Agreed. Completely.

Anyone who votes for the BNP because they feel they’re somehow more righteous than mainstream politicians, ought to be given a subscription to Private Eye – and left to review the performance of existing/past BNP councillors.. They’re, almost to a man, the most corrupt and outright criminal party you could vote for.

The facts speak for themselves.

/sign

Fabulous post

I’m not one for calling people that haven’t had my advantages scum.

You might as well believe in original sin.

“They are wrong, and they hold wrong views because they’re wrong.”

Sigh.

These views don’t exist discretely, they exist on a spectrum, a Tory might be two steps from a UKIP supporter and a UKIP supporter might be two steps from a BNP supporter.

There ARE societal problems due to things like scarcity of resources and government letting people down. So potentially poorly-educated people offered easy answers (“It’s the muslims”) by hucksters like the BNP might well go along with them.

“The logic goes like this: we haven’t given the BNP what they want, therefore they are getting more support. I’d say this: you shouldn’t give the BNP what they want, because on almost every subject ever, they’re as wrong as wrong can b”

Which logic? Sounds like a straw man.

If BNP supporters don’t have enough. say, social housing, and that’s what they want, and only the BNP promise that to them (irregardeless of the BNP’s real agenda/ability to deliver) then we either need to deliver, or come up with a better solution.

BNP supporters are not the same as the hardcore of BNP activists.

Some of them are racist. Some of them are ignorant. Some of them are paranoid. Some of them are xenophobic. Some are likely, lonely and scared. But BNP support is a symptom of problems that need to be addressed. If there was a natural “Scum” base, then they’d get the same vote year-on-year.

As someone who would like to see his party elected to government one day, I don’t think it’s appropriate to abandon swathes of people in this country.

Yes, we need to hammer home to erstwhile BNP supporters that immigrants are not the cause of their problems. The working class, of all races, suffers from Thatcherism as dutifully preserved by Blair/Brown.

The lack of housing and employment can be laid at the door of the utter fucking shite inflicted on us in the 1980s. If we had no immigrants, we would still be suffering in this regard.

I’d like to know what the fuck the BNP were doing when I was fighting for the working class against Thatcher. I bet fucking top brass were on the government’s side, such is their hatred of anything truly left-wing.

We must not attack rank and file BNP voters. They cannot be dismissed as reactionary and permanently closed off as some would. It is necessary to point out vigorously the fact that the BNP don’t give a fuck about working-class problems. I remember them saying to me that they wanted higher unemployment, more reposessions, and for housing to get even worse because it would fuel their support, which is all they care about.

Drive a wedge between their supporters and leadership now. I will not turn my back on my mates who have struggled alongside me just because they have not the wrong idea about how to solve our common problems.

Thatcherites are the true enemy, not beleaguered people on estates who are suffering as a consequence of libertarian shite bringing the country to its knees. A real alternative to thieving MP scum must be offered now.

How long before someone claims on here that the BNP are left-wing?

Not today- I think the turps have taken their toll so the libertarians are all out of their heads. About 11am tomorrow morning should be a good time, once they’ve cracked open a bottle of aftershave and are feeling like sharing their views.

“I’d like to know what the fuck the BNP were doing when I was fighting for the working class against Thatcher. I bet fucking top brass were on the government’s side,”

The far right were largely against miners, they saw striking as a communist (read:jewish) plot to take over the country, iirc there is a good post on Lancaster UAF about their involvement with scabs and so forth.

Yes, exactly.

They don’t speak for the working class, they speak for their own attempts to gain power.

They don’t give a fuck about our grievances because they are scared of the real solution to our problems.

how long before someone claims on here that the BNP are left-wing?

wait for it…… wait for it….

Any second now. Chavscum? LFaT? Cjcjc?

How about Devil’s Kitchen or Obnoxio?

Who’ll be first to the carnival of utter shite?

how long before someone claims on here that the BNP are left-wing?

They are not left wing.

They are right wing.

But they are statist. And Stalinist.

Like the left wingers

Happy now?.

So all these scum were just born scummy then? No social causes we have to worry about, just spontaneous scummery?

I’m as left-wing as it gets, and I always hated the USSR. All the struggles of the miners, our ancestors, and our heirs today such as these G20 protestors, were against the state whoever nominally controls it because in fact rule is exercised by the same people from the same class as the capitalists.

We are against government control of the individual. We support our own organisations which can negotiate on equal terms with the bosses, and oppose a government which gives unlimited power to employers and forcibly prevents us from fighting back using the police and other forces.

Yes, we know that the state is and always has been a device for filth to increase their power at the expense of the working class. Accordingly, the section of the left I belong to is not statist. We also oppose shite like ID cards for the same reason.

So are these people the Evil Poor?

Politics does not really exist on a spectrum, I don’t believe that UKIP supporters are at some midpoint between Tories and Fascists. The extremes jut out of politics like pathologies, and many of their supporters seem pathologically incapable of rational thought.

That’s what separates the BNP and Stalinist nut jobs, a lack of reason, which can present itself as hate. And politics is not about hate, at least I don’t think any one here would think so.

This pathology can be societies fault, and if the Left did a better job then support for these groups would shrink. Not because they would be appeasing their claims, but because they irrational ground of their worries would be eroded.

“but because they irrational ground of their worries would be eroded”

Nonsense, sorry, I mean “but because the irrational foundations which their claims are built on would be eroded”

The initial post is 100% right that it’s lunacy to claim the BNP are popular because the left have forced multiculturalism on people. But overall I agree with ‘david brough’ above – people do not vote BNP because they were born that way.

It’s true the worst response is to do what New Labour did and join in the anti-burqa fearfest, under the mistaken impression that this type activity means you’re “in touch” with the “white working class” and that this will prevent votes switching to the BNP. It won’t – it’s essentially saying to people “yes, the tabloids are right that immigrants are destroying the country and all your lives, but we won’t do anything significant about it because we respect human rights.” It doesn’t help in the slightest.

What needs to be challenged is the whole basis of the idea that immigrants are stealing the housing and destroying our culture; traditional British culture is being wiped out by Tescos and Starbucks, not by a few Halal butchers in Bradford. People know that they can’t get houses and that the sense of community has gone – they just don’t know why. The tabloids provide them with a simple explanation for the problem; the BNP provide them with a policy solution for it (send ’em home).

Demonising people for following that apparent ‘logic’ solves nothing, unless we can provide an alternative explanation and solution for these problems. The real economic and political explanations for these problems are not always complicated – but they are very awkward for those (like Labour and the Tories) who believe the economy must be organised to suit the needs of corporations.

how long before someone claims on here that the BNP are left-wing?

Enough of the patronising remarks people, much of the BNP’s agenda is broadly left-wing. And why is racism associated with the right-wing? What’s the connection?

The fact is that the BNP are charmless, often xenophobic, often racist oafs who are being provided with open goals by the established parties. Having a controlled, organised and competent, immigration policy would be a start. This has nothing to do with “keeping darkies out”. It’s just like having a controlled, organised and competent shoe shop.

You can rantingly categorise their target voters as “scum”, “evil poor”, whatever, but this won’t reduce their vote. Never mind, at least you’ll have been able to bask in the warm glow of your own superiority. ‘Cos it’s all about you right?

’m as left-wing as it gets, and I always hated the USSR. All the struggles of the miners, our ancestors, and our heirs today such as these G20 protestors, were against the state whoever nominally controls it because in fact rule is exercised by the same people from the same class as the capitalists.

We are against government control of the individual.

David. You’re a fucking libertarian.

You just didn’t know it.

Join us. You’ll be very welcome.

“Join us. You’ll be very welcome.”

No he wouldn’t – he’d be drummed out for heretical thought-crimes within minutes of joining.

Thanks for the namecheck Rayyan but I have never suggested the BNP are left wing.

Anyway, on the main point, I don’t think your insult-based strategy is likely to pay off somehow.
And given the apparent rise in BNP support are you suggesting the number of scum has suddenly increased?

And given the apparent rise in BNP support are you suggesting the number of scum has suddenly increased?

Yeah this is the bit I don’t get either. It’s funny how the number of scum in the UK at any one point in time is strongly inversely correlated with how corrupt/unrepresentative/unpopular the three main parties are perceived to be. I hate the BNP as much as you guys, but I don’t think demonizing their supporters is the way forward.

I think it’s vital to emphasize that the inevitable increase in support the BNP will receive in the European elections is PRECISELY a a protest against the mainstream parties and NOT a mandate for racist policies whatever the BNP might claim in the aftermath otherwise the mainstream will drift towards the Right rather than cleaning up their act.

Take race/immigration policy out and the rest of the BNP policies are identical to old Labour.
Lefties feel uncomfortable with this and therefore try to slap the extreme right label on the BNP which is clearly absurd.

david brough:
I’d like to know what the fuck the BNP were doing when I was fighting for the working class against Thatcher. I bet fucking top brass were on the government’s side, such is their hatred of anything truly left-wing.

Nick Griffin has repeatedly extolled the virtues of Thatcherism. How loudly or quietly he does this merely reflects the nature of the audience he’s trying to target at that moment.

WhatNext?!:
Enough of the patronising remarks people, much of the BNP’s agenda is broadly left-wing.

Go on, which bits?

And why is racism associated with the right-wing? What’s the connection?

Xenophobia. Nationalism. Insularity. Scape-goating. Imperialism. Determinism. Acres of history during which the right championed racist beliefs and the left either opposed or at least questioned them. “If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Liberal or Labour.” That’s not to say the right is uniformly racist. But you don’t get to declare year zero and pretend everything that ever happened, didn’t.

john zims:
Take race/immigration policy out and the rest of the BNP policies are identical to old Labour.

Let’s see…

The BNP are implacably against the EU. Certainly there were people in the Labour Party who held that position in the 70s, but Old Labour eventually came to recognise that EU membership holds many benefits, and there’s no remnant of Old Labour that wants out altogether now. I think we can agree that blanket EU rejectionism is associated with the right (with the right of the Tory Party and with UKIP).

They’re authoritarian, with a strong “law and order” platform. Labour has consistently been the party of libertarianism; the party that pursued penal reform, abolished both corporal and capital punishment, liberalised divorce, legalised abortion and homosexuality (all things the BNP would, if it could, reverse), etc., etc. When the Labour governments of the 40s and 60s did these things, the opposition came from the right – from the Tories, from the Ulster Unionists (not all of them, by any means, and not everybody in Labour always supported libertarian reform, but broadly speaking, the left supported it, the right opposed it). A strong law and order platform can be associated with New Labour, but again is more commonly associated with the Tories, and the “hang ’em, flog ’em” rhetoric in particular is associated with the rabid right.

They’re protectionist. This was the defining policy of the Conservative Party for the first century of its existence. It was consistently opposed by the Liberals. It was opposed by Labour for over 90 of its first hundred years. It was a defining current in both Conservative and Fascist parties up until WWII. Allowing for the regressive nature of the policy (so, accepting that it shouldn’t be expected as a defining policy of conservatism today), this places the BNP on the far-right.

They profess their support for the NHS. As has every politician who actually wants to win votes in the UK, since 1948. Was Margaret “the NHS is safe in our hands” Thatcher an Old Labour type, then?

They support investing in public transport. But, although they think BR was privatised in the wrong way, they are opposed to renationalising it (so, not Old Labour); they want to cut road tax and fuel duty (a hot-button issue on the right, I believe); and they double-back to “law’n’order” concerns as the reason people aren’t using public transport.

They oppose foreign aid. Old Labour created the DFID.

They want to bring the Irish Republic back into the (or, at least, some sort of) Union. Guess where Old Labour was on the Irish question.

Finally, they want to restore the link between pensions and earnings. Old Labour would, undoubtedly, do that. That one I will give you. One swallow, but alas, no summer.

Lefties feel uncomfortable with this and therefore try to slap the extreme right label on the BNP which is clearly absurd.

Just to be clear here, when you say “lefties”, what you mean is everyone who has any working knowledge of history and/or politics. And when you say “absurd”, what you mean “only disputed by desperate loons”.

I’m not sure what all the twattery is about. The BNP, as far as I can see looking in, is polling about 4% +/- the normal 3% what has anyone to fear from those right-wing nut jobs?

IF you put a real importance on the locals and European elections – then I suppose you have a point – I don’t and never have. The turn out will be low, really low – unless my calculations are totally out of whack – and that hasn’t happened for a damn long time.

Even IF the BNP poll any surmountable vote – is it really that important? The stupid shits will go back to type and be voted out – once parliament gets its act together and really makes a change.

The protest vote looks, strongly, to be heading in the direction of the UKIP – Christ Himself knows why – but the ordinary punter has had enough of what is representing them in the big house – and this is an opportunity to slap the main party’s across the face – and they deserve it.

I’m like david brough – as left as left is – I look at the badge of socialist as an honour certainly not to be hid under the bed.

Put a BNP candidate in a debate with – say – a Tory and they will lose hands down, and theoretically they are not that far apart.

What I do object to in the OP is saying that a certain section of the UK population are scum. How can we dictate to our fellow citizens that they are scum because they don’t believe in what we feel is right and correct? Isn’t that a main part of the OP? Saying that the BNP feel obliged to be right because they are not understood, misrepresented, outside what is the norm – Fair-do’s?

The BNP as a party are, well crackers, nuts, imbeciles. Those who support them whether through the ballot box or simply saying that they have an idea that the things they say are ‘common sense’ DO feel aggrieved, but it is up to the main party’s – or a brand new one to say that they know why people feel that way and do something about it.

For way too long the ‘lowest of the low’ have been ignored – and to do that will, eventually, come back and bite you in the arse! And – by the looks of things – being bitten isn’t as nice as some thought it would be.

If you want the working-class vote – go get it, but I can guarantee, you had better be prepared to be treated like the Kingdom Hall official who has just allowed 19 kids to die even though there was enough blood in the blood bank to save 100.

*Google Kingdom Hall if you didn’t get that – but I am sure you did.

Whilst agreeing that 99% of people who vote BNP are actually that way inclined in the first place, I object to your futile attempts to exonerate the labour movement. The TUC historically dug its head in the sand in certain areas (e.g. the Lancashire mill towns) over the issue of who their representatives were as compared to the ethnic composition of the workforce. It was also that nice Tony Blair who violently exacerbated the formerly peaceful relationships with our Islanic communities. John Reid was also a shining beacon of division. Who invented the ridiculous notion of a “moderate muslim”? You either are or you aren’t. However, this stupidity did serve to justify an illegal war not only on a nation but also on a whole culture. The BNP merely pick up the rubbish after the dust has settled.
There is also a ridiculous notion that just because an organisation has the right label then it can do no wrong. When Solidarnosc was campaigning for Lech Walesa for President a documentary on BBC at the time showed the heroic Gdansk shipyard workers saying “The problem is we have to get the Jews out of Government”!
No matter how many times you give yourselves a buzz by printing the words “fascist scum” it will not change the almost universal fact that the far right hardly ever win elections from their own efforts but its the left that frequently loses the plot.

I’d only half-agree with the OP. Anyone who’s a serious, committed BNP supporter is simply an ignorant, unpleasant bigot. Not the fault of multiculturalism or Nude Labour, just a simple reflection of the fact that every society contains a certain percentage of ignorant, unpleasant bigots.

But there are probably also a certain percentage of “floating voters” who may not know much about the BNP, may be vaguely considering a protest vote, and therefore may be amenable to being swung back to the mainstream parties by campaigns like Hope Not Hate. With that latter group there may be a benefit in trying to engage with them rather than insulting them. (At least to their faces, anyway.)

“The far right were largely against miners”

I believe the so-called Official National Front backed the miners as part of their Strasserite left-wing phase. The BNP under Tyndall supported the government.

“how long before someone claims on here that the BNP are left-wing?”

I’d actually be fascinated to know what Left-Liberals make of the left-leaning Nazis like Gregor and Otto Strasser who took the socialist elements of Nazism seriously and wanted to nationalise the land and factories.

Or the BUF in the days before they adopted anti-Semitism and were primarily concerned with creating a Keynesian and socialistic planned economy.

Gregg – Ouch.

“I’d actually be fascinated to know what Left-Liberals make of the left-leaning Nazis like Gregor and Otto Strasser who took the socialist elements of Nazism seriously and wanted to nationalise the land and factories”

Perhaps right-whingers can tell us about what Hitler’s view of the Strasser brothers was. No, since you’re historically illiterate I’ll tell you. Gregor was murdered at Nazi hands and Otto was driven out and joined the resistance. Their faction was crushed by close allies of free market businessmen close to Hitler.

Yes- really an integral part of the Third Reich, weren’t they?

I’d actually be fascinated to know what Left-Liberals make of the left-leaning Nazis like Gregor and Otto Strasser who took the socialist elements of Nazism seriously and wanted to nationalise the land and factories.

Vulgar Marxism at its very most vulgar.

Or the BUF in the days before they adopted anti-Semitism and were primarily concerned with creating a Keynesian and socialistic planned economy.

A fascinating one, this. Mosley was a Labour Party member who tried to get them to accept a radical economic policy, something which the leadership weren’t keen on at the time but the membership were. The “Mosley Manifesto” was not Keynesian, as Oswald said himself, but it was certainly a lot less conservative than the status quo. It was hardly socialistic: basically centralised reformist stuff, which still assumed capitalism would be there & wouldn’t go away. Same for Keynes, which was why he always struggled making any headway with Labour (that & the fact he kept on offending Labour movement senior members whenever his sole friend & contact within the movement introduced him to them). There was a vote on the Manifesto which Mosley narrowly lost.

As it happened there just wasn’t support for an egoist aristocrat within the Labour movement, & Mosley only made a name for himself (if not a secure political career) when he formed the BUF (initially forging “The New Party” with a paltry number of MPs loyal to him). Now here’s the important part:

Mosley’s backing came from a Conservative. To be precise: the owner of the Daily Mail, who covered him very, very heavily in his newspaper. On one occasion he even wrote him a letter saying that although Mosley was a fascist & he was a conservative they still shared many of the same aims & Mosley was worth his support. & it was given: Mail coverage was extensive and entirely uncritical (even after the infamous Olympia affair, where Communist activists attempting to disrupt the meeting were beaten to pulp). They quite obviously championed the BUF & this was quite clearly because of the owner of the paper’s stated views & intentions. There was quite clearly a shared identity as members of the right during the stage in the BUF’s career when it seemed like it would get anywhere. What is crucial to remember is that Labour splits happened all the time. The Independent Labour Party, the Socialist League were two other examples of Labour sects which wanted some form of “True socialism”. Neither of them got anywhere because building a mass movement is hard.

The reason the BUF enjoyed some initial success is because they appealed to racists instead of socialists. This attracted them key support amongst the Tory press, which the socialist splitters had most certainly not enjoyed. If it had stayed a set of economic radicals with no racist edge they would have gotten precisely nowhere, or rather: just as far as every other Labour schismist faction has gotten (i.e. close enough to nowhere). Instead Mosley was lionised by the Mail & enjoyed the benefits of such treatment. Prior to the national newspaper coverage Mosley was a minor player, it he was a big name political star who could pack the Royal Albert Hall.

An active anti-fascist movement put an end to it, or at least that’s the conclusion of Martin Pugh, the best historian I’ve come across who’s researched the subject.

In summary: the BUF became a household name because a right-wing paper read in many households referenced & praised them incessantly. The BUF died because left-wingers fought it tooth & claw.

Also worth pointing out that Churchill, a latter-day hero of the right, was not by any means a typical Tory and was ostracised by the majority of the Tory party in the 1930s, in part for his opposition to Hitler, and that these elements continued to undermine the war effort long after Labour and the Liberals had pledged their support for it.

“Labour has consistently been the party of libertarianism;”

You must be using a very odd, indeed inaccurate, definition of libertarianism.

Another fucking leftie from the West Country patronising us about immigration, from perhaps the whitest place in England. Do you have cream tea with Billy Bragg? The man who loved ethnic diversity so much he ran from Barking to Dorset. What a cunt! Anyone that does not recognise that levels of immigration is an issue is seriously deluded and to be honest is irrelevant.

Always be wary of those that scream their anti-racism credentials the loudest. They are often battling with their own closet prejudice. “There is no ‘indigenous population’ anyway. I don’t go out on my council estate and see mud-painted natives going fishing with a coracle” This says more about your own racism, pal. Of course, if you use a literal definition of ‘indigenous’ nobody can claim it unless they live in East Africa.

Its a sad day for the socialists when they have little to offer for the voters, instead they fight a left-wing civil war with the BNP.

“Yes- really an integral part of the Third Reich, weren’t they?”

You appear to have comnpletely missed my point. i never claimed they were representative of the regime. I just wondered what people made of their ideology which appeared to be a form of sincere left-wing fascism (whereas one could easily make the case that Hitler simply pretended to be left-wing).

Chav, I have cream teas with Billy Bragg. We make a point of slagging you off at every one of our earnest, humourless discussions of Leninist theory. What the fuck are you going to do about it, eh?

I’m pretty fucking certain the reason Bragg left 85% white Barking wasn’t to escape ethnic diversity.

Possibly not – but singing the praises of diveristy from Dorset is simply very funny.

Plus, a lot of wealthy Asians and blacks leave inner city areas in exactly the same way as those who engage in “white flight” do.

OK, there are two different things at work here:

1) the BNP view, that people leave urban areas because they’re filled with weird new people who have an alien culture

2) the sane view, that people leave urban areas because they’d rather have a bigger house with some green space for their kids to grow up in

Billy Bragg isn’t at all hypocritical in singing the praises of diversity if he’s moved to Devon for reason 2, and given that the district he’s left – although urban – is overwhelmingly white-English-working-class, reason 1 wouldn’t make any sense anyway,

I saw him at the Edinburgh Book Festival a couple of years ago – very very earnest and slightly out of his depth with very well informed audience.

“I believe the so-called Official National Front backed the miners as part of their Strasserite left-wing phase. The BNP under Tyndall supported the government.”

Meh, even if it’s true, as a statement it ignores the factionalism of the far right at the time, enemy of the enemy and all that. Everything you need to know about the ONF’s ‘Strasserism’ (which was just another approach of achieving the same ends, a response to ‘the oppression of Jewish capital’) is encompassed by the fact it basically split up when they had to go cap in hand to the Jewish chronicle asking for money, which of course griffin was so repulsed by that he ended up (co) founding ITP.

There were certainly far right funded anti labour groups like ‘self help’ either way.

“I’d actually be fascinated to know what Left-Liberals make of the left-leaning Nazis like Gregor and Otto Strasser who took the socialist elements of Nazism seriously and wanted to nationalise the land and factories.”

Maybe you could ask Ernst Thalmann.

John B, you are showing your ignorance of areas like Barking if you believe 8yr old census info is a guide to the population changes in such places. In fact, white English children are fast becoming a minority in local schools. People are desparate to move away. Even the hard left Dagenham MP, used his second home in fashionable LB of Kensington to get his kids into better schools.

London is full of people who spout cliche’s about loving the diversity, but segregate themselves in their own (normally very white) social cliques. Once their children get to school, its “fuck this diversity shit, I want my children going to a majority white school like I did, and where English is not the second language for most”. They usually say, their kids need fresh air or more space. There’s plenty of space in Dagenham, you can get a 4 bed house for £200k.

People are rolerant of immigration at levels where people integrate. Despite, the myths perpetuated by lefties, places like B&D welcomed small numbers of migrants. Its when large numbers arrive, fail to integrate and threaten the cultural and social identity of long before established communities, that tolerance ends. Some are unable to move away, but most will follow Bragg.

“John B, you are showing your ignorance of areas like Barking if you believe 8yr old census info is a guide to the population changes in such places.”

Billy Bragg moved to Dorset in – wait for it – 2000/2001.

Of course, black, white, diverse or otherwise, Dagenham is a dump.
I’m sure that was the primary motivation for moving out.

@48 hahaha! win.

@49 yes, quite: the reason people with money get out of Dagenham and go to the country is so they don’t have to send their kids to crap schools where they’ll get bullied for studying, not because the other kids at said schools are brown. Data points supporting this include: private grammar schools having a higher proportion of ethnic minority kids than the population at large; white working class kids having poorer educational outcomes than ethnic minority kids…

City dweller, successful fella
Thought to himself oops I’ve got a lot of money
I’m caught in a rat race terminally
I’m a professional cynic but my heart’s not in it
I’m paying the price of living life at the limit
Caught up in the centuries anxiety
It preys on him, he’s getting thin

@50 link your sources, otherwise people will assume you’ve pulled them out of your arse. Even if you haven’t, they show schools in B&D are still 2/3 white British, which is some way from your emotive bollocks about ‘English a second language for most’ (especially as most ethnic minority kids speak, erm, English as a first language).

And the *figures* for new EU migrants were pretty accurate. The *projections* weren’t, because they didn’t know when drawing them up that the UK and Ireland would be the only EU countries not restricting new EU migration. Conflating data with projections is either breathtakingly dishonest or breathtakingly ignorant – especially when the projections turn out wrong because of a clear and obvious external change.

Joy to the world,
the troll is banned.

47 chavcum . well put.

52. john b . 1/3 immigrants – big difference from national average.

So the BNP aren’t lefties then?