Let’s add point 8 to Sunny’s list – Geoff Hoon has just resigned.

John Denham was already in the Cabinet as SoS at DIUS.

Why is 4 a good point?

All very enjoyable anyway.

Because the Tories don’t get in immediately!

Alan Johnson is going to become insufferably authoritarian, and thus disliked.

You could be right, but Polly Toynbee will still love him…well, until it’s too late anyway (mind you, she could be penning a ‘How could he, the bastard!’ column about him even as I type this)

Er – but what happens on Monday evening when the PLP meets to consider the way forward after the triumphal performance in the Euro elections? (The BBC is currently predicting that the local election results translate into a 38/28/23 Tory/LibDem/Lab split at the general election, and the minor parties will certainly eat into that 23% figure at a European level…)

I’m sure a quiet, mild mannered and thought-provoking discussion characterised by the highest standards of mutual respect will ensue. A perfect springboard for the future and a chance to reveal how solidly the whole PLP has rallied behnid this new look Cabinet.

Agreed about Johnson. Given that the Home Office has permanently discredited everyone who’s run it for at least a decade it’s depressing to see him heading into it’s cold embrace.

To misquote Shami Chakrabarti “there must be something in the water over there that turns normal people in raving authoritarians”.

4 is probably the best point of it all, it’ll mean that people are going to vote with a clearer mind. Anyone that wants reform needs to understand that reform needs to happen in the next 11 months. Not promised to be done after the next election, you don’t need to elect a party to give parliament a mandate, parliament just needs to ask enough people…it’s called a referendum. James Graham was around not long ago saying about citizens groups being involved to fast track the process of consultation.

If we do a general election now only one thing will happen, Tories will win and they will bring in baby reforms that don’t improve anything other than finally tighten up expenses, they’ll abandon electoral reform, and this perverse cycle will begin again.

By-election in Norwich North. Opportunity for Labour to lose deposit…

Reform has to happen BEFORE the election: no party will ever change a system that has just put them in power.

Point 8. Flint has resigned!

1) is great, but Glenys Kinnock replacing Caroline Flint is possibly even better.

Good 9. Caroline Flint looks particularly silly, resignig after the reshuffle

But….

Bad 4. There are now far too many peers in the government for any democrat to feel comfortabl, and this makes electoral reform, or at least any significant Lords reform at least, more difficult to put before the country at the same time as the general election

Aren’t you forgetting John Hutton?

Well Flint will have resigned along with McNulty and Hoon, during the reshuffle. The announcement is out now because the reshuffle has been fully announced.

as for your bad 4.

Hmm, I don’t know. The make up of government is not about being representative, government as an entity being there is an example of representation working. We elected, or well…some of us elected…for Labour to govern us. With that it has to come that we “trust” them to choose the team that is best able to follow through on the manifesto points that we also elected for them to achieve.

They could fill the government with a team of 10 year olds if they wished, it’s their choice to make and we mustn’t get caught up in all of this pro-democracy mood to take it too far. Indeed there’s a strong argument to be had about using external people and peers as it frees MPs up to carry on their constituency work democratically.

The make up of Government has nothing to do with electoral reform, nor constitutional reform…not unless you wish to tie the hands of government in contradiction to the idea of a party being elected to lead.

Blears, Purnell, Hoon and Hutton, four of the most toxic ministers in the history of Labour governments have just gone. This really is a memorable moment.

In the meantime. Have you notice the irony of James Purnell being on the dole?
The DWP should test the Welfare Reform bill on him.

2) or Johnson can scrap ID cards without threatening his reputation as Smith could never do.

Wild optimism maybe but we can live in hope that skint governments can stop spening our money quite so foolishly…

Caroline’s resignation letter is priceless.

“Time and time again I have stepped before the cameras to sincerely defend your reputation in the interests of the Labour party and the government as a whole. I am a natural party loyalist. Yet you have strained every sinew of that loyalty. It has been apparent for some time that you do not see me playing a more influential role in the government.”

Of course this was a principled protest against the exclusion of women from Brown’s government and not an act of petulance that she did not get the job she was after having stuck the knife into poor Jamie the night before.

Caroline, Jo and Jacqui. How little any of them have changed down the years.

Lee Griffin: “Anyone that wants reform needs to understand that reform needs to happen in the next 11 months.”

That sort of makes sense, as does Lee’s comment that the Tories can’t be trusted to deliver meaningful reform.

However, Brown has been unable to shuffle his state offices effectively: a few jokers have fallen from the pack, but most cards are in the same order if you are looking at the royal flush. Given that inability, how likely is Brown to deliver other reforms?

He could have played the absolute blinder of a hand by suspending current bills and running with Clegg’s 100 day reform programme. Instead, he will continue with the bills announced in the 2008/2009 legislative programme. Ironically, one of the themes of that programme was “Handing Power Back to the People”.

Draft Legislative Programme 2008-2009:
http://www.commonsleader.gov.uk/output/page2391.asp

Transport Secretary in the Lords? That tells us something about the ability of the Commons to make any sensible contribution to transport policy and delivery, albeit the Transport Committee does a good job although DfT takes little or no notice of it. Maybe Adonis will now have the clout to make some changes.

I’ve updated the list.

I’m conflicted on Caroline Flint – I think she was ok, but this shame-faced resignation after she stabbed Purnell really takes the piss.

Caroline Flint has come out of this looking really bad.

Gushing her support for Gordon in front of the cameras, only to write a bitchy resignation letter once she didn’t get the cabinet promotion she wanted. The fact she attacked Purnell for his resignation and then also claimed only hours before her resignation that the Labour Party needed to stop infighting means she has lost the right to any sympathy she might have otherwise received.

DreamingSpire- It mostly tells us about how many of the PLP’s people with any capability at all are willing or trusted to serve in Browns cabinet. Thats why it has 7 Lords, which I doudt has been matched since what, before WW1? I am pretty sure this was not very popular with Labour when Thatcher took to doing it…

I guess thats also why that well known heavyweight Bob Ainsworth is now Defence Minister.

The bad side: Labour still hasn’t reversed the Tory privatisations. Bring back British Steel.

I’m conflicted on Caroline Flint – I think she was ok

Hmmm….

# Voted moderately against a transparent Parliament. votes, speeches
# Voted strongly for introducing ID cards. votes, speeches
# Voted very strongly for introducing foundation hospitals. votes, speeches
# Voted strongly for introducing student top-up fees. votes, speeches
# Voted very strongly for Labour’s anti-terrorism laws. votes, speeches
# Voted very strongly for the Iraq war. votes, speeches
# Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war. votes, speeches
# Voted very strongly for replacing Trident. votes, speeches

Someone clearly needs to resign over this…

Leon- I don’t share Sunnys favourable feelings towards Flint but if you are making comparisions with other Labour Cabinet talents (including presumably whoever Conspiracy labourites would prefer)… well, they get to be cabinet talents by voting party line so they will universally (just about) look like that.

Not that I mind damming them all especially, but singling out Flints voting record is a little unfair.

Caroline Flint’s letter was bizarre. Brown doesn’t want powerful women around yet he tolerated the blatant liability Jacqui Smith until she opted to leave him? Curious…

Tinter – I followed in detail the debates on the ENCTS (bus pass) bill, and by far the best work was done in the Lords (albeit they failed to persuade government to get the funding process correct). By contrast, the Commons contributed very little (and, as an aside, the work in DfT has been inept to put it mildly). If you have read Baroness Scott’s blog (currently deleted because she is thinking about possible conflict with her responsibilities as LD party Chair), you will have read some excerpts from Hansard showing very high quality discussions by very expert people.

C Flint in the Guardian?

Brown staying on is probably the best thing that has happened for the Conservative Party and the worse thing for the Labour party and the country.

I wonder what the Fabian stalwarts would say after they forced Blair out saying that Brown is the messiah — and their poster boy ED BALLS ? What happened guys?

Talking about backstabbers 0– the biggest ones are Tom watson, Gordon Brown, Ed Balls, Douglas Alexander — they forced out an elected Labour leader who gave three successive victories to the Labour party.

And all you lot did was ensure a Conservative party victory. Purnell actually did not do anything wrong on the Cap Gains thing — he sold the flat when it was his primary and own residence and he has shown much more class than most of the other ministers. How is he discredited? He has much more class than the PM, Ed Balls, Cooper and the lot.

Like Blair Cameron would be a far better PM than this self serving idiot and his cronies. And the only reason Pm survived was because of Blair and Mandelson who worked the phones — at least they give a shit about the labour party. Not like the ones who just wanted to be PM.

19. “Given that inability, how likely is Brown to deliver other reforms?”

Part of me has to be optimistic, because right now I don’t want to resign myself to meaningful reform being promised for 5-6 years time and then to ultimately never receive it.

But I agree, I watched the press conference yesterday and although constitutional reform was a key area being talked about, with some progress to be announced next month or so IIRC, the idea of electoral reform was noticeable by its absence.

As I say, I’m trying to be optimistic on this one, the only other answer is that our politicians are happy to try and pull the wool over our eyes and remain in a relative status quo, and that’s the most depressing thing, politically, that I can think of.

I also have to say that Brown’s press conference was one of the best performances I’ve seen him give. He seemed to me like he knows his back is against the wall, and finally that’s translating in to a bit of passion.

Purnell has come out of it looking opportunist, Flint spoiled and petty, big names are sticking behind Brown (with some subtle caveats that they don’t expect him to stay on for long).

People who have seen my comments know I despise what Labour have become, and I dislike Brown…but this last day and how he’s played it has been one of his better decisions, especially compared to the relative news coming out of the results and resignations. And this can only be a good thing, national shares the BBC projected are clearly skewed right now and are based on local voting, but a slight resurgence by Brown could be the difference between a large Tory majority and a small one.

A downside which could have been dodged, so is even worse for that fact:

The highest number of unelected members of a cabinet for well over a century.
How shallow must the talent pool of current labour MPs be?

Too small a talent pool? Blame NuLab for not bringing on more of the best of the intakes of 1997, 2001, 2005 (even for pushing some of them out, I suspect).

Oh, you guys are just biased against New Labour because of the recession.

but singling out Flints voting record is a little unfair.

Don’t be absurd, I didn’t single her out Sunny did. If he’d said ‘I’m conflicted about John Hutton, I thought he was ok’ I’d pulled up his voting record too!

The poll of 800 party members carried out by YouGov for Channel 4 News found that one in three thought Labour stood no chance of winning a general election if Brown remained leader and 53% thought they would be better off if Tony Blair was still in Number 10.

This is from the Guardian

Gordon Brown, Ed Balls, Ed Miliband, Douglas Alexander, Tom Watson supported by such great clever people (as Guardian describes them) in the Fabian Society and many other so called left liberal thinkers perpetrated a fraud against the Party and the Country by forcing Blair out of office.

Those involved included Tonybee, Ashely, Freedland and the rest of the Guardian freaks who would not be trusted to run even a corner shop talking crap and selling false bill of goods.

Man, if I were Blair — I would call each one of these idiots inlcuding our substantial (my ass) PM and say I gave the party 3 tremendous victories (despite the Iraq war) and you lot transformed that into a party of losers. A party now completely rejected by the electorate.

Food for thought I hope for latte drinking blair hating liberals. All you lot did was give Tories a massive victory and ensure Labour is out of power for a generation.

“All you lot did was give Tories a massive victory and ensure Labour is out of power for a generation.”

Firstly, “liberals” didn’t think Brown was going to do any good, or at least wouldn’t be any more “liberal” than Blair was.

Secondly the Labour party itself, even before Brown became PM, are looking like giving the Tories their massive victory, they have no-one but themselves to blame.

Leon: I meant that a voting record of a minister is totally uninformative because it necessarily follows party line 100%. Unless you mean all New Labour is crap, which hey, fine by me but I didn’t get that from your post.

Note I do think Flint is rubbish, I just don’t think the voting record is what particulary provides the evidence.

Also, quite forgot, the mandelson emails. He is not someone I ever thought I would find myself completly in agreement with, but what do you know? I think I do, from what I have gathered so far. The only disagreement I have is that his criticism doesn’t go nearly far enough, but for his inumerable wrongs Mandelson is at least PR capable so its no suprise to find him able to percive the obvious.

Given it appears Mandelson, Miliband and Johnson appear jointly respondible for keeping Brown in the job, it will be interesting how the public knowing he thinks hes crap works out. I don’t think the answer can be good for Brown. At the least, the fact he can’t do anything but leave mandelson as what must the highest placed lord for a while will show his incredible weakness.

If we want to look for the origins of the present Labour malaise, we need to go further back than 2007. Blair’s government, having started with the NuLab philosophy (which someone else has pointed out made NuLab centrist rather than socialist) lost its way at the end of 2004 – before that there had been preparations for updating public administration to fully cope with the Information Age and nationally applied technology driven processes, preparations going right back to 97, but at the end of 04 it stopped. Some day we will find out which dinosaurs trampled on it.
Brown appears to be wanting to get us back on track, but so far has not built a team or found a way to match progress in technology with our common law constitution.