It is perhaps a little insensitive – but its hardly outrageous is it? I hate the Standard and won’t buy it even under supposedly enlightened new leadership. But it isn’t as though it is condemning innocent people or peddling lies or serving as a mouthpiece for one side of that awful situation or another… oh wait?

Yes get it banned. That is the liberal thing to do…

Yes get it banned. That is the liberal thing to do…

At least we don’t send around legal writs over stupid things eh Guido?

The myth that you got sent a legal writ should really end here.

Never the first to leap to the Evening Standards defense, it seems clear the ad is being critical of the heavyhandedness of the policing of recent demonstrations. The campaign as whole is clearly aimed at creating a new identity for the paper, of which this stance is a part, and in that sense is sharing in an outrage at what happened to one of its vendors.

“The myth that you got sent a legal writ should really end here.”

Lol, sorry, just amused by the cognitive dissonance in that sentence.

Martin – Which two ideas?

The myth that you got sent a legal writ should really end here.

Hey, why don’t you get your mate Donal Blaney to intervene again, since you believe in free speech so much?

Also, does that belief in property rights include ripping other people’s images off without attribution?

Oh, and this reminds me Guido. Funny you claim to believe in free speech, when you’ve done exactly the same – comparing a logo to the Swastika along with your mate Iain Dale.

http://www.order-order.com/2008/04/questions-on-progressive-governance/

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-labour-macht-frei.html

What, one rule for the libertarians and another for the lefties is it?

It is perhaps a little insensitive – but its hardly outrageous is it?

Margin4Error – a man got killed at that event. You don’t think it’s a bit stupid to use that event as an ad gimmick?

The myth that you got sent a legal writ should really end here.

Are you denying you threatened to sue over your history of trying to form an alliance with the BNP?

There’s also the fact the Standard lied about Tomlinson’s death when it claimed that protesters threw bricks at the police medics who were helping him.

Sunny, I think it’s in bad taste, but I wouldn’t try and have it banned.

I’ve not said anywhere it should be banned 🙂

It’s our right as citizens to complain if we find an ad offensive and disgusting. Just pointing people to the link if they so wished.

Sunny I didn’t try to get anything banned in that link. I just had a bit of fun at the government’s expense. You know it did look a bit like a swastika, which is probably why they hastily changed the logo over-night.

You want an advert banned because it is tasteless? How is that liberal? That is the kind of thing the Christian Moral Majority crowd do. You know, the illiberal types.

Guido, are you actually reading the words on the screen or the words in your head. Sunny said he hasn’t said he wants it banned!

Leon if you use deductive reasoning, which obviously you don’t, you will infer that the objective of complaining to the authority responsible for banning adverts, might be to have them banned.

If you wish to merely protest that it is shocking than contacting the advertiser would make more sense.

Happy to be of help to the hard of thinking.

Perhaps Paul Staines has a point. Perhaps we should listen to his account of that event and be prepared to recognise that he didn’t actually issue a legal writ on the day.

(Psst! ‘Guido’, while you’re about it, would you care to also correct the ongoing myth about a retraction that doesn’t exist?)

#1 “It is perhaps a little insensitive – but its hardly outrageous is it?”

!!!!!

Ian Tomlinson was one of their own fucking vendors! He was trying to get home from his shift selling the fucking rag when he was attacked and killed by the police!

Isn’t this simply about having the slightest bit of respect for your own workforce, than some great matter of freedom of expression? But why would such a matter ever cross Tatler “Geordie” Grieg’s sloane mind? Rather than have the ASA ban the advert, I’d like to see the Standard’s vendors go on strike or protest one way or another.

Sunny Hundal,

Whilst you’re here:

Why start this new conversation when you have yet to back up your previous assertion that Melanie Phillips doesn’t care about human rights?
(refer to my and Lilliputs earlier postings in the John Pilger conversation started in January 2009)

It’s polite to finish one thing off before launching another.

“Also, does that belief in property rights include ripping other people’s images off without attribution?”

Many libertarians are anti-copyright.

Back on topic, how is complaining about this any better than those on the Right complaining about offensive or avant-garde artwork/media?

Back on topic, how is complaining about this any better than those on the Right complaining about offensive or avant-garde artwork/media?

I don’t have a problem with people complaining about whatever they want to complain about – it’s a democratic right. What’s amusing is Guido claiming to be some sort a of a libertarian who is fanatical about property rights, while ripping off other people’s images without consent or attribution.

kojak:
Why start this new conversation when you have yet to back up your previous assertion that Melanie Phillips doesn’t care about human rights?
See this: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4604

“Back on topic, how is complaining about this any better than those on the Right complaining about offensive or avant-garde artwork/media?”

It isn’t , which is why the Tory trolls make themselves look like prats when they pretend to be libertarians.

It is freedom for me , but not for thee,. It is the Tory way.

Paul/Guido? That ‘retraction’ that doesn’t really exist but you keep referring to… you are going to clear that myth up while you’re in the mood to clarify a few things, yes?

How about that mythic document you promised to publish months ago and still refer to but haven’t yet produced? You know the one – “the briefing paper done by Downing Street; ‘How to get (Iain) Dale'”:
http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives/2009/04/the_downing_str_2.asp

“What’s amusing is Guido claiming to be some sort a of a libertarian who is fanatical about property rights, while ripping off other people’s images without consent or attribution. ”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_intellectual_property

Sunny,

Thank you for your reply of sorts.

Disaproving of the active involvement of human rights lawyers during the height of warfare is not the same as not caring about human rights. Not the same at all. It might be tempting to ‘bandy around’ such accusations when talking about armed conflict in the middle-east but it tends to blur the discussion.

Unfortunately wars take place – they are the method of dispute resolution of last resort.
Indeed, I can hardly remember when British forces were not participating in one somewhere around the world.
Am I to expect accusations that I don’t care for human rights just because I wish British Forces success in whatever they embark upon? (no, I don’t have Nimrod playing in the background or a picture of Winston Churchill on the wall).

I would be gratefull if you would back up your assertion with some direct evidence / comments.

“Yes get it banned. That is the liberal thing to do…”

As opposed to the “libertarian”* thing to do, which is to laugh at people getting people up by the police at demos because they are lefties, and subsequently believe police accounts of it.

(* – apologies to actual libertarians, who were just as appalled at the police violence)

Again.

Where did Sunny say he wanted it banned? We’re calling them on it, that’s all. We haven’t yet called our friends at the politburo.

Seriously Paul, you’re being a dunce.

Surely we don’t want it banned, we want it withdrawn – by “Geordie” Grieg himself, with a fresh apology to London hard on the heels of his rag’s recently publicised one. And a special apology to his vendors and the family of Ian Tomlinson.

which is to laugh at people getting people up by the police at demos because they are lefties, and subsequently believe police accounts of it.

Oh, you forgot calling for pizza to be sent to the Israeli IDF while they bombed Gaza and denied them basic land rights.

kojak:
Am I to expect accusations that I don’t care for human rights just because I wish British Forces success in whatever they embark upon?

Look, if you can’t really comprehend that point then I’m sorry but I’m not going to have a side debate about Melanie Phillips on this thread.

If someone excuses away the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians by saying military means are “undermined by the queasy neo-pacifism and defeatism of the west expressed through the surrender monkeys of human rights lawyers, NGOs and the media,” then frankly that shows a callous disregard for human rights. Especially when you criticise human rights lawyers.

Has to be said

That logo was a swastika.

Just to say, that the fact they’re advertising using images from the event at which their vendor was killed isn’t that bad.

What’s really bad is the idea that they’re trying to sell themselves as ‘the authorities on breaking news’, using the G20 as an example – given that their coverage of the G20 was truly dire and contained numerous outright lies.

Guido @ 14: I think the idea of ‘banning’ something refers to getting the state to prohibit it. Sunny clearly isn’t calling for that. Expressing entirely justified criticism of an advert with a view to prompting a rethink of whether to use the advert is not an example of trying to ‘ban’ something. If I walk up to someone in the street who is spouting what I regard as religious or political nonsense, and, by some miracle, I persuade them and they stop spouting their ideas, their speech has not been ‘banned’.

Tut. It’s not like Paul Staines to misrepresent , exaggerate or over-dramatise content.

(Paul? Did you want to clear up that ‘retraction’ myth?)

26. Surely we don’t want it banned, we want it withdrawn – by “Geordie” Grieg himself, with a fresh apology to London hard on the heels of his rag’s recently publicised one. And a special apology to his vendors and the family of Ian Tomlinson.

This. Complaining to the ASA is pretty pointless, as I can’t think of a single ad they’ve ever withdrawn due to people finding it offensive; they tend only to act when false or misleading information is displayed. I suppose you could back up an argument that they’re not “the authority on breaking news” with examples from their G20 reporting, but I don’t think it would work.

Complaining directly to the newspaper asking for it to be withdrawn would probably be more effective.

jglitter – you might want to check out the ASA adjudications on their website for examples.

Guido, you freely admit that you’re creating a straw man then?

Guido @ 14 and Stuart White @ 30: darn it, I misread Guido’s comment and got COMPLETELY THE WRONG END OF THE STICK. My comment @ 30 makes the dstinction that Guido was in fact pressing. Well, even Guido can get things right sometimes, I guess….

I pass the poster at London Underground’s Euston Station every night. The British Transport Police disgraced themselves at the G20 and were seen laying into people (they were the ones with BTP on the rear of their bovver jackets). Euston is crawling with BTP and I think standing in front of those posters is a suitable punishment.

Just out of curiosity what does everyone think of the other pictures featured in the ES current ad campaign ie Evening Darling, Evening Prayer etc…….

Whats the problem, let the fuzz smash a few crustees. If the dirty fuckers had jobs there’d be no reason for any police involvement. Leave the posters as they are. Also why dont you lot get lives instead of discuss an advert. Sad people.