post is objectionable as it falsely accuses of Daniel Hannan of racism (and in a faintly racist manner). It’s a truly cheap shot, and I’m sure you, Sunny, would have been foaming at the mouth if someone had used a similar tactic against you.

How long ago did Hannan praise Iceland by the way?

At least Hannan is articulate and a good speaker. Part of the problem is that most politicians are so dull. Tony Benn appears to be the only left wing politician who demonstrates clear diction.

It’s true, definitely true. That aristocratic edge.

“I have the advantage of a distinct beard”

Advantage? Hmm…

His point was that you both have similar sounding names and have both written articles criticing him for praising iceland 5 years before Gordon Brown labelled them terrorists.

In a similar vein, if there were two Conservative MEPs both praising Iceland and democracy, one called Daniel and the other Danny I’m sure you’d struggle to tell them apart too.

The Independent diary mentions this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pandora/pandora-bigmouth-strikes-again-hannans-back-1675820.html

Can I just come back on those who think there was nothing to challenge or question at all here. I think that’s wrong, though nor do I think it is the biggest thing in the world.

If you want to deconstruct what he writes, I think it becomes quite clear why it is legitimate to be mildly offended by it, though it was doubtless intended as a bit of rib-poking. (And I have certainly been winding Hannan up – though over what he has written and said, rather than, eg his posh background).

1. It starts as a gag about names

“They are called, confusingly, Sunder and Sunny”.

Maybe Hannan or somebody else would write “they are called, confusingly, Daniel and David”. (It might also be that the confusion and the humour he intends the audience to find depend on the sense that these are confusing names to remember. There is quite a tradition of this too, though a diminishing one).

2. But that wasn’t the objection. A number of people suggest that the reference to Ant and Dec shows that Sunny’s interpretation can’t be right.

But I would disagree with that.

“as with Ant and Dec, I’ve never been entirely clear on which is which. I once appeared on the BBC with Sunny (or possibly Sunder), and he seemed a very nice fellow”.

The Ant and Dec reference turns it from something about similar NAMES to a SIGHT/VISUAL gag – so that when Hannan appears on TV with me (and spends an hour chatting while watching Question Time) he can pretend it was probably Sunny, or maybe not.

So it is definitely now a joke which echoes and resonates with the [well established] genre of “they all look the same to me”. If that is accidental, it is very clumsy. (And he is talking about two people who look very unalike).

(Indeed, it might well be that the Ant and Dec reference may well even be deliberately in there to innoculate against this interpretation, which some have taken it to do, though in fact it does the opposite if you think about it. I think that is possible because I suspect the author may be aware he is being mildly transgressive in a giggly schoolboy way – he is doubtless proud to be anti-PC – but he may want to signal too that he isn’t crossing the line. If that were right, he’s dug himself in, perhaps unintentionally)

3. Hannan wishes to be dismissive of myself and Sunny. In order to make the joke about our interchangeability work, he can not identify us properly by using our surnames [names], nor can he remember who he has met or been on TV with [visual].

Both of those are a very clumsy way to be dismissive of us as lefties, or to say we write similar things about his deregulatory passions. (This rudeness is of course a pose and in person he has heightenedly good manners).

I am confident that he is not a racist; I was accusing him of being juvenile and puerile. I think it is a deliberate bit of schoolboy giggling, and I think that the ambiguity is part of the giggling, while trying not to cross a line he shouldn’t.

So yes, the joke was “just a joke”, but it was an ill-judged one. It was mildly offensive to those it was about, and not I think unreasonably so.

On the whole I think it is the sort of thing Old Boris might have written to be casually funny, and that New Boris would steer miles clear of for good reasons. (I have never written about those Boris columns and would not attack them for him: they weren’t racist. they were playing with caricatures and stereotypes. But I think part of the point was to titilate a readership to show that he could be mildly transgressive and use terms that are anti and non-PC in a way that he could defend. His problem was that comedic commentary and being a politician are different, though I don;t think attacking him by taking them out of context was fair). But would he repeat the trick now as a politician? Of course not.

It wasn’t accidental, Sunder.

These sorts of people are Janus-faced, and occasionally the real character is allowed to show through.

And having somehow never heard of Pinkie and the Brain can I particularly think Laurie for extending my cultural horizons.

On the substance of that, I had very much thought that benign (and futile?) megalomania was indeed the point of Liberal Conspiracy.

Whether or not it’s benign is a matter of opinion. For that matter, whether or not it would know Liberal if it stood up and bit it is a matter of opinion. But that’s why some of us cling on here, of course.

Regarding the important subject of this comment – I don’t think it’s fair to compare Sunny and Andrew on the beard front; they’re in completely different categories, after all. If it wasn’t cliche, I’d draw an analogy between facial hair and popular spheroid fruit.

———

On another note, I’m amused in a actually-not way about how quick people have been to jump on Sunny for pointing out the problems inherent in implying he and Sunder are interchangeable.

You don’t see this about of collective bile when people actually post racist/sexist/homophobic &c sentiments in comments. But if someone dares to imply a statement someone else made might have been clumsily insensitive – and look what happens.

It just goes to show that in our society, still the worst thing you can possibly say is to accuse a white man of having privilege.

@Debi Linton – spot on.

Also note that if I were to write “fuck off chavscum, and don’t come back until you have something worthwhile to say”, the usual wingnut suspects would pile on and chastise me for lowering the tone and/or not debating properly.

Funny how that works.

Unfortunately, this discussion will almost certainly provoke “lefties can’t take a joke” or “lefties scream racism” responses from Mr Hannan and his friends, which can only reinforce stereotypes on both sides of the fence.

What has been overlooked is that Hannan’s observational quip is entirely unoriginal. In Love Actually, the Bill Nighy character refers to “Ant or Dec” when being interviewed by the duo.

Terence and Philip from South Park might have been funnier.