You have a duty to cast a ballot. Even if your ballot is blank.

If you don’t use it, then you loose your right to complain.

Is that true, Owain? Tell me, where in whatever it is that grants us the right to complain about things, is it written “but only if we vote”?

For the record, I did vote, but I sure as Hell didn’t do so in order out of fear I’d somehow lose the ‘right’ to talk politics.

Dammit, I’d like to apologise for spelling your name wrong.

If you don’t use it, then you loose your right to complain.

That’s not true, democray is not just or mainly about picking overlords to rule us. Chris Dillow contributes, he writes, he blogs, he is a member of society who interacts with others. By not voting he is expressing a preference that is totally legitimate, and it does not mean “he can’t complain.” That’s just propaganda.

Although I still think you should vote, the BNP are scum. As a tactic how about, voting for the next likeliest party and then send them a letter telling them you think their crap and not to get ideas above their station… You still might get hit by a car though.

“Although I still think you should vote, the BNP are scum. As a tactic how about, voting for the next likeliest party and then send them a letter telling them you think their crap and not to get ideas above their station… You still might get hit by a car though.”

Crap… for the record: comma in the wrong place; and i know it is “they’re.”

Some parts of the libertarian left have a long tradition of principled abstention from voting in parliamentary elections because even universal suffrage is an abdication of personal responsibility – but if you do not wish to vote simply because you don’t think you can decide on the issues, that’s also your right: you don’t need to justify yourself.

Me, sadly it’s the LibDems: even anarchists can recognize the virtue of voting AGAINST the BNP.

I’ll be wearing slippers and a cardigan next.

What a cynical way to think about elections. You have every right not to vote, and you won’t hear me urging you to go out and do so, but some of your comments are somewhat worrying.

You expect the political parties to tell you what good an MEP is, or about EU affairs? Given their obvious bias they would not be the best source of info even if they were providing it. As reasonable people we must all do our duty and look into these things as best we can. Read other European news sources for alternative views of EU issues (Der Spiegel for instance), check up on the latest policy initiatives or just read other well informed bloggers. Never trust a candidate or a party to tell you honestly what the EU does or how it works!

Go out and speak to some MEPs and candidates next time for inspiration on who to vote for. I have to say that after hearing Caroline Lucas speak my vote for the Green party in 2005 was assured as I felt her to be an extremely competent speaker who would certainly be a good representative for my area at the time.

If this sounds like too much effort, then perhaps one might reconsider writing about politics. If you’re not enthused enough to care about the political arena, then you’ve allowed despair to overtake hope and the dark cynicism that seems to come out of every part of our culture at the moment to erode your optimism in the future.

Chris, of course BNP MEPs won’t have any power. But it does matter that they should win as few seats as possible, because every one they win grants them legitimacy.

At the moment they can send out a press release to, say BBC Radio Merseyside, and that worthy body can use it for bog paper. Once Griffin is elected, however, he has to be given as much airtime as any other MEP from the region. The BNP will be able to demand attention and mostly our craven media will give it to them. Their supporters will be more likely to get their letters published in local papers, for example. And this is before they get to use the 2 million Euros of public money (i.e. your taxes and mine) to promote their cause, including – who can tell – hiring hotshot lawyers to defend their more tattoo’d members against charges of GBH etc against liberals and social democrats…

“And the trouble with voting is that it’s an all-or-nothing preference.”

I think this is where I start to disagree. The point of voting is to choose the bunch of people that you agree the most with, it’s ridiculous to expect them to agree with everything you think. I find it hard to believe that anyone has no preference what-so-ever between the parties.

Most importantly though, voting is only one stage of our democratic process. You put the best of a bad bunch into power and then nag them like crazy to do what you want. You don’t want to be nagging people from UKIP, I’ve tried, they don’t care about anything.

But it all starts with voting…

#2: “Is that true, Owain? Tell me, where in whatever it is that grants us the right to complain about things, is it written “but only if we vote”?”

Clearly, if you take the point at face value, you are correct. There is no law which forbids criticism by those who have failed to vote, nor any differentiation for any government service on the basis of voting. Therefore, your rights (to complain, argue, criticize etc.) remain unaffected.

However, that is a rather narrow interpretation. However much we might write on blogs; for the vast majority of us, the greatest input we have into the democratic system we live under is through the ballot box. It is not that the neglect of voting denies you the “right” to complain, but it denies your complaint a degree of credibility. If you cannot be bothered to vote; why should anyone value your input into the process at a later stage? If you won’t educate yourself about the issues at stake in an election; would it be illogical to assume that your writings on the internet and elsewhere will be similarly ignorant of important issues?

As for “my vote won’t change the outcome”, please yourself. But I’m curious whether such a view can be reasonably held, without falling down the logical hole of more general nihilism. “My [X,Y,Z] won’t change the world, so [X,Y,Z] are inherently pointless” is certainly one worldview, but not (in my opinion) a particularly strong one.

If you aren’t wildly enamored with any political party, pick the one which least irritates you. If every party occupies an ideological position so distant from your own as to make any vote an unbearable violation of your principles, start your own party.

If the BNP get seats, they will qualify for European Parliament funding. The prospect of them having access to public funds to help them spread their message is reason enough to go out and vote for someone, even if you don’t endorse everything they stand for.

CD: “I can’t express a pure anti-BNP preference at the ballot box. I have to support some party. And they will misconstrue such support as a positive endorsement.”

In a multi-member seat, a tactical vote against the BNP in the EU election would be for the party who might gain the least number of votes that allow them to win a single seat. In extremis, a tactical vote for the Tories might deliver a third seat to them, but the BNP are losers anyway in such seats(§). Winning the last seat in a region is not a ringing endorsement for any party.

All “anti” votes are misrepresented by the recipients, whether the votes are to block a particular candidate, are traditional protest votes against an incumbent or are a tactical vote to remove one. Realistic campaigners may try to use those votes to demonstrate popularity, but they know that they have to do something more next time around to retain them. The Lib Dems have been a big beneficiary of third party squeeze in FPTP elections, but they have also seen tactical votes revert to Labour and Conservative after winning a seat. UKIP win protest votes at EU elections but struggle to score double figures in their strongest regions at any other type of election.

The polling station is still open, Chris.

§: I am ready to eat my hat on Monday when the results are announced.

Some voters have trouble locating UKIP entry on their ballot paper, due to the way the papers have been folded by some of the machines that printed them. Seem to struggle with concept of unfolding paper fully, or just asking those manning the station if they’re unsure. Nigel Farage’s verdict? “It’s a Mugabe style election”.

http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/1121-ukip-call-for-head-of-minister-for-justice

Does he have the slightest understanding what he is actually saying there?

Chris Dillow: “Many good people are urging me to vote today. But I can’t feel motivated to do so. For one thing, I know very little about European issues.”

That’s not really the point. Most voters know little of waste recycling policy, or the ins and outs of child protection, but you still vote in national elections for a party who (if they win) will appoint someone to oversee these things.

The fact is the EU does have power, and makes important decisions affecting the UK. I can’t recite the details of those decisions, or begin to guess what the key debates might be that will face the next EU parliament. But I do want someone who agrees with me on basic fundamental principles (and is not a power-crazed crook) to be involved in making those decisions – so I voted Green.

Kentron: “However much we might write on blogs; for the vast majority of us, the greatest input we have into the democratic system we live under is through the ballot box. It is not that the neglect of voting denies you the “right” to complain, but it denies your complaint a degree of credibility. If you cannot be bothered to vote; why should anyone value your input into the process at a later stage?”

I’m generally cynical that blogs achieve anything other than talking to the converted and arguing with the unconvertible. But even during this election, we have seen the mainstream media pick up on ideas or discoveries from bloggers. Most notable was the revelation that the BNP used stock photos to illustrate typical supporters on the colour leaflet that appears to have been sent to many UK homes.

For those of us who don’t own an influential blog, our contribution to democracy is not limited to the ballot box or door knocking (has anyone had a canvasser for the EU elections where there is no local election?) or posting leaflets. You are more likely to switch your vote as a result of conversation with a friend than with a stranger on the doorstep.

So I tend to think that you contribute more to the democratic process if you engage in ideas — on a blog, in conversation down the pub, posting political graffiti on a toilet wall — than if you just vote.

Charlieman: Of course blogs have value. After all, if I believed otherwise, I wouldn’t be here

My point was that for most of us, our greatest single political action is to vote. The Huffington Post, DailyKos etc. have done much to reshape the American political landscape in the last decade, but we currently see Mr. Obama in the White House rather than Mr. McCain because more people bothered to go to the ballot box and choose the former as their leader. Whatever the current cynicism or outright hostility, I still see the value of voting; doubly so for those who consider themselves interested in politics.

I wont be voting.

I got to the polling station to be told I was on the postal vote list.

I can’t find the letter. Probably been shredded by now. I’ve been democratically disenfranchised by an unholy affair between my Commie wife and her Staples electric shredder. (

Comrade, Communism equals Soviet Power plus electrified shredder!

In elections where I feel like abstaining, I happily draw a “RON” box on the paper… that way I won’t be counted among the feckless lazy buggers who seem to be trying to justify it to themselves as much as anyone else when they post stuff like this…

(voted Lib Dem today, obvs).

I wish there was a “No.” option I could vote for.

In Soviet Russia, vote shreds you!

Many people that don’t vote seem to be saying “I would, but I’m better than the available options, and none of them deserve me as a supporter”.

My view is that not voting is a cop-out and lazy.

And if they aren’t making the effort to campaign, why should I make the effort to vote?

What a bunch of elitist, head-in-the-sand bollocks. If you can’t be arsed to find out where any of the parties stand on Europe, what their policies are, and who you most agree with, then fuck you. The more people don’t care about the issues enough to vote, the less effort they will make in campaigning on them.

Why do you bother to blog? You have nothing to say, no opinions, and it seems you never leave your bedroom. If you can’t be bothered to vote, you forfeit the right to comment.

You could try informing yourself, instead of sitting back and expecting to be informed about a reange of controversial issues by people acting in their own interest.

“If you can’t be bothered to vote, you forfeit the right to comment.”

I didn’t vote on Britain’s Got Talent but I still think Diversity were awesome and 2 Grand were cheesy … or have I forfeited the right to that opinion. And at least a vote on BGT will influence something, unlike the sham façade of democracy that is the European Parliament.

This indolent, half arsed, whinging attitude really get on my nerves! Have a rethink mate and sort it out.

As someone whose knowledge of politics isn’t great in comparison to the posters on this site, but someone who does take an interest – I too felt a little disenfranchised with the level of campaigning I was exposed to. I spent most of the week thinking that I should really research my decision, but ended up leaving it till late the night before.

In a general election I’d vote Labour. But regarding Europe, Labours semi backtrack on the Lisbon referendum discourages me from supporting them in the EU elections. Perhaps there is no logic in that and I’m cutting of my nose despite my face as it were.

I couldn’t bring myself to vote Conservative, in some ways I appreciate UKIP sentiment, but I don’t feel passionately about immigration, and while my opinion of them has gone up somewhat since Farage took the helm, there is a certain hint of nationalism that I just can’t get down with. Lib dems seem just a bit too keen on the EU in general.

I ended up voting Libertas, which was probably a wasted vote but I generally feel a lack of engagement with EU politics and democratic reform seemed quite appealing when I made my last minute decision.

Its not so much if you don’t vote you loose the right to complain as we all gain the right to think you’re a f**king muppet.

Well if you think your opinion is worthless then, (clicks unsubscribe), neither do I.

By not voting you let other people make decisions for you, and let them elect somebody you might not like.

Afterwards you can moan and complain as much as you like, but they’ll be empty words if you couldn’t be bothered to spend a few minutes of your life a) finding out what their views are and b) choosing the one you like best, or choosing the one you dislike least.

As for “I know very little about European issues” – why don’t you know much? You’ve got the internet, so everything should be there for you to read, if you could be bothered to look.

I am appalled by this literally indecent comment. Millions of young men (and quite a few young women) have died to give you the privilege of laziness. You even have the nerve to brag about it. It takes a few clicks of your mouse to find out more and to get informed – a hundred times easier than it was just 10 years ago, and yet you couldn’t be bothered. Think of all those Commonwealth, Empire, Dominion members of the armed forces who believed in British democracy. If you had a neck (let alone a spine) you should hang your head in shame.

another such view:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/what-voting-signals.html

(also posted at S&M)

Chris,

If your problem is who to vote for, then you should go out and write “none of the above” on the ballot.

Chris
I understand your reasons but call me an old fashioned fuddy duddy, but you are wrong.
The press ( to man or woman, are disgusting parts of the Thatcherite right) have created a situation in which politics has become a dirty word.
They want to create apathy so a thatcheite government will be elected.
Sorry but this is the time to vote.
Anyway vote for negative reasons.
My wife and I voted Labour beacuse Nick Cohen and Martin Bright voted Tory.
Nothing like canceling out a vote.

Chris – hope you’re proud of your non-vote. The BNP got in. They weren’t in your region but it’s people like you who let them in.

My not voting doesn’t affect the share of the electorate that votes for the BNP. It only affects the share of the turn-out it gets. The fact that the latter, not the former, translates into seats is a defect of our electoral system.

It would certainly be entertaining if seats were assigned as a function of share of *electorate* since that would mean a large number of empty seats!

(Though the effective end result would be identical.)

“My not voting doesn’t affect the share of the electorate that votes for the BNP. It only affects the share of the turn-out it gets. The fact that the latter, not the former, translates into seats is a defect of our electoral system.”

How would you propose to correct such a defect?