I’m doing the tactical voting dance in the South-East. Anyone got any theories on which left-wing party to vote for in order to (a) keep BNP out, (b) reduce UKIP power and (c) reduce Tory power? I’m leaning towards the LibDems or the Greens. South-East has two UKIP MEPs. I’d really like to see that go down to one, even if that one MEP is a Tory. But it’d be much better if we could shunt at least one of the seats to a liberal party.

If you feel duty-bound to vote Labour by your membership of the party and this prevents you from voting for who you want to vote for, then perhaps you should consider leaving the Labour party? This isn’t a scurrilous comment. I am genuinely interested in why someone who, from what I can tell, has politically very little in common with the current Labour party would persist in being a member.

NO2EU is just UKIP/BNP for racists who like to tell people at parties how they’re left wing revolutionaries. It’s “platform” is the usual “they come here taking our jobs/women” drivel.

I think this is the sort of tripe that belongs on LabourList. Vote for whoever you want but if all you can in justifying your “urge” for a Labour vote is that you are a member of the party, then I don’t think you’ve really said anything worth saying to the wider liberal-left community.

You’ve not put forward any argument here, just “My party, right or wrong” – that’s neither progressive nor any reasonable basis for how to decide how to vote.

its tiny cadre organisation managed to alienate a base of mass support that took generations to build

And who let them do that? After what they’ve done, you will support them regardless. I wonder what actual political principles you possess, outside of tribalism.

“…that tragedy is compounded by the reality that many of its supporters are working class people..”

And if they are, whose fault is that? MPs of all political shades, who have had their greedy snouts in the trough, and still continue to protest that it’s not their fault. But the worst are Labour MPs who are in Government but have consistantly failed to address, or even hear, the legitimate concerns of the working class voter and have continually eroded the rights and freedoms of the citizen. New Labour are Big Brother.

The only real reason to back it is as a symbolic means of registering support for just the kind of new workers’ party that it conspicuously refuses to become.

Eh? So you should vote for them because it shows you support something they are not? That’s no reason to back them at all! What nonsense!

Here’s more on No2EU:

http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2009/04/12/no2eu-desperate-useless-and-reactionary/

And more about their campaign “launch”:

http://hammer-and-sickle.blogspot.com/2009/05/no2eu-launch-fucking-disaster-says-cpb.html

I think this is the sort of tripe that belongs on LabourList.

So anyone who expresses support for Labour should be censored off here? What rubbish. Please discuss the article, not dictate our editorial policy. I’m getting sick of people (cjcjc especially) who keep telling us what should be posted on to LC.

Of the 11 points listed on No2EU on Wikipedia, I agree with… perhaps 1 of them. Not the party for me then. As a Europhile, it looks like the LibDems are the only option. Just a pity they don’t have a hope in hell of winning the seat I’ll be voting for.

I didn’t say it should be censored here. What I’m trying to say is that the OP doesn’t give any substantial reason to vote either for Labour or for No2EU. This article has no argument. It’s just a bit of a “I’m sorry I’m voting Labour.” I say it belongs on LabourList because that’s where you normally get articles which express support for Labour without any substantial reasoning behind them.

If Dave wants to put forward a reasonable argument based on evidence that these electoral choices are worth blogging about, then he is by all means welcome. I’ll say it again: for Labour he gives no reason beyond his own membership to it, and for No2EU he gives the most ridiculous fudge that voting for them is an expression of support for something they are not.

Here’s another thing from the article to be discussed:

“Sadly, the momentum behind the British far right now looks unstoppable”

Evidence? The Sun, hardly known for talking up left wing electoral viability, has published a poll today:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2430063.ece?enlargePopup=true&imageId=803956

It’s got the BNP in pretty low numbers. UKIP are up, yes, but the BNP hasn’t so far seemed to benefit substantially from all this.

I am sick of Labour’s members constantly talking up the impending success of the BNP, as it consistently proves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Remember Margaret Hodge? No wonder they’ve messed up being in government, if this is what their tactical capabilities to amount to. It’s one thing to warn; it’s another thing to despair, which is what the OP does. Unstoppable? Perhaps that is the case if you’re going door to door asking working class people to vote Labour. Try advocating a different choice, and perhaps things might not seem so bleak after all.

What I’m trying to say is that the OP doesn’t give any substantial reason to vote either for Labour or for No2EU

Yes exactly, and readers can make their own judgement based on that. Dave does give good reasons to vote Green – and readers can make their own judgement based on that.

#1

You can’t vote tactically in these elections; you can’t vote against a party as it’s basically impossible to guess which party would claim the last seat and stop the BNP. The best you can do to stop the BNP is vote, vote for anyone except the BNP (and who is likely to get a seat), thus raising turnout and diminishing their percentage of the vote whilst increasing the vote for one of the parties that will come above them.

Similarly in terms of stopping the Tories/UKIP, the best thing to do is to vote . In actual fact Labour were very close to getting a second seat last time and would be the party to vote for to reduce Tory/UKIP power if last time’s results were repeated precisely, but the point is that they won’t be repeated precisely and it’s impossible to guess who will be closest of the non-right-wing parties to the final seat. So like with the BNP, the way to reduce Tory/UKIP power is to vote for the party you like best and who have any chance of gaining at least one seat.

Non-partisan bit over.

I’d urge a vote for Labour – whatever you think of the Labour government, Labour MEPs vote with the Party of European Socialists in Brussels so if you want to increase the socialist vote in Brussels you should vote Labour. If you want a difference between Labour MEPs and the Labour government, Labour MEPs voted for the working time directive whereas the government stopped it applying to Britain.

To all those who criticise Dave for urging a vote for Labour:

This post isn’t about why Dave is in the Labour Party. I’m sure he could write another post on that. He comes about as close as it’s possible to get under Labour Party rules to urging votes for other parties. Cynics might assume his phrasing was a way of doing just that through code. I think it’s a bit strange to attack him for urging a vote for Labour when it’s obvious he has done it purely so he can write a post extolling the virtues of other parties!

I on the other hand, unreservedly urge a vote for Labour. If for some reason Labour weren’t standing I would vote for Green (reluctantly), and if Labour didn’t exist and the BNP were not a threat I would vote No2EU. But I think there are positive reasons to vote Labour and will do that without hesitation.

“But I think there are positive reasons to vote Labour and will do that without hesitation.”

Like what?

On the ‘tactical voting’ concept, I pick the party closest to my personal beliefs (currently the LibDems) and vote for them. Maybe I’m just terribly old-fashioned, or missed a memo.

Kentron, as I suggested above, your approach is the right one tactically for these elections. Pick the party closest to your personal beliefs who have any chance of getting a seat and vote for them. You can’t possibly second-guess which party is most likely out of Labour, Lib Dems or Greens to stop the Tories/UKIP/BNP gaining a seat/more seats.

Also as above, positive reasons to vote Labour in the European Elections include that they’re the only British party to vote as party of the Party of European Socialists group in Brussels, that they supported the working time directive, also for equal rights for agency workers, better standards of health and safety, consumer protections on airlines & mobile phone companies, more stringent rules on waste & recycling, etc

Thanks for the namecheck!

Labour MEP’s also voted with PES to hide MEP’s expenses, make it harder to organise party groups and are fairly central to keeping the EU closed to scruitiny. Its better to vote Lib Dems (Alde) or, if you prefer and they can win the Greens or nationalists (both Greens-EFA) who actually support positive reform so that maybe one day the EU’s accounts won’t fail auditing.

Tim @ 12

You can’t vote tactically in these elections; you can’t vote against a party as it’s basically impossible to guess which party would claim the last seat and stop the BNP

Disagree. I live in Yorkshire. In the last election, the Lib Dems got a single seat, and were pretty much half way between 1 and 2 seats. Unless something changes significantly, Diana Wallis is thus safe, but our #2 candidate is unlikely to get in.

However, there’s a reasonable chance that another more minor party will cross the line and get a seat. I’m waiting for further polling data (one YouGov poll in the Sun isn’t good enough), but I’m considering voting Green—if they beat the BNP by just a few votes, they get that last seat. However, I do want to see solid polling data, specifically because that one poll so far does show a significant change, and on the figures, the Lib Dems could get a 2nd seat, as their vote is holding up much better than last time in Euro polls, UKIP appear to be stealing Tory votes but not Lib Dem.

Dave, you say

Sadly, the momentum behind the British far right now looks unstoppable

Do you have some evidence for this? The Sun poll puts them on 3%, they need much much more to get a seat anywhere, I’ve seen no actual on-the-ground evidence that they’re going to get any votes outside the normal handful of wards where they sometimes win Cllrs, that’s not enough to get a Euro seat.

@Sunny: FWIW, this article is the sort of thing I want to see more of on the site (and the sort of thing I should be writing more of as a Lib Dem, but, y’know, lazy)

Fair do’s Sunny.

I’m a member of the Greens because I support their policies – not the other way round. I know it sounds idealistic but if more people voted for the parties they believed in rather than the one they thought was the “least worst” then the parties they believed in would stand a better chance of being elected and we might not be in as much of a mess as we are in now.

I’m not an expert on EU expenses by any stretch, but I do know that Labour MEPs have their expenses audited independently so I think they’re pretty much ahead of the game there. I would hope most people don’t just base their votes on expenses but vote on the substantive policies that their representatives vote for or against.

last comment aimed at #17

#18 – I think that’s a dangerous game. I was talking about the South East anyway, which is what comment #1 referred to.

MatGB- The Greens have no chance whatsoever of taking a seat in Yorkshire and Humber. To be honest it looks like they will have a hard fight just to hold their current members in London and the South East. As far as I am aware the East and North West constituencies are the places they have selected as their other possible gains.

Tim F- Thats only one example- the PES and EPP (right, though not the tories after this time) work together to keep the EU’s internal processes as close to a black box as possible. Its terrible, and given the fact that the EU- even if a good project- is badly run, inefficent and probably has many scandals that make the MP’s expenses look not so bad hidden in it, I think voting on who will deliver any kind of improvement in governance is a very reasonable line.

If it’s a choice between a smaller party who might not get elected but have policies you believe in, and a larger party that is corrupt and incompetent, then voting for the latter surely achieves nothing but pretty much kills your principles until all you have left in the way of politics is a membership card, like Dave?

In London, the South East, Eastern region, and the North West, a Green vote could potentially make a huge amount of difference. Elsewhere, if turnout is what defeats the BNP then why not vote for your principles instead of whichever large party is going to win anyway?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/may/15/green-westminster-mps-expenses

Rayyan- “Turnout defeats the BNP” is what a lot of people say but its not actually the case. What makes it harder for the BNP is turnout for parties that win seats. Under D’Hondt, only parties that win seats have any impact on the count at all. That slogan is just that, its an easier message to get across and works fine because its what 90% of people will do if they do vote.

So if you want to vote to stop the BNP, or other parties (UKIP, tories) then you need to vote for the party you prefer that has a chance of winning a seat in your region. I mean, vote otherwise if you so desire of course, but it will have no impact on the outcome or anything else unless you are worried about saved deposits…

Oh, and on BNP polling- they certainly weren’t polling 5% before the last elections but thats what they got. The BNP almost certainly have a similar relationship to polls as Sinn Fein and the DUP in NI do- people won’t say they are going to vote for them to pollsters, but will in the ballot box. To what extent this is true we will find out in due course- but I am certain they will not be 2% down on their total 5 years ago. At that point they were in a much worse state for contesting elections.

Yes,also bear in mind that polling was done before their free mailing which is going out now and tends to boost small parties as people realise they’re standing in their area.

Euro Elections and the right!

http://tinyurl.com/wheresclarky

As a Labour Party member, I am constrained to urge a Labour vote next month. I’m sorry that I cannot find many reasons beyond simple loyalty so to do, and I can sympathise with those on the left who will be placing their cross elsewhere.

Politicians will continue to take the piss with claims for £2600 TVs, for non-existent mortgages, etc, for as long as people put up with it.

Left-leaning voters have an alternative in the Greens; right-leaning voters have UKIP or Libertas. But if you vote for thre big parties, you’re giving threm the green light to continue troughing.

cjcjc “Thanks for the namecheck!”

Priceless! The troll thinks he is important.

I have to admit, even as a Labour supporter myself, I, too, feel a political allegiance to some of NO2EU’s policies. Not least there engagement with this underused concept of social dumping – the utilisation of cheap immigrant work, a notion kept alive by anti-racists on the back foot involved in a horrid conversation with a racist. Such a conversation might appear something like this;

racist : but, you know, these immos come in, don’t they, and take our jobs

anti-racist caught on the back foot and looking for ways of communicating with this twat without using words like ‘gross domestic product’ or ‘its the capitalists!!’ : what!! Oh come on mate, don’t be harsh, most immigrants do the jobs natives don’t want to do

This is the reality, and I don’t support it, on the basis that it extends the BIG LIE to nationals of poorer nations, that UK is a country of middle earners and you could do it too. The Lisbon Treaty is the megaphone for this BIG LIE, and promotes social dumping. Its the logic of the pro-big business EU that cheap labour is exported and utilised in post-industrial nations. And NO2EU have been bold enough to try and tackle it. The big three don’t tackle it nor the progressive case against the EU, and fringe parties to the contrary of Lisbon Treaty supporters tend to be on the far-right. Opposing the Lisbon Treaty should definitely not be limited to protectionist economics. And anyone who claim NO2EU are UKIP with beards and sandals or nationalist, are denying the EU fair criticism from those who are, in my opinion, the only ones qualified to do so: the left.

I bid you goodnight.

I was most amused by UKIP’s Euro elections leaflet. Some highlights:

* The slogan “put your country ahead of any political party” – on a party political leaflet.
* The helpful reminder that Brussels, unlike Westminster, uses a PR system so “Your vote really does count” – alongside denunciations of the undemocratic nature of the EU.
* Several distinctly European candidate names (“van der”? Get back to Holland!)

From our internal polling, BNP seems to be flatlining on 4%, as that Sun poll suggests.

UKIP of course, storming ahead.

I think it’s funny that the 2 main parties are trying to guide their disaffected voters toward UKIP or Green party in order to stop BNP. They are really scared bout them this time? Yet Yougov poll only rates BNP on 4% so it seems the anti BNP effort is working like charm? That single false statement in the ocean of swill all the political parties has floated is the one that makes me twitch, the circus continues unabated.
The working classes & I’m one of em don’t owe the establishment anything nor any new ideology. They want revenge on Labour in fact they want blood & lot’s of it so why not vote for the nazi fascist BNP! Maybe this time it is a case of better the fascists you know than the fascists you don’t?