I don’t think we should be using the term ‘pro-life’ even in speach marks – it’s conceding ground.

‘Anti-abortionist’ or ‘prohibitionist’ are more accurate terms, even when they aren’t killing people.

Ironic, a recent opinion poll showed that the number of pro-lifers in American outnumbered the pro-choicers for the first time ever and this incident may well reverse that.

There’s never any excuse for murder. Guns should be chucked off the moon. But late abortions are just as bad as murder. Premature babies can and do survive these days, thanks to medical science.

I am saddened but not surprised by the death of Dr Tiller – whenever factions become polarised (by irreconcilable differences) violence often simmers in the background.

Extremists (of one stripe or another) usually resort to killing to signal the intensity of their beliefs, and to intimidate the opposition of course.

Rightly or wrongly some religious adherents are horrified that abortion is not framed as unacceptable in the same way that the murder of Dr Tiller is – in the short term I cannot see any way to get beyond this impasse.

I was just coming here to post this – thanks Laurie. Truly horrific.

Also agree with shatterface, this ‘pro-life’ term is rubbish and useless. We shouldn’t be using it.

Secondly – I wonder if Nadine Dorries MP, who has been trying to tell everyone that pro-choice people are so violent, will say anything about this.

It’s worth emphasizing that Tiller was a devout Lutheran (shot at his own church, in fact) before anyone starts on the ‘all-Christians are terrorists’ guff, which is no more true of them than Muslims or Jews.

Randall Terry, weirdo anti-abortion activist, has said the following:

“George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller’s killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name, murder.”

These people are truely sick.

About two years ago, Tiller admitted to have done approximately 60,000 abortions. 3,000 died on 9/11.

Where is the outrage by the anti-abortionists? This man was America’s version of Dr. Mengele, and he is regarded as a hero in many circles. Good riddance. A monster was removed from earth today and I will not lose sleep over it.

Instead I celebrate the lives that may have been saved from him.

This is the irony of the world we live in, a sad day.

Abortionist Tiller Admits to Performing Abortions the Day Before DeliveryHis Speech at National Education Association

By John-Henry Westen

ARLINGTON, VA, March 19, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Notorious partial-birth abortion specialist Dr. George Tiller of Wichita, KS, was caught on hidden video admitting to aborting babies a day before the mother’s due date. Students for Life of America (SFLA) today released the video which was made at the Feminist Majority Foundation’s annual Women’s Leadership Conference held at the National Education Association (NEA) on March 9.

The video reveals Dr. Tiller showcasing massive and graphic pictures of children with fetal abnormalities that he had aborted, so as to make the case for late-term abortions as necessary medical procedure. SFLA’s Executive Director Kristan Hawkins, who videotaped the conference and interviewed Tiller clandestinely, commented on the gruesome pictures of aborted children Tiller showed, saying, “One had an extra arm: could not that child had survived and received corrective surgery? Was violently killing the child the only way to go?”

“Pro-lifers are regularly condemned for displaying pictures of aborted babies, but here the pro-abortion crowd and the NEA are more than happy to showcase these graphic images, and even gave Dr. Tiller’s presentation a standing ovation,” added Hawkins.

Tiller, who currently faces 19 criminal charges for illegal late-term abortions in the state of Kansas, at first feigned ignorance of the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, a federal bill signed into law in 2002 that protects born children from murder and illegalizes infanticide. However when questioned further about the measure he spoke of his ideological objection to the legislation, saying, “Let’s say you have 15 or 16, you had 1 slip out with a heartbeat; that is not a viable fetus, but that is born alive or has a heartbeat. Then you have to take that non-viable fetus and rush it directly to the hospital against the woman’s wishes.”

Given that the conference featuring Tiller was held at the National Education Association, it is probable that a good number of the more than three million members of the NEA would be voicing opposition if they were made aware of the situation.

“As a pro-life teacher, I can say this illustrates why I am no longer a member of the NEA,” said Marla Mercer, a West Virginia teacher and former member of the National Education Association. “The NEA should not be involved in this issue; here they are hosting this controversial abortionist and his slideshow of babies he has aborted. There is no way any of my money will ever be used to advance the radical pro-abortion agenda of Planned Parenthood and the NEA.”

Full video available online at: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wpr_sN04j_0

About two years ago, Tiller admitted to have done approximately 60,000 abortions. 3,000 died on 9/11.

He probably saved the lives of many, many women by doing that. But clearly the anti-choice nutjobs don’t care

Thank you. There truly is a God of justice. Tiller is dead. We should give the guy who put a cap in his ass a medal.

Boy, typing the word “abortion” onto a blog is a bit like saying “Candyman” five times into a mirror, isn’t it?

Except with swarms of gibbering idiots rather than hook-handed psychos, I mean.

I think the term “pro-life” is actually grimly appropriate here, as it highlights the tragic irony contained in the murderer’s actions.

Exactly. I’m uncomfortable with letting them use the term “pro-life” at the best of times. In these circumstances it is more accurate to describe this man’s killer as “anti-choice”, fanatically so.

The fundamentalist fringes of the anti-choice movement in the States is frustrated that they can’t get their demands through the democratic political system, so some of them resort to terrorism.

I’m trying to find out what effect acts of violence like this have on public opinion on the abortion debate – does anybody know?

And yes, it is depressing how the “”"pro-life”"” freaks come out onto the internet to celebrate a man’s death, but at least it shows their true colours.

If Scott Jones’s post is correct then some of Dr. Tiller’s activities were clearly wrong.

I know Laurie and some others support the mother’s right to abort even the day before delivery – that, to me, is murder.

It is a shame that he could not have been brought to justice.

His murderer, of course, is no hero and must face the fullest penalty.

Dear concerned citizens of the United States of America:

Today we witnessed an end to the death ministry of Dr George Killer (oops, Tiller). Dr. Tiller and Hitler had very much in common; they both waited for the winds-of-change to blow favorably in their direction. Changing Judiciary votes, preying on the amoral mindset of the majority or minority of our population, all contributed to the victimization of hysterical pregnant mothers (over 30,000,000 who became men’s “Pleasure toys”), who later realized they are pregnant.

Dr Tiller and his assassin are both guilty of crimes against humanity, they are both serial killers. One just has more notches on his gun than the other one does! And neither one is a victim, for they both gave their life to an unworthy cause. Dr Tiller no longer has the option to repent, but hopefully his assassin will.

A wanted unborn = A life birthed child
The same, but unwanted unborn = A dead suctioned fetus
What a tragic dichotomy!

Primary solution to the Pro-Life Pro-Choice dilemma:

All of us do wrong and compare ourselves with others;
We are not more righteous* than hysterical pregnant mothers.

And if most women-with-child was loved by the child’s father
She would smile and happily say “No abortion” why bother!

Ask God and the person you mated with to forgive you, forgive yourself and live the abundant life!!!

Sincerely,
Arthur Trafford

Arthur Trafford: you sir are an idiot.

As an American once said “ When Fascism comes to America it will be draped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

The Brownshirts have started killing abortion doctors again just like they did under the last pro choice president Bill Clinton. Whitin 6 months of Clinton taking office they had killed their first doctor and they went on to kill many more. It is 5 months since Obama took office and the killing has started again. Under Bush, anti abortion President they killed no abortion doctors. But they irony is that the numbers of abortions went down substantially under Clinton, and went up substantially under Bush. This is because Bush instigated an anti family planning, anti sex education agenda that despite ploughing hundreds of millions of tax payers money has failed completely. If the anti abortionist were really about stopping abortion they would embrace pro family planning policies. But they are not really anti abortion, they are about stopping woman having sex. Just like the Catholic Church it is all about inadequate men who can’t deal with woman’s sexuality. Once the child has been born they could not give a shit what happens to it. Which is why these same so called pro choice morons have no problem in the poorer areas of America having some of the highest death rates of new born children in the western world.

These people make up the real terrorist that to America. They are the Christian Taliban, white, right wing and armed to the teeth. It does not help that the rhetoric of the right wing pundits has escalated over the last 25 years. When you have people like Ann Coulter saying “we should kill Liberals to intimidate them” you know you are the road to hell.

Slight mistake , I meant pro life mornos.

Hello – there is no proof that this murder was anything to do with pro lifers.

Can u not wait to find out who or what actually happened before bunjeeing to possibly ridiculous conclusions!

“He probably saved the lives of many, many women by doing that. But clearly the anti-choice nutjobs don’t care”

Indeed Sunny, he probably did save the lives of many women.

I dislike the term ‘pro-life’ as these people are not, they don’t give a damn about the life and choices of a living breathing woman. They are anti-abortionists, pure and simple.

Lilliput…

“Hello – there is no proof that this murder was anything to do with pro lifers.

Can u not wait to find out who or what actually happened before bunjeeing to possibly ridiculous conclusions!”

Untrue…

“A 51-year-old suspect in the shooting, named as Scott Roeder, was later arrested and charged with first-degree murder and two charges of aggravated assault, according to the Associated Press. Internet postings showed that someone using the name Scott Roeder had expressed anti-abortion opinions and had singled out Tiller for criticism.”

…and…

“Two abortion opponents who had previously encountered Roeder, 51, said the Merriam, Kan., resident expressed support for their view that lethal force is not a criminal offense if it protects the lives of unborn children.”

I suppose he might be innocent, but the suspect’s actively opposed to abortion. Not sure where Laurie’s got her plural from, though.

Ben

I heard about this from another source and the same person posted a link to the personal stories of people who had been to Kansas for late term abortion. Reading those stories really brings home the naivete of those among us who are anti-abortion because it becomes clear that they want to punish these babies, who have done nothing to deserve a slow, painful march to death in their first years of life.

I am pro life. But that man who shot him wasn’t. Because someone who loves life doesn’t go around shooting people he doesn’t like. I am against abortions. Why we don’t protect unborn? Why can they die? Because they don’t pay taxes yet??? If someone dies comunity is sad. How about so many innocent kids are murdered every day? Look at the story of Samuel Alexander Armas. http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/76.htm

Woopsy do! And here come the links to Bible study websites! Cuckoo land here we come

Are you KIDDING me with the churning out of the Samual Armas story? Seriously? How long ago was that picture’s description debunked, by the surgeon whose fingers actually appear?

I love how people citing that photo as ‘proof’ that foetus are conscious, functioning sentients are quite happy with the assumption that surgery like that can be performed without anaesthesia.

Sunny

He probably saved the lives of many, many women by doing that. But clearly the anti-choice nutjobs don’t care

That’s a straw man argument. Except for possibly an extremely small group, any Pro-Lifers accept that abortion is legitimate if the mothers life is at risk. They don’t however consider depression as justifiable reason for abortion (particularly of viable babies) as George Tiller did.

George Tillers murder is a disgrace, and despite the rush to quote the idiot brigade by the left, all the pro-life groups have condemned it in the most uncoditional terms.

Except for possibly an extremely small group, any Pro-Lifers accept that abortion is legitimate if the mothers life is at risk.

This ‘extremely small group’ includes most of the people creating the Pro-Life rhetoric for the Republican party, which is a new use for the phrase ‘extremely small’ that I’m not familiar with.

Do we need to bring up McCain’s derisive air-quotes again?

It’s understandable that people are shocked and outraged by the cold-blooded murder of Dr George Tiller but I don’t think that’s a reason to tar all, or even most Pro Lifers with the homicidal terrorist brush.

This is a statement from the American Life League:

“Leaders within the pro-life movement often discuss justice in connection with our mission to end the tragedy of abortion. Today, Dr. George Tiller’s life ended in an act defying those principles.

“With genuine sorrow, we reflect on today’s events in prayer. Justice for all human beings includes the lives of those with whom we fundamentally disagree as well as the victims of abortion. We firmly hope the perpetrators of this act are apprehended, that the facts be made known, and that justice according to the law is preserved and dispensed.

“Today’s actions were tragic, and serve as another reminder that all human life is sacred. Pro-lifers by our nature and commitment to human rights reject violence as a means of resistance. Our thoughts and prayers indeed extend to the Tiller family and the community at Reformation Lutheran Church.”

This is one from National Right to Life:

NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE CONDEMNS THE KILLING OF DR. GEORGE TILLER

WASHINGTON – The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC), the nation’s largest pro-life group, today condemned the killing of Dr. George Tiller. The following statement may be attributed to NRLC Executive Director, David N. O’Steen, Ph.D.:

National Right to Life extends its sympathies to Dr. Tiller’s family over this loss of life.

Further, the National Right to Life Committee unequivocally condemns any such acts of violence regardless of motivation. The pro-life movement works to protect the right to life and increase respect for human life. The unlawful use of violence is directly contrary to that goal.

The National Right to Life Committee has always been involved in peaceful, legal activities to protect human lives threatened by abortion, infanticide and euthanasia. We always have and will continue to oppose any form of violence to fight the violence of abortion. NRLC has had a policy of forbidding violence or illegal activity by its staff, directors, officers, affiliated state organizations and chapters. NRLC’s sole purpose is to protect innocent human life.

NRLC will continue to work through educational and legislative activities to ensure the right to life for unborn children, people with disabilities and older people. NRLC will continue to work for peaceful solutions to aid pregnant women and their unborn children. These solutions involve helping women and their children and do not involve violence against anyone.

“I dislike the term ‘pro-life’ as these people are not, they don’t give a damn about the life and choices of a living breathing woman”

Quite right- they are also unbothered by the thought of what actually happens to these unwanted babies once they are born. Has it never crossed these fucking dolts’ minds that someone who doesn’t want a baby, & is forced to give birth nonetheless, might not provide a good upbringing? Abortion is a lot less bad than a woman reliant on benefits, raising a child alone or with wildly inappropriate step-”fathers”, looking forward to a life of welfare dependency at best, crime at worst.

You have only to read the relevant chapter of “Freakonomics” for much more about this &, in particular, the link between legalised abortion & the sudden fall in crime which occured in America in the 90s.

I should imagine that most of us were raised in loving homes where we were cherished & that. But we must not delude ourselves into thinking that everyone is like that… or that it’s a simple, easy matter to casually make up for a lack of maternal love. I myself, if my mother had harboured resentment against me & been unable to rear me properly, would prefer not to have been born. These “I survived Roe v. Wade” fucking clagnuts in America may wish to give some thought to this.

Was there ever a person who enjoyed contemplating abortions? I think not. But it can be the least worst option.

Additionally, there should be much more done to promote safe sex so that conception doesn’t occur at all.

Debi

Would you agree that Sarah Palin reflects “most of the people creating the Pro-Life rhetoric for the Republican party”? She regards the life of the mother as the only justifiable reason for abortion.

As for John McCains “air-quotes”, he used them to denote the very loose interpretation applied by the left as to what constitutes the “health of the mother”. In the left’s defense, the Supreme Court offered a very inadequate definition of health. However, someone who is pro-life would find depression for example as wholly inadequate as a justification for the taking of a life.

For the avoidance of doubt I am not trying to vilify anyone, or suggesting anything about all single parents, merely pointing out the fact that some parents of all varieties can’t cope & should have the choice of abortion once they realise they are pregnant. Because the fact is that in all classes, some parents are good & others are shite. I would not want any child to live with a shite parent or in state “care”.

Yes, I admire Sarah Palin & those like her who have had their children despite difficulties. But they exercised a choice, & for there to be a meaningful choice the alternative has to be available.

asquith

“Has it never crossed these fucking dolts’ minds that someone who doesn’t want a baby, & is forced to give birth nonetheless, might not provide a good upbringing?”

Is adoption an unknown concept to you? Those social service people actually have poorly cared for children as part of their raison d’etre you know. You may not be aware, but one ot the possible consequences of sex is pregnancy. If a person doesn’t want a baby, maybe they should be a little more cautious in how they practice sex.

Abortion is a lot less bad than a woman reliant on benefits, raising a child alone or with wildly inappropriate step-”fathers”, looking forward to a life of welfare dependency at best, crime at worst.

You’re logic suggests that it is impossible to overcome that background, I disagree. Giving everyone the chance to lead a full life, find love, achieve something, mark a mark are a lot lot better than preventing that because of an inconveinience.

asquith

I posted my initial reply before seeing you’re subsequent comment.

But they exercised a choice, & for there to be a meaningful choice the alternative has to be available.

That is actually a fairly compelling argument that is hard to counter. Well played.

Why this need to keep bringing up depression, like it was the only reason Tiller ever used for performing an abortion?

Either he saved lives by performing the abortions for which he was murdered, or he didn’t. If the former, Sunny’s statement isn’t a strawman. If the latter – well, honestly, I don’t think you’ll ever be able to convince me that this assassination was in any way justified.

Are you honestly expecting the defence to be along the lines of “he terminated pregnancies for inadequate reason!” rather than “he was a murderer!”?

What set Tiller apart wasn’t that he was performing abortions for unreasonable motives, it was that he was the very few doctors performing these procedures at all.

I recognise that my first comment comes across as intemperate, which is why I wrote the second. Glad to have got a polite response!

Yes, I live amongst very poor people, & am hardly living a life of luxury myself. I observe that, amongst all forms of poor (single parents, long-term unemployed, asylum seekers) there is a mixture of good & bad. I do not join in the assaults on these people as a whole as there are always reasons for ending up in a state & people who make amazing efforts to fight their way out.

But there are also people who do no such thing & I do not want to have children growing up with them. Yes, a woman should be able to choose adoption, but very often it doesn’t happen & children end up living in “care” homes, which by all accounts is an unpleasant life.

About the concept of abstinence & birth control. There’s no known way of stopping people having sex. I do take your point that there should be more of a culture of personal responsibility, but I see no way of fostering this. I do not sneer at social conservatism, but I think old-school morality isn’t something we should try to emulate because there will always be people who refuse to live by it & bring about bad consequences, just as there were in the old days.

The Sarah Palin comment isn’t an original thought btw! Don’t go thinking too highly of me

What set Tiller apart wasn’t that he was performing abortions for unreasonable motives, it was that he was the very few doctors performing these procedures at all.

Not only that – this isn’t the first time he’d been shot at. And he’d been harassed for years… this is how many of the anti-choice people work hey?

“one of.” “ONE OF” the very few people. And numerous other typoes I didn’t catch.

Debi

I forgot I referenced the D word in my initial post, apologies for being repetitive.

Why would you think I believe his assasination was justified? I absolutely do not. You said that republicans generally are pro-life even when it threatens the life of the mother. That is just plain wrong and that was the only point I was making. I sort of agree with your last point, although I’m sure he did very nicely out of it too, but doesn’t the fact that so few doctors perform late term abortion suggest that there isn’t a medical consensus on the ethical nature of the procedure?

I’m not trying to be confrontational. Whilst I am pro-life (philosophical rather than religious reasons), I can respect the fact that a) I’m not omniscient and therefore fallible and b) I’m a man and therefore not as personsally involved with the issue as a woman is. However, neither factor prevents my position from being reasoned and of good faith.

Some people on here have complained when I use the term brownshirts to describe the Conservative supporting trolls that infest this great site. Yet, if ever there was a thread that proves my point it is this one. To think that so many British Tory supporters support the violent terrorist actions of the American far right is deeply scary. But not at all surprising to those of us who follow the idiocy of the Right wing.

As I have said before this is not about stopping abortion. It is about sex, and the problem most inadequate men have with woman having power over their bodies. When the Fascist right wing starts to support family planning, and sex education I will take seriously their concerns about unwanted pregnancies.

But that will never happen, because as many on the anti abortion right have admitted, banning abortion is just the first step. Once they have got abortion made illegal they then want to ban condoms, and all sex education. These people are obsessed with sex or to put it bluntly, anybody else having sex. They hate the very thought of it. Perverts the lot of them.

You’re not exactly helping matters, Sally.

There’s no indication that the fuckwits above are Tories, & in fact they probably don’t live in this country at all.

The likes of Conservative Cabbie have provided reasonable arguments, especially when you consider that this is a heated topic which makes even the best of us lose our rags. I myself actually toned down my comments to be as polite as possible, but such are the feelings aroused by the topic that they are still fairly fucking stark, which there’s no avoiding.

Your assaults are starting to get quite tedious now, as is your failure to read what anyone actually rights.

I have explained in this very thread my pro-choice credentials. I am no one’s idea of a Tory. But I still consider you to be a fuckwit. I suspect quite strongly that you’re not a real person & you’re some fucker using a sockpuppet & laughing after every post. If so- you might like to try a change of tack to keep it vaguely interesting or you’ll bore yourself as well as everyone else.

“the fuckwits” such as Arthur Trafford, etc.

Also wrote “rights” instead of “writes”. Have to go & punch myself in the face now.

Asquith – one point you raise in defence of the woman’s right to have an abortion always troubles me.

Quite right- they are also unbothered by the thought of what actually happens to these unwanted babies once they are born. Has it never crossed these fucking dolts’ minds that someone who doesn’t want a baby, & is forced to give birth nonetheless, might not provide a good upbringing

So…it’s better for the baby for it to be killed? I’m in that rather uncomfortable state of being personally anti-abortion, while also being in favour of its legality, which tends to mean that I find both sides arguments either unconvincing or loopy…

asquith

When brownshirts start going around gunning people down in a democracy I for one don’t give a flying shit if you think I am being too aggressive. You can’t appease people who want to kill you. and you make the mistake that too many Democrats have been making in America for the last 25 years. IE. trying to be nice and listen to all sides from people who are knuckle dragging murdering scum.

If those are the people you want to defend well fine, but you are then a fool of the first order. Nothing worse than concern trolls like you.. People who attack other Liberals because they tell it as it is. When the murdering scum start the same tactics here and start shooting British doctors no doubt you will write a mealy mouthed piece of rubbish saying “on the one hand this …but on the other hand that.”

Go play with your ivory tower.

To think that so many British Tory supporters support the violent terrorist actions of the American far right is deeply scary

I think Asquith’s point is that, judging by this thread, there are no British Tories supporting this murder, and that suggesting that there are makes you ridiculous.

If men could have kids, abortion would be legal in a heartbeat. There is no way they would allow anyone to control their bodies. Which what this really about. Insecure, controlling men who hate the idea of woman controlling their own bodies and their sexuality.

By the way, the last abortion Dr to be killed was carried out by a man called Mr Rudolph.

Rudolph was arrested in Murphy, North Carolina, on May 31, 2003
Yesterday was the anniversary of that arrest.

Many of those who advocate adoption as an alternative to abortion would be the first to throw hissy-fits if the prospective adopters were of the same sex.

Do you have children Sally?

Shatterface

Many of those who advocate adoption as an alternative to abortion would be the first to throw hissy-fits if the prospective adopters were of the same sex.

Not I. Just as with gay marriage, conservatives should welcome those that actively seek a life that revolves around commitment and family. For me, those are two of the most fundamental conservative values.

Conservative Cabbie – absolutely! I’m with PJ O’Rourke on this one:

I am a little to the right of … Why is the Attila comparison used? Fifth-century Hunnish depredations on the Roman Empire were the work of an overpowerful executive pursuing a policy of economic redistribution in an atmosphere of permissive social mores. I am a little to the right of Rush Limbaugh. I’m so conservative that I approve of San Francisco City Hall marriages, adoption by same-sex couples, and New Hampshire’s recently ordained Episcopal bishop. Gays want to get married, have children, and go to church. Next they’ll be advocating school vouchers, boycotting HBO, and voting Republican.

Jesus stated “He without sin among you let him cast the first stone at her.” Some religious still stone raped women & own women. Who should own them as a slave? Exodus describes no penalty for women who choose to terminate pregnancy, nor does any Bible verse.

Medically, a fetus becomes a baby at its first breath. Then, siblings recognize it & it’s named, christened, given citizenship, & celebrates zero. Unless you’re a surrogate, the only way to give rights to unborn is to take away women’s.

Check out the extremism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/01/george-tiller-abortion-doctor-murder

breath to breath

Medically, a fetus becomes a baby at its first breath.

Then you would happily accept unfettered Mengele like experimentation on the unborn fetus so long as the mother consents. That is the logical extreme of the life (and rights) begins at birth argument. If that thought makes you recoil, you may want to consider why.

Biblically there’s a strong argument that life begins at first breath, too. (Don’t expect that to matter to most people here, but just thought I’d throw that in there.)

CC, if Sally hadn’t already done it, you’ve definitely just Godwinned this thread. Mengele was a Nazi “doctor” who performed experiments on people of all ages. Besides, how many women are going to consent (except perhaps through economic necessity, which is hardly consent) to have personally invasive experimentation done on them?

A better description for the so called pro-life people would be pro-coat hanger. Because that is what will be the consequence of their banning abortion. Of course, not for the rich who will fly their daughters and gilfriends down to South America or other places that will carry out an abortion just like thy did in the 1950’s.

As a Conservative Republican politician Barry Goldwater, who had a bit more sense on this issue than the religious fundamentalist , inadequate , woman hating right wing said many years ago.. “woman have been aborting from the beginning of time …..and they will be aborting till the end of time.”

tim f

Ok, fair enough. I’d never heard of Godwins Law. A lesson learnt. I only used him as an extreme (for effect) example of the anything goes logic of the life at birth position

…this is how many of the anti-choice people work hey?

A better description for the so called pro-life people would be pro-coat hanger.

We hear variations on a theme of these fatuous arguments every time the topic of abortion comes up. They’re on a par with arguing that most of those who are a vegan for ethical reasons are equivalent to fanatics who send scientists letter bombs or penal reformers are pro-crime.

I’m pro-choice and I recognize that even late abortions might be necessary (even euthenasia in some circumstances: see below) but I’m uncomfortable with the idea that a fetus becomes human when it takes it’s first breath.

Frankly, I find that mystical.

Many children have breathing dificulties at birth but that does not make them any less human. What if a premature child is intubated until it is developed enough to breath on it’s own – is this child not human?

There may be instances where a child – even when it has been born – has no chance of survival and to prolong it’s life is simply to prolong it’s suffering: in this case it might be more humane to allow the child to die. That’s a tragedy for the parents but also to the child itself.

Opposition to the anti-abortionists shouldn’t lead us to the opposite extreme of imagining that a child can only feel if it is capable of crying.

Sally

“These people make up the real terrorist that to America. They are the Christian Taliban, white, right wing and armed to the teeth.”

I really think you blow your own credibility out of the water when you write lies like this.

How many people in the USA have been killed in the last 10 years by the “Christian Taliban”

And how many by Islamic terrorists? – plus the many bomb plots that have been foiled in the USA.

You are so far from reality…. I’m wondering if it’s even worth responding to you…you appear to hate christians / whites / right wingers with such an irrational zeal

Folks

one murder is bad, very bad and deserve 100% condemnation.

But let’s get some perspective also, how many women are killed a year in North America in honour killings by their own families?

From May 31st – Canada – here’s one of many:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/05/31/9630106-sun.html

I reject the term pro life, seeing as most of them are pro death penalty, pro illegal war, pro torture.

Baring in mind they could not give a shit about the health of the infant once the fetes has come out of the womb. You won’t hear them complain about infant mortality rates in poorer parts of America, because the life of the baby is less important than their more important obsession controlling the woman’s right to control her own anatomy.

Oh and sex. They just hate the idea of people having sex.

Ok Sally – so you’re concerned about women’s rights.

How do you view what the ‘moderate’ _Islamic Centre of Luton_ write about women under Islam?
http://calltoislam.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=313&Itemid=78

I know it takes you away from your usual Christian / white / right-wing bashing – but I’m sure you have a view on this too

Why only go back ten years?

Crusades?

Inquisition?

Jewish pogroms?

Millions.

McVeigh. Killed 168.

From NYT:

“Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., whom authorities have described as a suspect in Sunday’s fatal shooting here of George Tiller, was once a subscriber and occasional contributor to a newsletter, Prayer and Action News, said Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines who runs the newsletter. Mr. Leach said that he had met Mr. Roeder once, and that Mr. Roeder had described similar views to his own on abortion.

Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this.”

Yes, and some other woman-hating fucks found lines in the Koran that they thought supported flying airplanes into buildings. And they, like the christian right wing are terrorists.

I find it truly worrying that a large proportion of the USA citizenry support the actions of these terrorists without even the vaguest notion that those who they themselves term terrorists justify murder and oppression by reference to exactly the same God.

Religion can offer an opportunity for reflection, philosophical discourse and debate, but only when the views of all others are respected. Of course there is no substitute for pure philosophy but i can’t see our masters putting that back on the school curriculum any time soon, can’t have the people learning to think can we now?

These freaks just don’t get it.

I reject the term pro life, seeing as most of them are pro death penalty, pro illegal war, pro torture.

Clearly Sally has never heard of the Seamless Garment or Consistent Life Ethic wing of the Pro Life movement. Seamless Garmenters oppose war, nuclear weapons and capital punishment as much as abortion as contrary to human dignity.

Oh and sex. They just hate the idea of people having sex.
They do? News to me. Contrariwise, I suppose there are people who really get off on the idea of other people having sex. Oh well, whatever floats their boat.

Anti abortionists have made it clear that banning abortion is just the start., then they want to ban Condoms and all sex education. It is not about the un born baby it is about the sex.

They hate woman having sex and being able to control their bodies. It is a religious thing. After all, most Christian fundamentalists still blame Eve for all the sin in the world.

Anti abortionists have made it clear that banning abortion is just the start.

Really, where?

…then they want to ban Condoms and all sex education.

I’m not aware of any British Pro Life group which wants to ban condoms or sex education. They critique sex-education based around birth-control, pointing out that it is singularly ineffective at reducing abortion rates, which is probably what you were thinking of when you asserted that they want to ban condoms and sex-education. But criticising and pointing out the ineffectiveness of something is rather different to demanding that it be banned.

It is not about the un born baby it is about the sex.</i?

Writing as a Pro Lifer I can tell you that you’re wrong. So long as it’s between consenting adults how people choose to conduct their erotic lives is none of my interest or concern.

“Really, where?”

Well that just shows how ill-informed you are about the America Christian Taliban.

Also, I think you will find that the Catholic Church here and America and all over the world are against condoms and would like them banned. They also do not like sex education in schools.

But thanks for playing.

This thread is rather unfair to the Taliban. Despite their nutjob religious ideas they were and are first rate patriots intent on defeating Anglo-US imperialism.

The dips**t liberals here also miss the point concerning democratic rights in the USA. Had more decent citizens exercised their democratic rights to carry firearms Dr Tiller might still be alive.

Sally,

I freely admit to being ignorant about this mysterious organisation you call the American Christian Taliban and in an effort to remedy this I did the obvious thing and googled the term. No organisation of that name appeared.

The Catholic Church opposes condoms and birth-control based sex-education but has not called for them to be banned. Yet again you are mixing up opposition with campaigns for prohibition.

It would be a lot more fun playing with you, so to speak, if you upped your game.

“The Catholic Church opposes condoms and birth-control based sex-education but has not called for them to be banned. Yet again you are mixing up opposition with campaigns for prohibition.”

No point till they have got abortion banned.

And the Catholic Church has a great record on matters of sex and looking after all those little boys in its care.

I am sorry but you are totally ignorant of the anti abortionist movement in the USA. The fact that you are not aware of their anti sex education, and anti family planning makes it pointless debating you.

I suppose we should be thankful you have not started killing doctors here in the UK. So thanks for that. Only a matter of time I guess.

Sally,

I know a lot more about the Pro Life movement that you do, not least because I’m part of it.

You on the other hand have displayed a startling inabiltiy to engage in rational argument. Your comments about the Catholic Church were of a piece with your invention of something you called the American Christian Taliban; childish bigotry.

Sally – why do you refuse to comment above on an issue with huge issues for women – what mainstream Islam says about them.

Your failure to do so, suggests that your hatred for christians / whites /right-wingers and is greater than your concern for the welfare of women in general.

Bottom line; Tiller was a killer. You live by the “sword” you die by the “sword.”

I have no sympathy for money grubbing doctors acting like they are doing something good for people (women) but they are no better than a televagelist ripping off widows and orphans for their last cent!

You “Pro choice/death” people are such hypocrites – never seeing the forest because of the tree of your selfishness. Why don’t you shed a tear for the children torn to shreds by this man’s seared conscience.

And why don’t you ‘shed a tear’ for women forced to carry ‘catastrophic’ pregnancies to term. Where either her life is at risk or the fetus is so profoundly deformed that it would not live anyway? All third trimester abortions are carried out for very good reason, not as a whim that came to her one morning whilst she ate her cornflakes. When was the last time you were pregnant? When was the last time you were pregnant and forced to carry for a further fifteen weeks a fetus with no capability to survive outside of YOUR uterus? Something you are missing here – women are human too, in case it alludes you… The Forced Pregnancy Squad. Maybe you’d like to set up some ‘camps’ just to make sure that women can be tortured more thoroughly with pregnancy complications/ nonviable/ dead/ deformed baby bearing to serve your vile, twisted woman hatred in honour of your sky fairy.

Anna’s right: abortion isn’t just a life style choice and a woman who has carried a child to it’s third trimester does not take the choice to abort lightly.

Tiller was no ‘murderer’, just someone carrying out an unpleasant necessity to the best of his abilities.

“A better description for the so called pro-life people would be pro-coat hanger.”

Hey! That was my line from months ago! I even made an image for it.

Why was President Clinton so bad at protecting the lives of abortionists?

Why was President Bush so good at it?

Why is President Obama so bad at it?

see the answer at kneelingcatholic.blogspot.com

So basically what Kneeling Catholic is saying, is that the murder of doctors is entirely the fault of the governing administration for refusing to give in to terrorism.

I wonder if they’d apply the same ‘logic’ to partisanship and Islamic terrorism.

Also, that post completely misunderstands Buddhism, but I’m hardly surprised.

Dear friend
Respectfully, one mentally disturbed man appears to have killer Mr Tiller not ‘pro-life’ terrorists”.

Partial poem from ArthurTrafford.com
The Thoughts of the Unborn POEM

No one is righteous before our dear Savior, Our thoughts are wrong including our behavior

Because of everything we do or say, That only leaves us one option—to pray

Dear God because I am guilty of not doing right,I ask you to save me today or tonight

Only Jesus can save me from my sin, I think of the unborn and wish I had let life begin

I am crushed and heart broken, No comfort my soul has ever been spoken

The blood of Jesus is all that can cleanse me, I want to do what is right and please God within me

All wrongs have equal weight on God’s judgment scale, Even stealing a pencil can send us to hell

All of us do wrong and compare ourselves with others, We are not more righteous* than hysterical pregnant mothers

And if most women-with-child was loved by the child’s father, She would smile and happily say “No abortion” why bother

You have hidden or damaged emotions buried in a sea of pain
Release them and you have everything to gain
Ask God and the person you mated with to forgive you
Forgive yourself and live the abundant life.

*Romans 3:10,12

© 2008 Arthur Trafford.com OR

Maria,

Scott Roeder is fiercely anti-choice*; he has a long history in the anti-choice community of posting on boards and threatening violence against doctors who perform abortions, where he was encouraged and supported.

Since the murder, anti-choice frontmen and bloggers have been implicitly and explicitly endorsing the act, calling it ‘justice’, refusing to call it murder, and like a few of the commenters here, saying that Tiller had it coming. Jill Stanek of Operation Rescue, published photographs of the clinic of another doctor who’d indicated he was willing to take Tiller’s place, because she and her readers ‘wanted to take a look’.

If this was really a one-off act by an ill man, perhaps you can explain why Tiller had to wear a bullet proof vest to work, why the clinic was reinforced and bomb-proof, and why doctors like Warren Hern are so afraid for their lives that they can’t sit by an open window.

There seem to be a lot of “one mentally disturbed [men]“, and they have the support of a remarkable number of people calling themselves ‘pro-life’, working to create an environment of fear and hatred aginst the people they choose to persecute.

That’s terrorism.

*I use that term rather than ‘pro-life’ out of respect for people who are “pro-lie but think abortion should be legal”, which is actually the position of many pro-choicers.

It’s not just the work of one sick man. It’s the work of one sick man deliberately whipped into a frenzy by a propaganda machine designed to whip him into a frenzy.

If you will notice these killings only happen when there is a democrat in the white house, that is because the republican party does not keep the nuts fired up if a republican is in the white house.

They know they can get the nuts to vote republican based only on abortion, and they want control of congress back so what the hey if it causes Dr.s who provide abortion to be killed and injured and stalked?

When it is 6000 for a late term abortion or a few hundred thousand for neo natal ICU and you are not insured, what are you going to do if you are pregnant with a deformed fetus? No one wants to talk about that, because the party that is most against healthcare is also most against late term abortion for situations with a deformed fetus.

Carol

When it is 6000 for a late term abortion or a few hundred thousand for neo natal ICU and you are not insured, what are you going to do if you are pregnant with a deformed fetus? No one wants to talk about that, because the party that is most against healthcare is also most against late term abortion for situations with a deformed fetus.

Ok, your point on healthcare costs and GOP opposition to public healthcare has some validity, but cost-analysis should not be a justification for abortion. Fine, have the debate on supporting mothers with deformed foetus’, but we shouldn’t be seeking to end a potentially productive life for financial reasons.

Dear Debbie, dear Carol,
Thank you for answering, passionately and constructively. I am not an American, but I do have pro-life friends there. They are good and gentle people; they obstruct no ones access, and shout at no one. They read the psalms or say the rosary and carry a small, handwritten card which says: ‘Dear friend, if you are in difficulties or are being pressured into your choice, or simply need somewhere to live while you carry your child to term, we will willingly help you. May God bless you.”

Often our friends have given a room in their own house to a women in difficulty and supported her out of their own slender means and helped to find an adoption agency for the child. Never the less, for doing no more that this, they have sometimes found them selves in court.

It has been an educational eye opener to me, that pro-choicers, fear taking on the pro-lifers more than they fear taking on the police.

I am a sincere Catholic, but I do want to help the Church I love to find a way of expressing its support for life without inciting its weaker-minded members to murder.

This is an honest offer. How would you express respect for that particular freedom of conscience, without inciting a destructive response?

lovingly and humbly,
Maria

Maria,

I’m not sure I understand your comment; are you saying you feel unable to draw a line between your friends’ actions and the rhetoric of hate that fuel people like Scott Roeder?

I will say though, that the pro-choice position is about choice, free from coercion from either side. I’m well aware that there are people who pressure women into abortions, but that is not at the core of the pro-choice movement, and Dr. Tiller by all accounts, did refuse to operate on women if they were being coerced into the procedure.

I bring this up because I think it’s laudable and compassionate to offer support to women who choose to keep their child, and to shield them from pressure to abort, but that is a pro-choice action, unless there is also coercion intended to pressure a woman into an unwanted, unhealthy or inviable pregnancy.

It has been an educational eye opener to me, that pro-choicers, fear taking on the pro-lifers more than they fear taking on the police.

Pro-choicers don’t need to take on the police, at least not in the USA, where the freedom of a woman to make that choice; (either choice) is protected by law.

Unless the ‘they’ in the second half of that statement is referring to the anti-choicers who break federal law by pouring superglue into the locks of abortion clinics, obstruct access to womens clinics and harass health workers?

This is an honest offer. How would you express respect for that particular freedom of conscience, without inciting a destructive response?

I may be the wrong person to ask, here; I follow a religious path that includes the idea that teachings shouldn’t be given unless asked for, so I’m hardly in a place to be giving advice on how to propagate religious teachings. And for similar reasons, I really cannot give advice on how to coerce women into making a decision that is not their own.

I am not sure any of you understand the mind frame of the prolife individual. Pretend for a moment you believed that the unborn baby is alive. The sanctioning of what you consider murder by the government is one step away from China’s forced abortions under the one child rule. To them the doctor performing these procedures is no different than if the fetuses where 2 year olds. How long would you let your neighbor murder children before you felt “right with the lord” enough to kill them – even at the cost of your freedom and possibly your life? Call me a savage hate monger, but it would take me the blink of an eye.

I do not support this act and it is not the way the pro-life movement wants to be precieved, but I do understand the seriousness of this issue. I don’t refuse to listen to either side. I think I can understand it.

If you want true conversation with your fellow Americans try to understand both sides of an arguement. Do not fear changing your mind, rather yearn for clarity.

If a firm belief in perserving freedom is what drives you to the pro-choice movement. One could easily argue that by transfering power from the state level to the federal level, as Roe V Wade did, the individuals voice becomes smaller. Rather than the states being Laboratories of Democracy as our founders inteaded more decisions are being made at national centralized level, the furthest possible from the individual.

The federal politicians squeeze this issue for all it has, but rarely present the real arguments in this debate. Don’t take the bait. Sometime we all act live piranhas and jump at the red meat. Seek the truth. The true hypicrits are the ones that preach against hate, but refuse to listen to the other side.

Some people who support abortion were fooled by the pro abortion fallacy that a fertilized egg is not a child…. nor is an undifferentiated mass of cells but this is a lie. If not a child what ? Each one of us reading and submitting comments were once a tiny collection of cells in a womb. Are we not glad we were allowed to live?
I pray for the Tiller family ;it is awful to lose a loved one through an act of violence and I also pray for Scott Roeder who sadly like Dr Tiller resorted to violence as a solution Abortion is never a solution for anyone It is always a death sentence for the baby and a life sentence for the poor mother A deliberate decision to abort goes totally against the natural instincts of a woman to nurture and protect and it is very damaging to the body heart and mind of any poor soul who endures such an experience.If we really care about women’s health we can neither condone allow or encourage abortion.There are some things in life which are simply wrong Both slavery and abortion treat a human being as if it is a disposable asset. The child in the womb is not the property of the mother nor is it the property of the father It is a new citizen with rights that should be upheld and respected in Law. “

It doesn’t matter what people thought of Dr. Tiller, whether they
liked him, if they thought he was nice, the fact that he was killed in
a church–none of that matters. What matters is God’s judgment. If you
still think, that after reading the Bible, that Tiller is excused from his
sins because of how much money he gave to the church or the fact that
he was kind to the mother and killed the child, please reread it.
Jesus expressly said, Let the children come to me. He did not say,
throw dead children at me.