And I thought the Spectator was bad under Conrad Black.

‘What’s notable isn’t just that Phillips perpetuates these conspiracy theories – but that mainstream right-wing publications such as Spectator Magazine are happy to publish it.’

Yes, agree. I picked up the Spectator the other week and goodness it was dire – badly written, badly edited. full of dumb dull ramblings of assorted not-nice-and-dims.

I used to get it in the 80s and early 90s, largely to cut out the John Glashan cartoons (I still have them) but they had some really fine writers, and what a wag called the charming nest of tits at the back, Jeffrey Bernard, Taki and Alice Thomas Ellis.

When Jennifer Paterson started her food column, a friend wrote in to thank her for a recipe – something like bread stuff with beef or perhaps crocodile fillets – and they began regular wee merry exchanges about my pal’s husband, a Labour Party stalwart who regarded the Spectator as the voice of Satan.

Maybe it was the voice of Satan, but it was good to read, unlike the New Statesman – though come to think of it, the NS has simply stayed unreadable shite from the 80s on.

It’s jusof symptom of modern ‘democracy’: if you can’t win a vote, try some desperate arse-hole legalistic move.

I blame the dearth of assassins.

You knew where you were in the 60′s.

Message to anyone involved in politics:

Fight the next election, not the last one.

Nobody ever bitched themselves back into power.

Is Melanie Phillips a nutter? I haven’t read any of her stuff but from what is mentioned on blogs its seems like she is not worthy of being listened to. Maybe she likes to be hated.

Hey! They’re right to question Obama’s place of birth.

After all, it’s perfectly well known the US never landed on the moon (I mean, how is a rocket supposed to blast off from a flat earth?) – and that the US government was responsible for 9/11.

All this was discovered by tenacious citizens teasing out the details in their dank basements. Be grateful for these good people, they are the keepers of troof!

On a bad day on the Internet I’ll get into a tedious discussion with one of those birthers, it seems that in their efforts to accept anything but the truth, their arguments are built on absolutely nothing because everything is a conspiracy; it’s like battling on quicksand.

Having said that, such attitudes are rooted in partizan politics or racism, there is always a reason for being a nob I’ve found.

Well you make the mistake of calling them ‘media.’ That implies independent news organisations that deliver decent reporting. Most of the American media is nothing more than the propaganda dept of The Right wing. It is either corporate controlled or in pay of large think tanks that are funded by a small group of billionaires and millionaires with the sole purpose of promoting polices that benefit said billionaires and millionaires.

Even so called liberal newspapers like the Washington Post are now nothing more than right wing propaganda rags. Look how many columnists on that paper are staunch Neo- Conservatives. One of their best and few Liberal columnists who has dared to point out the idiocy of the right wing media was sacked a month ago.

The Right has so attacked the media with the Liberal bias bullshit for the last 30 years that the fear any journalist has now is the be branded as a Liberal. It does not matter if that is not the case, if you are simply doing your job and pointing out the lies of both the left and Right you will be branded as a liberal.

It used to be the case that the worst thing you could say about a journalist in America was that he was inaccurate, now that is no longer true. Being called a Liberal is far more damaging for your career. Being inaccurate is a positive, just as long as you are a right wing tool.

Mel Phillips seems to be writing for a US neocon right audience at times – she made a big thing about Obama’s “radical” past. I can’t see what influence these kind of articles would have on a GB conservative audience.

“Mel Phillips seems to be writing for a US neocon right audience at times

The UK Right wing press gets very vocal at US election time. Why, I don’t know. I can’t believe they have much effect. Maybe they think there are a lot of Americans over here and will vote by absentee ballot, so they may influence them.

Maybe a lot of Americans read the British media on the NET. But it is not as if there is shortage of Right wing whack jobs writing in the American media. Phillips has followed in the footsteps of Paul Johnston, who moved from left to Right, to wing nut loon. But the money is good, so I guess that is all that matters.

Obviously Obama was born in the US and there’s something very wrong with you if you don’t believe that. However, the rule about having to be born in the US is preposterous. Also, that rule we in the UK have about having to be descended from the right ancient chieftains? That’s pretty moronic too!

What’s even more absurd about the whole “Obama was born outside of America” meme, is that McCain was born in a (now defunct) US military base in Panama! But nobody ever brought that up did they? At least Obama was born in one of the 50 states (Hawaii). Am I the only one that thinks this was a closet racist thing?

@12 s/”ancient chieftans”/”random posh Germans”, and 100% agreed.

Oh dear me, that video gave me such a good laugh on a tired and hungover Sunday morning.

I notice those people have the tradition hallmarks of a conspiracy theorist – steely gaze, ranting demeanour, total imperviousness to logic or evidence.

@Zarathustra, yes I imagien that’s how many of the troll-types that frequent here look like.

Also, did I read that right? The woman who’s an attorney is also a dentist and a real estate agent???? What the flid?

Heh, yes, diversification of small talent or spreading it thin. Hah!

Alex @13:

If Mr. McCain was indeed born on a US military base then both by US perception and by international law he was born “in the US”: on US sovereign soil.

Indeed John, the McCain thing is old news and was just a curio in comparison to the Obama nonsense.

Though I bet it wouldn’t be if Barack Obama had been born on a US military base. People would be running around trying to “prove” he was born off the base.

But then he’d have the gain of military connections, although that didn’t do Kerry any good.

The hoo-ha regarding the certificate has arrisen, in part, to Obama’s refusal to release the Original Vault copy of his birth certificate for public record during the election campaign.

The copy released for scrutiny was not the Original Vault copy. Maybe a perfectly sound reason for this – but it should have been presented so this could be seen to be beyond doubt.

After all, the President / Commander in Chief must have been born on US territory.
So, along with refusal to release his medical records and his academic records his campaign created a ‘rod for their own back’.

This one is going to run and run.
No point pretending Melanie Phillips (or Lou Dobbs for that matter) is a fruiitcake for mentioning it.

It’s really unfortunate to be pushing theories when your name is O RLY…

OMG! We spend quite few comments mocking the kind if idiot that falls for the Obama smear and then one turns up in the form of Kojak.

The only thing that’s going to run and run is right-wing sore losers not able to take defeat gracefully and accept that Obama won and is a bloody American.

Oh dear.

Mainstream lefty publications may be somewhat dull but at least they don’t publish front-page editorials that are pure unadulterated rubbish.

So we’re just going to ignore the whole Trig-Truther antics of the idiotic Andrew Sullivan, Daily Kos and Huffington Post then are we?

Perhaps Sunny you’ll aim for fairness and write a post on “how crap the left wing blogosphere is” (you excepted of course).

Who said anything about ignoring and surely, two wrongs do not make a right or is this all about pointing fingers and going: “LOOK OVER THERE! THEY’RE DOING IT DO!”

And I could be wrong but the grotesque amount of racist and anti-liberal nonsense that came spewing out of the so-called grass roots conservative movement in the US was a disgusting and grim affair but hey, a few post son Huffington make that alright…

Can’t someone go to the registry office, (or its equivalent) in Honolulu and request a copy of the birth certificate? Don’t celebrity-stalking journalists do that all the time in the UK? Not that evidence would change any narrow minds.
Almost anything written about Brigitte Bardot will state that her real name is Camille Javal, though she insists that BB is her birth name. One really smart biographer went to the town hall in her birthplace and looked up entry on her birth in the register. What do you know, she was telling the truth, but it made no difference. She’s still Camille Javal to the hacks.
… and some people still believe that Uri Geller can read minds. Give up, James Randi!

Jemmy, the Obama isn’t an American is a no starter, the Obama campaign dealth with it by releasing the birth certificate, in other words, it’s dealth with the the right-wing loonies are fighting on quicksand with no fixed points.

Daniel Hoffman -Gill re: comment 25,

The article doesn’t clearly define what it’s subject is: The so called ‘Birther movement’ is and why it has developed over the last year.

Any prospective candidate for President will face all kinds of scrutiny from their opponents (be they outside or inside their own party). Full disclosure of their original vault copy birth certificate, their medical, academic + military (if there are any) records is standard proceedure. Do you remember how much speculation there was about Clinton’s draft v college or George W Bush’s duty in the National Guard?

By providing this kind of information (facts) candidates neutralize this kind of speculation.

Once in office Obama has made much capital of being a black man from a Muslim family, and good for him for doing so. What is odd is that his earlier reluctance to provide the full information persists whilst he is in office. He is still enjoying great popularity and has yet to hit a real problem. Imagine what it’s going to be like in 2 years time when the taxes go up to pay for the policies. You don’t think people are going to let this one go unanswered do you?

PS: Calling people ‘idiot’ just because they have a different opinion to yours (on a boardwith the word ‘Conspiracies’ in it’s title) is a bit sad.

Kojak, I understand that America is stupid enough to reduce it’s highest election to a game show and I also understand that such is the partizan and base level of much of modern US politics that playing to lowest common denominator works as a method to stir up the grass-roots level activist.

I’ve been debating US based Rethugs since 2001.

In this case information was provided to neutralise the speculation but the wonderfully grotesque nature of American politics is such that things like ‘evidence’ and ‘proof’ are given short shrift by those that have an axe to grind and do not want to believe.

Everyone needs a hook to hang their irrational hate on.

“Once in office Obama has made much capital of being a black man from a Muslim family”

Pardon? Are you kidding me? This is your opinion , not fact and I spend much of my day pouring over White House missives and the wonderfully transperant information they put out and your statement only reflects your political bias, to anyone with an objective mind, Obama has done no such thing.

“He is still enjoying great popularity and has yet to hit a real problem.”

This makes me laugh and expose fuirther your bias, he has inherited a massive sack of shit from the previous administration, the fact that he has had to make tough decisions and juggle two inherited wars and still keep up in the ratings reflects how good he is, not that he has had nothing to do.

To be clear, there is no bone of contention over the origions of Obama, the fact you still persist in insinuating their is speaks volumes of your deductive ability and how firmly your head is buried in the sand.

It may upset you but Obama is American.

Jemmy re: comment 28,

The Birth Certificate released for scutiny is not the Original Vault copy which would contain the seal that could be verified.

I have no idea why it hasn’t been released, probably a good reason for it, but until it is released this conspiracy will gather momentum.

Last week a soldier refused to fight in Afghanistan – citing this issue as a reason not to serve as he asserted Obama had not been proven to be the Commander-In-Chief (born in US territory being a prequalification to hold that position).

His original birth certificate has been released and it is the real one, this raised seal nonsense is just that, utter horse shit, see this lovely post from fact check for ref: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

The real issue is why people like Kojak and others are so deeply encased in a sense of refusal to accept the truth and whay underlaying motives they have.

Daniel Hoffman-Gill

and whay underlaying motives they have.

The first resort of the liberal – cry racism.

I have no truck with birther conspiracies but to think that any opposition to Obama is just about racism gives your arguments no merit whatsoever. And then to deny that Obama has focused on his ethnicity and the faith of his family is head in the sand time.

From his Egypt speech:

Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President.

Or when he made the statement about how he “doesn’t lokok like all the other Presidents on dollar bills”

Obama is like every other politician. When it suits, he will use every asset he has going for him, including his ethnicity. That’s fine, it’s part of the game, but it is foolish to deny that he does it.

Daniel re: comment 31,

Your ability to come to the wrong analysis of a my comments does this board no service.
That you have been debating the US since 2001 neither makes you an expert or correct.

Obama is now the President, not a candidate, and owes a duty to the office not to bring it into disrepute by allowing mistrust in his tenure by seemingly having something to hide. The appetite for cover-ups is voracious – so just release the information.

So, as to your suggestion of my ‘political bias’ for noting Obama has made much capital of being a Black man from a Muslim family ………. in his recent speach in Cairo and visit to Africa he made many references to this. He doesn’t have a problem with it or imply people are biased for observing it. I’m affraid the bias is much closer to you than you think.

I didn’t say he has had nothing to do, far from it, merely pointed out the cost programmes have yet to be picked up by the voter and so far he hasn’t hit a real problem – not faced the ongoing problems of the previous administration.

I am not in the slightest bit upset that Obama is an American. Why on earth should I?

The issue that won’t go away until the original vault copy of his birth certificate is released is whether it can be proven by oponents that he wasn’t born on US territory.

Only release of the certificate will allow that to be proven one way or the other.

CC:

You have read a great deal into the phrase: “and what underlaying motives they have.” making out to be an accusation of racism on the part of people that doubt that Obama is American. What would you suggest the underlaying motive is for such an act of denial?

Do you deny that many who challenge his Americaness do so because they are racist? Would you deny that America still suffers from crippling racism?

I think your jump to deny racism speaks volumes of how close it is to the matter at hand.

Sho wme where I have said that all opposition to Obama is racist? You cannot because I have not. Show me where Obama has used his blackness or the fact that he has some elements of Islam in his family for some kind of personal gain?

The quote you provide does no such thing, rather he issued a statement of fact; as for the quote regarding the dollar bill, again, a statement of fact. Do you expect him not to mention his background, which every other President has used to some level to increase a level of connection or experience with the electorate?

I have no idea why we are even dicussing this, aside from the Rethug bringing this matter into the thread and trotting out the tired old lie that the birth certificate isn’t the real one when it is.

Kojak,

I’m not usre why you persist to debate here, when you come with an agenda that is the birth certificate is still an issue when it is not, at all an issue. In a sense your participation proves the point about the desperation of the birthers.

“Obama is now the President, not a candidate, and owes a duty to the office not to bring it into disrepute by allowing mistrust in his tenure by seemingly having something to hide. The appetite for cover-ups is voracious – so just release the information.”

He hasn’t brought it into disrepute (although lying a nation into a war is so…) and there is no mistrust, unless you’re an idiot, there is nothing to hide, again unless you’re an idiot and he has disclosed, fully the evidence required.

I have already delath with the tedious idea that Obama is trying to make captial of his origins whereas in reality he is merely not hiding them, one gets the sense you would prefer that? It’s a non-point, any one in public service brings their personal background to bear on their work. Simple as.

He hasn’t hit a real problem because he’s steered well through choppy waters.

“The issue that won’t go away until the original vault copy of his birth certificate is released is whether it can be proven by oponents that he wasn’t born on US territory.”

It was released, as I’ve said and no one with a brain thinks that Obama is not an American citizen and the more you propogate the lie, the more you look like an aforementioned idiot.

Now please go away, the repating that you are wrong and that the real birth certificate has been seen is becoming very, very wearisome.

“Only release of the certificate will allow that to be proven one way or the other.”

It has been, ages ago, now will you shut up.

To be clear to everyone, Obama’s birth certificate with raised seal and all was released, ages ago but the presence of birthers in this thread speaks volumes for the stupidity of many.

Daniel

Well you did cry “racist” in an earlier comment.

Actually I don’t think the birther conspiracy is driven by race, after all, one of the conspiracists is Alan keyes. However, I would agree that the meme is not about some sense of justice.

Obama is a very divisive politician, not because of colour, but because of his liberalism. The Birthers see this as an eay way to discredit him and in their mistaken view, invalidate his Presidency. The second motive is not about race, but about religion. They want to identify him as a muslim, not a winning strategy in America. Obama hasn’t helped himself here. His overtures to the muslim world and his reticence in finding a church post Rev Wright are only feeding into their suspicions.

I have two main problems with what you are saying.

1. You are trying to conflate birtherism with the right wing conservative movement. I don’t see it that way. It is only at the extremes of conservatism that the birther thing is resonating, not within the movement as a whole.

2. I question your uncritical view of Obama. The last month or so demonstrates Obama’s fallibility. Falling poll numbers, a failed recovery (stimulus), the stalling of key policies in Congress and foreign policy inertia shows that Obama is not the “change” that his supporters believed (at least in the short term).

The birther thing is stupid, debating Obama’s policies has much more traction for the GOP.

CC:

Are we still at this?

Tell you what, you answer my questions in 36 and I’ll answer yours?

“Obama is a very divisive politician”

That’s odd because his cross-party approval ratings are very high, never mind his approavl ratings with the US population, which would suggest he’s not divisive but…SHOCK HOROR…inclusive. No wonder conservatives hate that.

“Obama hasn’t helped himself here. His overtures to the muslim world and his reticence in finding a church post Rev Wright are only feeding into their suspicions.”

These idiots would have suspicions no matter what, that in itself shows their worth and by overtures to the Muslim world I presume you mean not demonsing them and actually talking to them?

1. Birthers are from the right-wing conservative movement in the US, not all right-wingers are birthers thank God but some are. I have never said all right-wingers believe that Obama is a Muslim overlord born in Satanville.

2. I don’t have an uncritical view of Obama for you to question, this thread isn’t about a critical review of Obama’s policy, it is about idiot birthers. For all the things you list as failure, elsewhere I’ve listed recent success. So it goes, two-way street. But he’s better than the last guy so that’s a blessing.

“The birther thing is stupid, debating Obama’s policies has much more traction for the GOP.”

I agree but if some elements of the GOP keep doing this shit then let them sink with the idiots.

Daniel

Are we still at this?

Yes, because debate is fun.

Which questions didn’t I answer. I showed wvidence of Obama using both his race and his faith heritage. Nowhere did I mention “personal gain”, that’s a straw man you are using. He did use his race for political gain though, the dollar quote was race baiting, suggesting that GOP opposition to him was racist. As for his Egypt quote, yes it is fact, but he still uses to establish his credential with the muslim world. You were responding to the fact that Obama had not capitalised on his race and religious background. Both those examples are proof that he has used them for political capital.

That’s odd because his cross-party approval ratings are very high

Daniel

Sorry, pressed submit by accident

That’s odd because his cross-party approval ratings are very high

You’re a bit behind the times. His poll numbers are falling steadily, particularly amongst independents. And support for his policies is particularly troublesome for him. His two signature policies: Cap and trade and Obamacare are becoming increasingly unpopular as the potential cost to the taxpayer and the deficit become apparent.

If you don’t want to debate Obama’s record, that’s fine, but I find it more interesting than birtherism

I question your uncritical view of Obama. The last month or so demonstrates Obama’s fallibility. Falling poll numbers, a failed recovery (stimulus), the stalling of key policies in Congress and foreign policy inertia shows that Obama is not the “change” that his supporters believed (at least in the short term).

His poll numbers are about the same place they were for Reagan and Bush. No one expected them to stay sky-high forever, especially since he has to pick up from the mess that Bush left.

The stimulus won’t work so quickly – the economy works slowly.

CC:

Sometimes debate is fun…

Questions I asked:

1) What would you suggest the underlaying motive is for such an act of denial?
2) Do you deny that many who challenge his Americaness do so because they are racist?
3) Would you deny that America still suffers from crippling racism?
4) Show me where I have said that all opposition to Obama is racist?

What you call using faith and heritage I call being human in public office.

Dollar quote as race baitng? Good grief, that says much about the angle you approach it from. That’s your opinion, not mine.

Again, what you call capitalising I call being in public office and tools by which to engage the public; no wrongdoing there.

As for being behind the times as you sweetly put it, you’re wrong and leaning far too much on figures to suit your own agenda, for example latest Rasmussen figures are: 30% of the nation’s voters now Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Thirty-seven percent (37%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of –7 (see trends). Sixty-three percent (63%) of political liberals Strongly Approve while 60% of conservatives Strongly Disapprove. Seventy percent (70%) view the President as politically liberal, including 43% who say he is Very Liberal.

He still has a greater conservative base than many past Democratic President’s and as Sunny points out, figures go up and down, he is not as much of a polarising figure as Bush or Clinton.

Cool.

“If you don’t want to debate Obama’s record, that’s fine, but I find it more interesting than birtherism”

Indeed it is but this is about birtherism. And how I love debating a President’s record when they’ve been in power 7 whole months! W00t!!!

Sunny

The stimulus won’t work so quickly – the economy works slowly.

But that’s not what Obama and his administration said. They said the stimulus needed to be passed immediately and that it would create jobs immediately. They predicted that unemployment without the stimulus would be at 9% at this time, with the stimulus, at 8%. It is 9.5%, more than Obama’s own people said it would be without the stimulus. So that’s money well spent.

Yes polls do go down, but there is a weakness to Obama’s position behind the numbers. Firstly, according to a recent Gallup poll, most who express approval for Obama do so because of the leadership that he’s showing. That’s very creditable but is also quite soft. The main reason for disapproval ( a growing number) is a dislike for his policies. you are more the political watcher than I, but I would suggest that policy based disagreement is “harder” than personality based approval. Secondly, There is a diminishing level of support for Obama’s actions. On Sotomayor, Obamacare and especially Cap and Trade, Obama has nothing like the levels of his personal approval.

Obama is personally popular still but his policies aren’t and I would suggest that that is a weak position to be in.

Daniel

The only one of those questions I didn’t answer earlier was whether America suffers from crippling racism.

No I don’t think so. How is any racism crippling? does it prevent political advancement? Not with an African-American President, two recent African-American Secretaries of state and a black justice. (and a soon to be latina justice). Black-owned businesses are the fastest growing segment of new business.

Now you can make the argument that there is less opportunity for blacks in America. But I would argue that that is more about welfarism and it’s attendant negative impact on the black community and also a poor school system held to ransom by the teachers unions. Just because bad things happen to the black community does not mean that that is because of racism.

And how I love debating a President’s record when they’ve been in power 7 whole months! W00t!!!

Struggling to think of some accomplishments there?

CC – comapre Obama with past figures and you’ll see him less polarising. Anyway, I don’t really care for a bunch of whining Republicans like the Rush Limbaugh crew. They lost the election. They can whine as much as they want.

But that’s not what Obama and his administration said. They said the stimulus needed to be passed immediately and that it would create jobs immediately.

They also said it would take years to get the economy going.

Daniel Hoffman-Gill re: comment 38,

I think you are mistaken. A scanned copy of his birth certificate was released by/for Obama whist a candidate – not the original.

This isn’t a complicated matter to resolve, indeed it is very straight forward and needn’t anyone be called stupid or idiot.

If the original vault copy is released for inspection then the momentum behind the uncertainty will be stopped in it’s track.

What you seem to be oblivious to is that this subject is now spreading beyond the usual conservative radio hosts like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh onto the main broadcasters like CBS – the Lou Dobbs showI referred to in my first comment.

Considering we have just witnessed the harmful effects of our Right Honerable Members of Parliament trying to restrict the release of their information – I didn’t think this would be such a hard point to comprehend.

But then again …….. I must be an idiot, stupid, a racist, right wing or another of your accusations.

Sunny

Anyway, I don’t really care for a bunch of whining Republicans like the Rush Limbaugh crew. They lost the election. They can whine as much as they want.

And there I was thinking that yours was a different type of liberal site. How is that sort of response any different to the Limbaugh crowd. It puts you in the same mucky pool, just at different ends. I hoped you were better than that.

CC:

Sunny’s less verbose than me and better at answering thank goodness, clearly you have a strongly conservative agenda that you’re bringing to bear on this. It’s notas if you’re the voice of reasoned and balanced assessment of popularity figures. Just a thought…

As for racism not being much of an issue in the US, good grief man, pull your ideas together and for a moment take off the conseravtive, myopic spectacles and see that although it’s amazing Obama made it to the position he has (and others in goverment), issues for non-whites, not just African Americans, in the US are vast and far reaching.

As for struggling hardly, I’ve posted just a handful of recent achievements in another thread, this is isn’t about that however, so I’m not reposting it, it’s about birthers.

Cool.

Finally, your sweeping dismissing of Sunny based on his Limbaugh comment (with an unsavoury Iain Dale-esque turn of phrase, with all that “I thought you were better than that froth”) shows your need to duck ideas and attack people.

Come on cabbie! Try harder chap!

They lost the election. They can whine as much as they want.

Chalk this up as another quote that may possibly be dragged out in a year’s time…

Kojak:

FUCKING HELL THIS IS EXACTLY THE MADNESS THAT THIS FUCKING POST WAS ABOUT YOU TWONK!

I am not mistaken, you are, it wasn’t a scanned copy but a real one, have you not gone to the link I posted (here it is again: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html) or watched the video? It is the original with all the markings and signitures, verified by independent and Republican government sources.

ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

You are a fucking cretin.

Apologies to everyone for my language, apart from the bald, lollypop sucking detective.

Well Tim J you’ve had plenty of practice since 97 and you’ve mastered whining quite nicely.

NEXT!

And there I was thinking that yours was a different type of liberal site. How is that sort of response any different to the Limbaugh crowd.

Oh dear. I think you’re mistaken about something. I’m not the kind of leftie who will bend over to appease right-wing nutjobs in the name of even-handedness. Please don’t EVER make that mistake. This is an avowedly partisan sight – you take it or you leave its political bias.

As for the Republicans – they’re a bunch of god botherers who’re racist, homophobic and climate change denialists. Anyone avoiding them would only be listening to science and reason. You actually haven’t offered me one reason why Obama shoudl listen to them. I think he pays them far too much attention as it is. They lost the election and they’re a regional-South party.

Tim J – by all means do so. I’ve made the case already for why Labour deserve to lose.

and you’ve mastered whining quite nicely.

heh. That pretty much sums up most right-whingers these days. As is also evident in the video above.

BBC Is a Left Wing Conspiracy!!! We Are Living in Zimbabwe!!

Well Tim J you’ve had plenty of practice since 97 and you’ve mastered whining quite nicely.

I’m sure you’ll pick it up pretty quickly.

Daniel

Yes I am conservative (small c) but I’m the one who is seeing things from both perspectives and who is making points by backing them up with reasoned arguments. I’m not the one making silly assertions about racism with no evidence to support it, I’m not the one who responds to an argument by sticking his tongue out like Sunny did and I’m not the one professing to feel contempt for the birther story, but continually tries to drag the debate back to that limited issue. Myopic? If that means visiting a liberal site and trying to engage in reasonable substance based argument, then “guilty” I say.

I have a great deal of respect for Sunny’s site and many of it’s commentators, hence my disappointment with Sunny’s response and as many of my left liberal commentators to my own blog will tell you, I’m not a strict down the line partisan who regurgitates Hannity and Beck or who engages in personal attacks on Democratic politicians. I disagree with Obama’s tax and spend policies, that doesn’t mean I can’t see why he got the levels of support he did.

I do not duck issues and I do not attack, I engage. If you don’t want to that’s fine, we’ll just move on.

Sunny

I think you’re mistaken about something. I’m not the kind of leftie who will bend over to appease right-wing nutjobs in the name of even-handedness. Please don’t EVER make that mistake. This is an avowedly partisan sight – you take it or you leave its political bias.

I never expected you to be non-partisan, just a grown up able to resort to reason and not petty name-calling and generalisations.

I won’t say why Obama should listen to Republicans, they are a weak bunch right now. But he should listen to conservatives. There are nearly twice as many of them in America than there are self-described liberals. and many of them are in his own party and are giving him trouble over both Cap and Trade and Obamacare. As to listening to Republicans, the stimulus wouldn’t have passed in the senate without the three Republican votes, and Cap and Trade wouldn’t have passed the house without Republican votes. Are those good enough reasons for you? But then what do I know, I’m a racist homophobic God-botherer. Which is strange, bearing in mind that I’m pro Gay Marriage unlike Obama, I don’t believe in God and a persons race is of no issue to me unlike a liberal who seem to obsess about a persons race seemingly constantly.

Daniel Hoffman-Gill re: comment 54,

Thank you for adding ‘Twonk’ and ‘Cretin’ to your lexicon.

As far as I am aware the site you liked to was updated on 1st Nov 2008 (during the campaign) and FactChecker.org are not the highest authority in the US regarding the authenticity of such documents. That I dare say would be the government office from where it originated – or the government per se.

Not wishing to cast aspertions at the staffers at FactChecker.org who inspected the certificate this will run until the original birth certificate is seen to be presented and inspected.

When Amir Kahn won the world title at the weekend he turned up for the weigh-in and was confirmed by the recognized authority to be the right weight to fight. There was no doubt whatsoever.

So if it’s good enough for Amir and the other guy to submit to this kind of verification (the other guy had to remove his pants to make the weight) why shouldn’t Barak Obama?

No, this isn’t a suggestion that Obama undress!

Apologies,

My last message referred to Daniel Hoffman-Gill’s comment 52, not 54.

This is utterly irrelevant, surely?

The largest economic crisis in 70 years…

A Swine Flu Pandemic…

An Iran possibly seeking Nuclear Weapons…

A Nuclear armed North Korea…

A coup in Honduras…

Billions still live in poverty…

Climate Change threatening to kill millions and displace 100s millions…

Reforming America’s broken healthcare system…

I would hate to see my elected representative waste one iota of his or her time on this birth certificate nonsense.

It’s a stupid law in the first place. The first president, George Washington wasn’t even American! America didn’t even exist so how could he? From the very outset a precedent was set.

Tim J: if you’re owt to go by duck, I doubt we’ll beat your whinging.

CC: sorry skipper but the ‘seeing things from both perspective’ thing nearly made me spit out me cherry coke. You may think you are but your writing says otherwise.

As for your other rantings, fair play to you, you can say it and feel it but don’t make it true.

Fictional Detective: YOU DON’T GET IT DO YOU! THIS BLOG POST IS ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE YOU! If this wasn’t such a waste of time it would be funny.

Factcheker is a trusted site, you are doing exactly what we’ve been talking about, saying everything is a conspiracy and that everything that has been presented is fake. You can’t debate with that because the truth for you is mallible and not fixed, when to anyone with a brain it is fixed because they understand evidence.

The original birth certificate has been inspected by the Republican governer and by the staff there, back when all this shit kicked off, you are fucking blind to the truth.

This is a non-issue kept alive by wing nuts who look at the evidence and go, it’s not real evidence, I mean seriously, it’s not a tenable position.

Seriously pal, fuck off now cuz you’re have nowt to your arguments and it is like arguing with an idiot.

Daniel Hoffman-Gill re: comment 62,

You don’t see that the more abusive you are – the more it appears you cannot recognize another opinion without attempting to demonize it..

I haven’t said that I do not believe Obama to be non-American, nor did I say that I believe that he was not born on US territory.

I merely said that this viewpoint will persist until the authenticity of his original vault copy birth certificate has been presented and verified by an authority (my suggestion being the issuer).

The reason I have carried on with this conversation is that I cannot see any reason why this matter should not be put to rest.

Kojak baby, the reason the abuse is hard to hold back is that you and others in this stupid birther movement have been presented with the evidence and you all just go:

“No, that’s not evidence.”

Bascially, you are being told it is Monday today and you are going:

“No, it is not.”

The matter should be put to rest because the birth certificate has been shown and verified, yet idiots refuse to accept it and one has to question not only why but how.

Hence why this whole argument is so fucking absurb…you get presented with evidence and you go, no that is not evidence.

Tell you what, burden of proof is on you pal, bring evidence that Obama was not born in the USA and then you have a point until then, there is no fucking evidence.

Daniel re: comment 64,

Yet again you confuse me with the ‘birthers’ merely because I recognize they exist and will go on about it until they are answered.

But at last we are getting somewhere.
You suggest the burdon of proof is upon me to prove he was not born the USA.

Although this is not a position I hold the answer is easy :-
Subpeona him to present the original vault copy birth certificate for the highest authority in the land, say the Supereme Court, to have verified.

Monica Lewinski was ordered to present her laundry for inspection no matter how embarrasing that was, so this should be straight forward and of no consequence.

Would you object to this?

Kojak, I refer you to comment 61. Why should he when there are bigger things on his plate?

Moreover, I am sure that the Supreme Court has enough to do too… I’m not sure this is one for the highest authority in the land, just because some conspiracy theorists have a strange idea.

Maybe a Governor would do. A Republican governor, just to ensure bipartisan support!

If only someone had thought of it before

Left Outside re: comment 66,

I agree Obama has got a huge workload, but how long would it take him to call his lawyer and say “Hi it’s your client President Obama here. Could you please release my Birth Certificate to ………. for inspection?”.
5 minutes max. He could do it whilst he’s on the loo.

As far as who should inspect it I wouldn’t mind it being a Govenor – as long as it is agreed in advance with the Republican and Democratic parties + Rush Limbaugh to keep him quiet.

“Could you please release my Birth Certificate to ………. for inspection?”

Sorry, but when the nutcases in the wingnut media tell you to jump, you DO NOT ask ‘how high’. You ignore them. This is simple common sense.

Neil re: comment 69,

If you look at my earlier comments you will see I’m discussing how this is crosssing over onto the more mainstream broadcasters (Lou Dobbs show on CBS). CBS have been supportive of Obama and cannot be considered right wing nutcases.

This isn’t about asked to jump how high it’s about providing the same level of information that alll previous Presidents have done.

Ask yourself the question – why should George W Bush provide his birth certificate but Obama not?

Refusal to do so only begs the question why not?

Yes, it begs the question alright.

won’t say why Obama should listen to Republicans, they are a weak bunch right now. But he should listen to conservatives. There are nearly twice as many of them in America than there are self-described liberals.

I’m not averse to listening to different sides of the debate CC – but I was talking about the Republicans. And even then, I’m not sure about listening to conservatives either since many of them believe in so much rubbish. For example, would you take advice from Spectator on climate change given how many mistakes were in that article linked above?

Lastly, your argument isn’t that convincing. There are more affiliated Democrats than there are Republicans. And he has more of a mandate from the former.

Neil re: comment 71,

Thank you for the link. It highlighted my use of the wrong term.

I should have written in comment 70:
‘Refusal to do so only raises the question, why not?’.

Kojak:

I ‘confuse’ you with birthers because you are one, as you sound like one and do not acknowledge the evidence at all. I mean even if you did acknowledge the evidence, which you don’t, the idea of connecting their partizan concerns with a ‘no smoke without fire’ leap of faith makes you a bit of a plum.

I asked for evidence Kojak, not you coming up with a 10 point plan, show me evidence that the birth certificate verified by everyone as his birth certificate is not real and we’ll talk turkey, until then, don’t comment until you’ve evidence.

And you seem to miss the point Left Outside had you on, it has already been verified by a GOP Governor.

YOU DON’T GET IT YOU MORON!

Sunny

Yes there are many more registered Democrats than Republicans, just as there were when Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan were elected. Not listening to the conservative inclined didn’t do much for the Democrats then. Blue Dog Democrats have virtually scuppered cap and trade and are for now, preventing Obamacare from being released from comittee in the senate, how is ignoring fiscally conservative minded Democrats a good thing?

And as for global warming, if science is so important to you, why are you supporting a President who supports Cap and Trade legislation that will have no (or very little effect) on climate change as the E.P.A. report? Obama’s cap and trade has nothing to do with climate change, and everything to do with reshaping Americas economic system.

I think it is important to note that America is a conservative nation across the board but that is a truism, not sure what that has to do with birthers but still…

would you take advice from Spectator on climate change given how many mistakes were in that article linked above?

Sunny, wouldn’t it depend on who was writing the article? It wasn’t an editorial, and therefore isn’t the ‘view’ of the Spectator as such. If next week they had an article putting the case for anthropogenic global warming, would you dismiss it because the previous week they had an article arguing the opposite?

Quality of journalism is low there though isn’t it?

It reminds me of The Scum’s science pages…

“would you dismiss it because the previous week they had an article arguing the opposite?”

Would you accept it, for the same reason?

If next week they had an article putting the case for anthropogenic global warming, would you dismiss it because the previous week they had an article arguing the opposite?

Given they’re published this crap – and made it front page – it’s unlikely I’ll take them seriously anyway, except to point out how crap they remain.

And as for global warming, if science is so important to you, why are you supporting a President who supports Cap and Trade legislation that will have no (or very little effect) on climate change as the E.P.A. report?

Obviously I’d much rather he went much further. But such is the America political system – there are a whole bunch of blue dogs funded by energy companies that make things worse. I’d simply support any initiative to get rid of those blue dogs and replace them with proper Democrats.

You link to Moonbat to refute Plimer…as an aside I believe Plimer has offered to fly over from Oz (at own expense) to debate Moonbat if he will agree to it.
That would be worth going to!

Would you accept it, for the same reason?

No, I’d read it and then decide whether I agreed with it or not. The Speccie (like the New Statesman) publishes all sorts of things, some rubbish some not, and the quality of the piece will depend on its author and not on the magazine. Playboy used to publish articles by Norman Mailer, William F Buckley and Gore Vidal. Dismissing them because the magazine is also full of tits seems a little silly.

The Spectator is no Playboy.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill re: comment 74,

You asked me what I would do and I told you. You obviously didn’t like the answer, if you bothered to read it, and have fallen back on making insults.

Well, let’s just dig our heads in the sand, pretend this isn’t an issue because some people wish to take advantage of it.

Were you advising Michael Martin on the merits of redacting, perhaps?

I didn’t ask you for what you’d do, I asked you for evidence that the birth certificate shown and verified by all sources as his brith certifcate, isn’t his birth certificate.

Burden of proof is yours.

@85 – Proof? PROOF? What’s that? Even if Obama produces the original birth certificate, it will turn out to be a forgery.

This is why it is wise to ignore such hectoring.

(Incidentally, do you think any of these assorted truthers/birthers/deniers are aware of the concept of the McGuffin?)