(Grammar please: the contempt in which they’re held. )

Crikey, Guido could have written those three pithy paragraphs!

Needless to say, I agree.

“When it comes to disregard for the people they’re meant to representing, they go even further by having part-time jobs on the go as well. ”

Can’t say I have a problem with this. I rather like the idea that politics is a public service rather than a career. We weren’t exactly badly governed back in the days when MPs were paid nothing. How many Disraelis and Gladstones do we have in the current House?

Perhaps we should try picking them by lot next time.

For me, this level of corruption is far less of an issue than the attacks on civil liberties, the mishandling of the economy and the invasion of Iraq, but since other people think it’s a serious issue I’m happy to use it as a stick to beat the government with.

It’s not a scandal. It’s a ‘scandal’. I propose that we do nothing to reform the system.

!Can’t say I have a problem with this. I rather like the idea that politics is a public service rather than a career. We weren’t exactly badly governed back in the days when MPs were paid nothing. How many Disraelis and Gladstones do we have in the current House?”

Oh yes, the browns shirts long for a time when children worked in factories or little boys were sent up chimneys. Typical Tory to reminisce about a political time when 60% of the public did not even have a vote.

And as for that cobblers about public service, please, pass me the sick bag. The old political system was a cosy gentlemen’s club full of public educated toffs who got into power on the back of their family name, and used Westminster as a way of making money through dodgy deals.

Hmm, self-declared left-winger describes scandal a good thing because it will encourage reaction. Bizarre.

Personally I’d hope there was no scandal because they were behaving appropriately in the first place.

I find it impossible to be grateful for small mercies when they are outweighed on such a massive scale. I also find it impossible to be sympathetic to any politician who fails to show contrition by admitting simply following the rules (which they set themselves) is not good enough.

Just as driving under the speed limit is no excuse for causing a death on the roads.

Then again for me it wasn’t a case of ‘having faith’ or ‘not having faith’ in the political system. Anyone who’s seen it close up knows there are abuses and abusers who will go to extreme lengths to justify their behaviour, so it’s the fault of the electorate for failing to hold our representatives to account.

The cause of the problem is our own complacency.

Let’s ask what journalists were doing for all those years responding to the petty gossip and personality politics of who’s up and who’s down rather than doing the detailed donkeywork.

Where were the public service values of the commercial sector?

Sally, a few weeks back you were arguing that politicians (along with judges, police officers, etc) should not be paid out of the public purse.

And for christ’s-sake stop using the term ‘brown shirt’ for everyone you disagree with: it devalues it as a critical term and makes you sound like a fucking retard.

Personally I’d hope there was no scandal because they were behaving appropriately in the first place.

Yes, but we’re not living in a utopia.

Let’s ask what journalists were doing for all those years responding to the petty gossip and personality politics of who’s up and who’s down rather than doing the detailed donkeywork.

Go ahead – I have no problem with that. Although a few journos who actually do investigative work would argue that they had major problems getting this info out in the first place.

For me, this level of corruption is far less of an issue than the attacks on civil liberties, the mishandling of the economy and the invasion of Iraq, but since other people think it’s a serious issue I’m happy to use it as a stick to beat the government with.

I’m not using it as a stick to beat the govt with, I do think those issues are important too.

But I recall a conversation last week with someone who I won’t name, and we were discussing the need for a more responsive political system. He said that MPs were just refusing to listen and didn’t think that the demand was there and therefore could get away with ignoring concerns that many (on the left and right) had about how opaque the system was.

He then added that sometimes the only way to force open the system was to do it forcefully (through FOIs) and shame MPs into doing something.

Now, my point is that we’ve come to a juncture where there is no other real alternative. The decision to go to Iraq was part of the same problem – that MPs felt essentially shielded from criticism and no could force them to respond on particular issues.

So I see it as part of the same problem.

(cjcjc – alright, alright! changed it)

Sally

Oh yes, the browns shirts long for a time when children worked in factories or little boys were sent up chimneys. Typical Tory to reminisce about a political time when 60% of the public did not even have a vote.

Sally you’re a Tory troll. The sooner you come out the better.

Shatterface “Sally, a few weeks back you were arguing that politicians (along with judges, police officers, etc) should not be paid out of the public purse.”

No I was not. What I was doing was demonsrating the hypocrisy of Tory voters who always want to talk about people ‘scrounging or living off the state, ” while all the time living off the state themselves through jobs like judges or policeman or subsidies to landowners or MPs.

Please get it right because otherwise you come across as a “fucking retard.”

Not sure why you think having a part time job is worse than fiddling expenses (ie stealing). There are long hours when Parliament is not sitting and I’d rather see MPs maintaining contact with the outside world than conspiring and gossiping in the bars. Obviously if they are going to take jobs with government contractors then that is not appropriate.

One consequence of the Telegraph story is that we all now know the best way to keep parliamentarians honest about their expenses: keep the current system and publish the receipts. There’s no reason for David Cameron and Nick Clegg to have cosy chats with Gordon about reforms that will introduce new loopholes. Stick with what we have, and let those who abuse the system be exposed.

Incidentally, the argument that publishing addresses is a security vulnerability is facile. “Security by obscurity” is rejected by almost all security experts; if I was a nutter who wished to attack a useless MP, I could find out where s/he lives without the aid of expense receipts. Or I could just hang around outside John Lewis on Oxford Street waiting for an MP to go shopping.

I genuinely hope that the Telegraph delivers the next revelations (presumably about Tories, LibDems and smaller party representatives) over the weekend. Public fury will lose its edge if the story is drawn out.

The sums of money that may have been claimed unreasonably are relatively small and I don’t consider the scandal to be on the same scale as taking cash in brown envelopes to gain insider access (note). It is the disconnectedness from “the right way to behave” that raises anger. But will any constituency party chairmen and women be demanding that MPs stand down as a consequence? I think few, so that disconnectedness extends beyond MPs.

Note: Two weeks ago, two peers were suspended. The Times reports: “They were secretly recorded making claims that they could assist in changing laws and discussing fees of up to £120,000.” Which means that they will be back in the House of Lords in twelve months.

Good post Sunny.

I’m getting more and more annoyed with hearing each fucker in this (and by fucker I mean Government Minister fleecing the tax payer) trot out the line ‘I’ve done nothing illegal, it’s all within the rules and I’ve no other comment.’. >.<

And exactly who was it that created these laws eh?

Labour has had 12 years to reform the expenses system, yet it turns out that many of its top ranking figures have milked that system for all it’s worth. Yes, this isn’t a bigger issue than Iraq, civil liberties or ID cards: but it’s this sort of shit that makes people think voting and politics is all a waste of time, and that politicians are all scumbags.

Thank you very much Labour. I’d like to see any Labour supporters explain right here right now what they’ve done to influence their own cabinet and their own ministers, and why it has amounted to fuck-all. I won’t vote for their party, but they really have the nerve to come here and argue they’re any better than the Tories when Labour have ripped off the people of this country and turned another generation off politics.

If you’re a member of Labour, you are responsible for these pilfering goons. If you wanna cry about how the party isn’t democratic any more and you have no control then why the hell are you still in it?

I mean, FUCK. Do they have so little regard for the public that they think they can fiddle all this shit and then blame the system? The system they’re in a position to change? How did they think they could get away with it, and didn’t they think about how it would look?

Sunny’s right, this is indicative of just how disconnected and “shielded” politicians have become from the rest of us. I suspect when the Tories get their expenses published, Labourites will resort to the old game of pointing out how the other side is worse. Stuff that.

Their irresponsibility has screwed our economy, screwed our foreign policy, screwed our public services and screwed our trust. And by not giving a shit and not having a clue in general, and using immigrants or Muslims as scapegoats whenever they needed to justify more pointless laws, people are pissed off enough to actually elect the BNP in some regions in less than a month’s time.

Thanks Labour!

Sunny, you’ve forgotten the “Our expenses are THIS big!” caption for the picture.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8039273.stm

Brown’s brother for cleaning – £6,577
Straw’s council tax – £1,500
Blears’ furniture – £5,000
Prescott’s two shit seats – £210.79 and £112.52
Woodward’s mortgage – £100,000
Beckett’s pot plants – £600
Watching these bastards get kicked out of office next year – priceless.

The Tories, policy-wise, won’t be any better. But perhaps this ritual humiliation might force them and everyone else to shape up. We live in hope.

Good point Trumpton, amended now.

15 – “If you’re a member of Labour, you are responsible for these pilfering goons.”

Sadly, no.

I did go back and check my membership card, but there was nothing about “Labour MPs are required to check with party members before submitting their expenses claim forms”.

“Their irresponsibility has screwed our economy, screwed our foreign policy, screwed our public services and screwed our trust. And by not giving a shit and not having a clue in general, and using immigrants or Muslims as scapegoats whenever they needed to justify more pointless laws, people are pissed off enough to actually elect the BNP in some regions in less than a month’s time.”

That is some seriously weak analysis of why and how bad decisions got made.

@19 – lol, I didn’t expect that! I think it would look better without the credit, btw, not that I’m ungrateful.

On a serious note, I share the disgust at the sheer greed and mean-mindedness on display in these expense claims but can’t really share the outrage. Is this ‘scandal’ really all that surprising? I mostly feel apathy and a slight disappointment that my low expectations have been met.

I hope the Telegraph will also publish a list of those MPs who claimed little or nothing (if there are any); they don’t deserve tarring with the same brush and their constituents should be told they’re not a part of it.

In fairness to Prescott, I can understand him spending £300+ on toilet seats.

Don Paskini

“…bad decisions got made”

I love the passive voice, don’t you? It’s so good at eliding responsibility.

I agree, and remember discussing this was someone else about all the good MPs who haven’t abused their position.

Out of the cabinet, I believe Ed Miliband comes out smelling of roses – so well done to him. Anyone else to highlight?

Can’t wait to see what’s there on the Tories.

Brown’s brother for cleaning – £6,577
Straw’s council tax – £1,500
Blears’ furniture – £5,000
Prescott’s two shit seats – £210.79 and £112.52
Woodward’s mortgage – £100,000
Beckett’s pot plants – £600
Watching these bastards get kicked out of office next year – priceless.

And that’s just the start….

• Barbara Follett, the multi-millionaire Tourism Minister, claimed for private security patrols outside her London home costing more than £25,000. The parliamentary fees office, which is supposed to monitor claims, warned Mrs Follett that her claims may appear “excessive” if made public, but she was not deterred, saying she felt unsafe in Soho after being mugged.

• Keith Vaz, the former minister who now chairs the Home Affairs select committee, bought and furnished a flat in central London at taxpayers’ expense despite living just 12 miles away with his wife in a £1.15 million property. He claimed more than £75,000 for the flat.

Mr Vaz also changed his designated second home for a single year to a property he owns in his Leicester constituency. During this year – 2007-08 – he claimed £1,000 for a table and chairs, £750 on new carpets, and £2,614 for a pair of leather armchairs. He also claimed for 22 cushions, including 17 made from silk costing £15 each. During the course of the year he rented out his London flat.

• Margaret Moran, the Labour MP for Luton, spent £22,500 of taxpayers’ money treating dry rot at her and her husband’s seaside house 100 miles from her constituency – days after switching her “second home” there.

The parliamentary authorities were concerned that the work broke the “spirit” of the rules. However, the MP’s claim was not blocked. Miss Moran’s expenses appear to be among the most questionable of any MP.

Over four years she also spent thousands of pounds on three separate properties, switching between Westminster, Luton and Southampton and renovating each home in turn.

• Phil Hope, the Care Services Minister, has spent more than £37,000 on refurbishing and furnishing a modest two-bedroom flat in south London.

• Ben Bradshaw, the Health Minister, switched the designation of his second home to a property he shares with his partner in west London. Although the couple initially split the mortgage costs, Mr Bradshaw now claims the entire interest bill on the property – despite owning only half the property.

• Phil Woolas, the Home Office Minister, claimed for items of women’s clothing, tampons and nappies. The parliamentary rules only allow expenses which are “exclusively” for MPs’ own use so it is not clear these items were justified.

• Greg Barker, the shadow climate change minister, made £320,000 after buying a flat with the help of taxpayers’ money, and selling it after only 27 months. He is the first senior Tory to become embroiled in the expenses row, but details of other prominent Conservatives will be disclosed in coming days.

• Barry Gardiner, the former environment minister, made a profit of almost £200,000 after buying a Westminster flat and claiming thousands of pounds to renovate the property. Mr Gardiner’s main home is only eight miles from Parliament.

Filthy stinking thieving twunts

I don’t need to remind you about the Purnell Welfare reforms or the largesse we find for other assorted tosspots. Utter arseholes.

I’m sure this is all “within the rules” – but, by god, it stinks.

In any decently run democracy we’d be demanding the nationalisation of the noose factories. I don’t care if they run at a loss.

Where is this all leading? Will it necessarily lead to a more responsive political system? I sincerely hope so.
Many years ago the Italian political establishment was rocked by “tangentopoli” which then led to the so-called “mani pulite (clean hands)” and the end of the old political order. The power and influence of the Socialist Party was decimated, the Christian Democrats splintered into numerous shapeless asteroids, the Communists began a long period of metamorphosis towards first a “Labourite” and now a USA-styly “Democratic” future, any remaining Stalinists were left to fester in the constrictive tiny pool of Rifondazione Comunista and even the old Fascists of MSI took on a more democratic and responsible form. So after all this “cleaning up” and reform of political parties as a response to being outed for corruption…..Can someone please explain how on earth Italy ended up with Berlusconi!?
Of course it could never happen here in the UK! Could it?

“Oh yes, the browns shirts long for a time when children worked in factories or little boys were sent up chimneys. Typical Tory to reminisce about a political time when 60% of the public did not even have a vote.”

You are talking nonsense, I long for the time when feudalism existed and nobody had the vote.

Will the expenses of all people who were MPs in the previous two decades be published? I’d really like to know about Blair, Major and Thatcher.

“Not that the Tories will prove to be any better of course. When it comes to disregard for the people they’re meant to representing, they go even further by having part-time jobs on the go as well. How many jobs does Boris Johnson have now?”

This shows Sunny at his dreary, snooty, narrow-minded, prejudiced worst. Questions off the top of my head:

1) Is it only Tories who have second jobs then?
2) Is earning money legitamately from a second job really worse than abusing your expenses?
3) Does working amongst the people “you’re supposed to be representing” really make you disregard people more?

Open your mind Sunny, prejudice is neither big nor clever.

>Where is this all leading? Will it necessarily lead to a more responsive political system? I sincerely hope so.

Only if enforced by the Electorate from the bottom. At hustings. In local papers. At surgeries. etc.

M.