There have been a lot of questions in the titles of recent LibCon articles, like this one..

Do we need an Armed Forces Day?

Can Labour learn the lessons?

Does religion have a role in British politics?

Will they really hand back power to the people?

Is Michael Jackson still alive? (just kidding, doesn’t count)

I wonder – do we have an issue where the liberal left just doesn’t know where it stands on many of these very important issues? Of course, as the great man himself would say, it doesn’t matter if your stance on these things is black or white (Shamooone!) so there will always be disagreement, but it seems we spend a lot of time arguing over basic positions on such issues rather than forging ahead with a consensus to achieve things.

LibCon was supposed to be a campaigning force after all. Don’t get me wrong, I love it, and unlike a few disgruntled Lib Dems I don’t have an issue with the editorial line or policy. There’s a lot of energy in these thar threads.

Denim Justice – it an almost infallible rule that any headline with a question mark merits the answer no.

Look at your list:

Do we need an Armed Forces Day? No

Can Labour learn the lessons? No

Does religion have a role in British politics? No

Will they really hand back power to the people? No

Is Michael Jackson still alive? No

See? This is also known as the Daily Mail test, thanks to their habit of writing “Did ancient fish gods build the pyramids?” “Do gypsies give you cancer?” type headlines.

I wasn’t really in favour of Armed Forces Day until you contrasted it with Trooping the Colour.

Any ceremony which breaks the link between the military and the monarchy can’t be all bad.

Who cares if a bunch of soldiers want to walk through the town good luck to them.

I was at a school asking this question which countries went to war with Germany, one lad said Israel, he said yes they did, because my dad said the Jews are always fighting, another said the Irish, another said the Scots they went with the Romans.

which says a lot for the the words they shall never be forgotten… they have already.

I don’t know if need is the right word and I don’t know if the motives behind its establishment were all kosher but I do back the idea of a day that celebrates and pays respect to those that sign up to the armed forces and the sacrifices they make.

And if it can prod us into applying greater pressure on our MPs to protect and provide for our veterans then it can’t be at all bad.

“Do we need an ‘Armed Forces Day’?”

NO

Do we need more religion in politics?

NO

These questions are getting easier and easier.

I don’t think just going no is good enough really.

Well, if you ask a silly question…

…you don’t have to give a silly answer.

Just a thought.

Don’t tell me how to answer the question buddy. I don’t tell you what answe to give.

Is the logo at the top official? If so, it seems deliberately designed to stop the BNP hijacking the event.

Funny thing – nobody thought of an Armed Forces Day after World War I or World War II, two wars fought by mainly conscript armies. Nobody thought of an Armed Forces Day when the British State was sending conscripts to fight and die in places like Korea, Malaya, etc.
Now that we have professional armed forces, fighting unpopular wars, someone comes up with this bright idea.
Being cynical I see this as an attempt to link our current mercenary forces fighting for the American Empire with the reluctant heroes who fought and defeated the forces of fascism. I did my bit for British Imperialism in the fifties, keeping the people of Cyprus under the heel. I regard this as a an attempt to boost flagging morale, and to get the nation onside.

“Being cynical I see this as an attempt to link our current mercenary forces fighting for the American Empire with the reluctant heroes who fought and defeated the forces of fascism. I did my bit for British Imperialism in the fifties, keeping the people of Cyprus under the heel. I regard this as a an attempt to boost flagging morale, and to get the nation onside.”

I don’t think your being cynical at all. In fact I think you are bang on the money. The military industrial complex is insatiable. They have to keep feeding billions and billion of $s into it. That means there will be more wars for oil and other resources, and British politicians have to be able to sell this bullshit to the people.

So lets get all the sheeple to get behind the troops, then maybe that will make them less questioning when we send those nice troops off on more of these wars for profit.

Sally: ease up there love, no one told you how to answer the question. And you seem to be far too eager to jump aboard the tin foil hat wearing donkey and ride it to death than consider the merits of an idea that may boost the care of our soldiers when they return from being ‘British Imperialists’ and part of the insatiable military complex.

Jemmy: I’m not sure if it matters that an armed forces day was not considered after any of those conflicts and indeed, maybe the source of it was not genuine but the concept itself is not a bad one at all.

And in all of this there seems to be a lot of forgetting about the men and women serving due to the collective fug of cynicism.

“And in all of this there seems to be a lot of forgetting about the men and women serving due to the collective fug of cynicism.”

We have a voluntary military, Nobody has to serve if they don’t want to.

But anyone who does should understand that they will be fighting for Anglo American oil companies rather than defending British shores.

No. We shouldn’t.

I don’t feel at ease with celebrating the military. It smacks of brainwashing of the highest order and kool-aid notion that your country is always right no matter what. It implies automatic stifling of any questioning and it tramples over a number of issues: from arms proliferation to which wars are being fought and why.

Sally: indeed, it is a voluntary to join the military, although we are inching toward a US system where the poorer members of society are targeted, indeed that already happens, not on the scale of the American operation but it does. So we are moving away from ‘choice’ and getting into forced hands.

But I’m not sure what ‘”Nobody has to serve if they don’t want to” has to do with it? No one has to be a nurse, or a doctor, or a teacher, all roles that need high levels of public sup[port and deserve greater efforts to raise the standards of their workplaces and the way they are paid and treated.

Your final summation of the role of the armed forces is a little narrow and sounds like you’re still on the tinfoil hat wearing donkey; it also sounds alarmingly like something that could go on a BNP flyer don’t you think?

Claude: armed forces day shouldn’t be about celebrating the military, more the men and women that make up the armed forces, celebrating them. It seems to be splitting hairs but it is an important distinction.

Also, we have grown squeamish about celebrating the abilities of our military, this is a shame I think and shows a lack of realism in some quarters.

And if armed forces day is “brainswashing of the highest order” than whoever is in charge of brainwashing has a very limited imagination and knowledge of brainwashing.

Armed forces day does not say: “your country is always right no matter what” and it does not impy “automatic stifling of any questioning and it tramples over a number of issues: from arms proliferation to which wars are being fought and why”.

If only this one day did all those things, if only it was that powerful in concept, in reality, it is an event roundly ignored by many, especially those on the left, who seem to have a real problem with the military that can verge from an utter lack of respect to a deep sense of mistrust.

It is a cliche of the left that we are a bunch of liver-livered sods, afraid of getting our hands dirty and many here are taking the concept of armed forces day and running with it to the extremes of human imagination regarding its intent and purpose.

We should reel that in and focus on what it should be, a amrk of respect for those that do a difficult job.

Daniel, don’t mess with Sally.

It is well known on this site that she is a Tory troll in a pretty thin disguise.

Really? The threshold around here for trolling seems very slight indeed, I got ‘cautioned’ for a slightly jokey comment on another thread immediately, so I thought that all voices here were/are genuine.

But thanks for the warning Pagar.

Really?

I’ve been posting comments here for for ages and never managed a caution.

You’ve really spoiled my day now.

” No one has to be a nurse, or a doctor, or a teacher, all roles that need high levels of public support and deserve greater efforts to raise the standards of their workplaces and the way they are paid and treated.”
True, Daniel; no one has to save lives, and no one has to take lives.
Now where’s that tinfoil?

Pagar: yes, my first comment here in a year and I got a caution, kinda put me off a wee bit but still. Sorry to spoil your day.

Jemmy Hope: “no one has to save lives, and no one has to take lives” yep but sometimes we do. Hopefully more of the former though.

Interesting one this. I joined the army in a moment of patriotic zeal during the Falklands war. Spent a few years protecting the west from the evil commie hordes (as we were taught back then) then returned to civi-street.

I had never heard of veterans day before it was renamed, despite hanging around with Royal British Legion members ever since. Remembrance Sunday has always been (during my lifetime) the focal point for those wishing to show their respect for the armed forces, both living and dead. I know this from personal experience as I’ve seen and heard the comments from bystanders as serving service personnel march past after wreath laying.

Personally I suspect that the Gov. have spotted a way to accumulate some brownie points at zero cost and couldn’t help but leap on the band wagon pushed out by a very well meaning pressure group.

There is another pressure group lobbying for the forces called “Homes For Heroes”. Trouble is they want the Gov. to actually get off their backsides and sort out housing and welfare for veterans, which will take effort and money. So their band wagon has politely ignored.

I don’t think we need a forces day. Smacks of US style jingoism and that’s just not the British way. Quiet flag waving or total apathy is more our style.

“Quiet flag waving or total apathy is more our style”

In an ideal world, Armed Forces Day could be used as a middle ground and to en-act the kind of change you’re talking about.

‘Any ceremony which breaks the link between the military and the monarchy can’t be all bad.’

That’s an odd thing to say. Would you rather have a army headed by a political president as a head? Americans found it very difficult to oppose the Iraq War at the start not least because it was the decision of the commander in chief and the head of state and therefore to oppose it was unpatriotic. That wasn’t the case in Britiain where you can oppose the policies of the Prime Minister without having your patriotism called into question.

@25

I agree and if I thought it could work out to the practical benefit of forces folk in need I’d happily join in. Trouble is I suspect it will polarise the extremes at either end of the political spectrum, leading to conflict, while the apathetic majority stay out of the way.

There is also the risk that people will think that watching a parade equates to “doing their bit for the troops”. This could seriously impact the many charities that are already struggling to support service personnel and their families. And lets the Gov. off the hook ‘cos “we got forces day, what more do they want?”.

OK, we all volunteered for the job. But our families did not volunteer to live with PTSD, alcoholism, disability etc. Also, once you’ve signed on it takes some serious bottle to refuse to serve on moral grounds. Unless you can prove absolutly beyond doubt that you are refusing an illegal order, and there is no legal aid on a battle field, you are looking at: automatic detention, some serious “motivational realignment”, ostracising by your former mates, and a Courts Martial. The few who have tried this have come of worst from the process.

Personaly I’ll stick to wearing a poppy at that time of year, listing to the yarns of the veterans, and not complaining when serving members get a bit pissed down town when they’re on leave.

Dave: I do agree with much of what you say, esp. regards impact on families. I suppose I have a problem with the knee-jerk leftist response that connects military with immediately bad that I have sensed elsewhere here.

Regarding fund raising, much could be done here, since the age of 18 or so I’ve only ever really given to one charity, St.Dunstans and focus all my giving to them. But when someone attempts to chug me and I say who I have already given to, they have never heard of it and presume I’m lying.

Whatever device (and this may not be it) that can raise better funds for service men and women and their support networks, the better.

That’s right, celebrate the government being armed but throw citizens in prison for a minimum of 5 years when they dare to own a pistol with which to defend their families from being raped and murdered.

Libertarian in the house!

The army isn’t the government being armed, you seem confused and as for citizens owning weapons illegally, yes that is worthy of a stint in prison.

The Libertarian platform is limited at best.