Article:: How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism http://bit.ly/31u3XQ

Another plug for this (now on LibCon). Everybody should read it: http://bit.ly/31u3XQ

I think this needs to read by everyone… RT @libcon: Article:: How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism http://bit.ly/31u3XQ

It never ceases to amaze me how much the left are blind to the reason behind the sucess of the BNP. They lash out at everyone, the press, the Tories, next doors cat, anyone but the themselves.

Who voted for the BNP in the Euro elections? The evidence is clear cut. Their strongest vote came in labour heartlands. In Tory heartlands the disaffected vote goes to UKIP. (By dissaffected I mean dissaffected by Lab/Lib/Con)

So why is the left so blind. Well its all about ideology. The left used to have it in spades. Indeed I am sure there are hundreds, nay thousands of earnest papers out there written about the social and policitical implications of the spade on the working classes in a pre markist-leninist society. But thats all gone now. The left has no recognisable coherent ideology, not even on spades.

This matters, because the left has always defined itself in idelogical terms. The right (by which I mean the Tory party) has never really done this. Certain ideas have from time to time taken hold for a while, and certian values are by common consent acknowledged as good. But pragmatism has been the guiding principle of the Tory party that has kept it going longer than any other political party. When the Tories hit the rocks, after a bout of infighting, they pull themselves together and focus on their shared common goal. Winning electiions. They are very good at it.

The Labour party on the other hand have always revelled in arguing about their ideology. The finer points of Leninist-Spadeism vs. Trotskyist-Pitchforkism has kept many a student labour activist up way past bed time.

The modern labour Party ( and I say labour because that is the vehicle by which the left obtains power historically in the UK) howver has lost its ideology almost completely. The roots of labour policy since 1997 derive from Victorian social concience politics, not socialism. I am sure Titus Salt would have voted New Labour, indeed probably have donated to it. The problem with it, is that it contains no ideological compass (moral compasses are just so unreliable, dont you agree?), and so is subject to the whim and fancy of whoever is up next.

And those that do cling to their socialist princples, are either aging or marginalised. Thats why the current infighting in labour is so muted and the rebellions against GB so ineffectual. They can’t agree on anything to argue or unite around.

There is one exception. Every leftie knows that the greatest evil that exists is a fascist evil. It is the only task they can all agree on. They also all “know” that in defining themselves in opposition to it, it is clear that no one who is truely left can be fascist.

And that’s where they are wholey mistaken. Go ahead and read BNP policies. You wont find free market economics there. You will find command and control and you will find national ownership. If you are a disaffected Labour voter, who actually likes the idea of the local steel mill being owned by the state, so your job is secured, and are feeling the pinch, whist all those ‘others’ next door seem to be getting all the help, then it is a short step to voting BNP.

Only some make the leap, most dont think like this or act like it. Equally many vote Green. Many vote Tory, many give up on parties all together. But it is the BNP vote that irks. There must be a reason why they succeed, and since we the left are the enemies of the BNP, it cant be us, so it must be some other.

But the reality is the BNP succeed because the ideological ground that has been vacated by the Labour party is being invaded by those around them; The Greens, the Libs, the Tories and the BNP. But the BNP is the only one the Left seem to be able to see coming. Unable to cope with the modern world, they are retreating and fondly fantasising that they are fighting the good fight of the 1930s.

Instead of shooting the messengers, The Left would be far better advised to wake up, smell the ethically farmed organic double tall skinny latte, and start remaking an ideology for itself. Find a message that people want to vote for, and stop blaming everyone else for their ills.

‘I’ve left aside the ones about terrorist plots, because you can’t really blame papers for reporting these.’

Well, quite, but terrorist plots obviously aren’t as important as stories about the victimisation of poor Anjem Choudhary.

‘So there you have it. Tabloid distortion used directly to recruit for extreme right-wing activity.’

I think you might want to look up the word ‘directly’.

Liberal Conspiracy » How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism- But does tabloid coverage cause people to vot… http://bit.ly/WAv6N

Why Manchester or Leeds?????????????????

EDL claim that they are against extremists Muslims only i.e. Anjum Choudry Al Muhajerun and the 8 or so looneys who protested in Luton. The fact is these people and this tiny group who number less than 50 nationally are so hated by the UK Muslim community that they have been banned from every mosque and have been chased and beaten up literally since the 1990’s especially in the North and they will never get support from UK Muslims (that’s why you never see them up North but that’s another whole topic altogether TJs know what im talking about). It’s a shame that this has not been publicised and very few people except Muslims are aware of this. People really need to know that the UK Muslim community have been fighting this tiny vociferous Minority for the last 15 years! Out of over a thousand mosques in the country they were only able to preach at one i.e. Finsbury Park Mosque and that was only after they physically beat up the trustees and took it over. Thankfully the mosque is now back with the trustees after successful legal action. That’s why they are always on the streets or talking to the media who lap it all up, Anjum Choudry is not even a trained qualified Islamic Scholar in fact he did law at uni before he became a looney.

Many Muslims believe they are MI5 agents used as a honey trap or agent provocateurs. Ask yourselves this, why is Anjum Choudry never arrested??? Why do high profile MPs call for action against them and then nothing happens and you never hear about it ever again? Why do they only pop up at the most opportune moments cause extreme offence and then disappear again? Why are they on first name terms with the media/journalists? Why are they portrayed as if they have support from and speak for the UK Muslim community? This whole outfit stinks!

Therefore the EDL have no reason to march but they use Anjum Choudry and his band of loons as an excuse for race hatred and to attack Muslims just listen to their chants and posts on the net which consists of P*** and N***** in reference to the huge numbers of Black Caribbean youths who joined the anti-Nazi protest in Birmingham and Harrow. The EDL are nothing more than street fighters for fascist political forces i.e. Black shirts or the brown-shirted Stormtroopers. For all those who support the EDL/BNP I just say be careful what you wish for!

With a heavy heart, I link to this.

Chaudhury does speak for a strand of British Muslim opinion. It may be worth recalling that almost all British Muslims are at most three generations away from (i.e. within living memory of) ancestors who lived in countries which Islam conquered. From there to supposing that you can only practice Islam in a country which Muslims have conquered – as Chaudhury does – is not really all that big a step.

‘Many Muslims believe they are MI5 agents used as a honey trap or agent provocateurs. Ask yourselves this, why is Anjum Choudry never arrested’

Oh, purleeze! It’s bad enough that the press are being blamed for the rise of the BNP without claptrap about MI5 involvement and agent provocateurs.

The reason Choudhary gets so much publicity is that while he might not get much support among Muslims he does speak for a group of Muslims who are everything the press accuses them of being, i.e. religious psychopaths.

Anyone else know what Dontmindme is twittering on about?

And the Right not ideological?! Where has this person been these last thirty years?

Why are they wearing balaclavas is it cold.

7 BenM

I have never twittered. Wittered yes, but never twittered.

And if you had read it properly you will have noted that the Tories (for it was they I was referring too) do have periodic bouts of attachment to one set of ideas or another, but in the longer term (250 years, not 30), there is no fundmental ideological basis that defines the party of the kind that used to root the Labour party in socialism.

Joh Cruddas, understands the ideological problem facing the left very well. It is he that posed the question ‘What is the point of Labour?’.

My point being that whilst that question hangs unanswered in the air, the Left spends its time fretting about the rise of the BNP, and blaming everyone but itself for it.

Liberal Conspiracy » How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism: This post was mentioned on Twitter by Liberal C.. http://bit.ly/3DnQkm

Liberal/capitalist democracies have quite a history of allowing racists/right wing ideas to prevail in times of economic downturns, I have said this before, the BNP becomes the friend of the state by distracting attention away from the real problems, which are inherrent in capitalism itself. Of course the press (all of the press) will report scare-mongering stories; the right-wing press will do so to maintain the impetus and other press/news agencies will print to compete.
9
Unfortunately, the left-wing will then respond as the majority of ethnic groups are working-class and consequently the whole media focuses away from the real problems
The conservatives also have a long history of supporting the prevailing zietgeist,. hence they have no firm ideological basis, they are popularists as long as it suits the dominant economic system

one is reporting the results of a right wing think-tank as absolute truth

http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcs87.php

If you are saying that the research on which the above press release was based is untrue you need to show where that is so.

If, on the other hand, you are saying you disagree with the conclusion that there is a strong element of Muslim teaching and philosophy that is fundamentally at odds with the culture of a modern liberal democracy, you would be wrong.

Just look at the quotations in the report- Muslim children are being widely taught from a young age to despise secular Western values.

So, we have a situation where a significant proportion of an immigrant community do not want to properly integrate into the host country and, in fact, demonstrate hostility towards the values of the indigenous population. Furthermore elements within that community plot to indiscriminately kill and maim UK citizens. Some also talk of overturning the state and recreating it in their own image.

In these circumstances, is it really so surprising that some of the indigenous population are resistant and look to confront? Indeed I would suggest there is a strong moral argument that they have a legitimate right to do so.

As an aside, I’ve just noticed that much of the above applies equally well to Afghanistan.

With a heavy heart, I link to this.

Chaudhury does speak for a strand of British Muslim opinion.

That’s rubbish. Choudhary has been barred from nearly every single mosque in the country, which is why his band if idiots have to hire local townhalls for their recruiting meetings.

I’m sure the sharia law opinion polls have been dealt with elsewhere, but I’ll briefly do it again. Wanting sharia also includes stuff like eating halal meat and the ability to have a Muslim wedding and a Muslim divorce (in addition to a legal one) in a country. So a question like that is highly misleading because what Muslims think about general sharia in the context of the uk can be very different to what non-Muslims think of sharia. And therefore these polls start alarming people who think they are like Anjem Choudhary.

Choudhary has a couple of hundred supporters maybe. In terms of danger he doesn’t even come close to white extremism in the UK.

dontmindme: And that’s where they are wholey mistaken. Go ahead and read BNP policies. You wont find free market economics there. You will find command and control and you will find national ownership. If you are a disaffected Labour voter, who actually likes the idea of the local steel mill being owned by the state, so your job is secured, and are feeling the pinch, whist all those ‘others’ next door seem to be getting all the help, then it is a short step to voting BNP.

Oh right – and now you’re telling us BNP voters actually sit there and read BNP policy. I suppose that little fact that its a party for the ‘indigenous’ people then escapes them. You know, why should such a little thing matter?

And lastly, most BNP voters are not former Labour sympathisers. That myth was also destroyed in the big Yougov/Channel 4 poll.

This rubbish idea that people are jumping ship from Labour to the BNP because the former has lost its ideology, or isn’t anti-immigration enough, is frankly crap. If they wanted someone constantly banging on about immigration they could take the Tories or UKIP.

[12] I’m glad to hear he’s been banned.

I take with your point about Sharia – that British Muslims want a kind of Euro-Islam in which Sharia is reduced to a civil code only – and (since you don’t refer to it) I take it, Sunny, you agree with the one I made in the rest of my earlier post.

Liberal Conspiracy » How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism: This post was mentioned on Twitter by Liberal C.. http://bit.ly/b4oNE

RT @libcon: How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism http://bit.ly/31u3XQ

Sunny

BNP voters (I imagine, I know only one) are as likely to read the policy documents than Labour ones, or Tory ones. That does not mean they are necessarily ignorant of the parties general direction of travel. I imagine a tiny fraction of people who voted in the last general election, actually read party policy documents. I also imagine that the overwhelming majority of those same voters had a good general idea that Labour prefers higher tax and spend than the Tories do. And slogans like British jobs For British workers tell their own story about who is afraid of what, and the paucity of ideology behind them.

Lastly I pointed out that the BNP actually did best in Labour heartland areas in real elections. Citing opinion polls is second order evidence to that obtained by actual voting.

#12
This rubbish idea that people are jumping ship from Labour to the BNP because the former has lost its ideology, or isn’t anti-immigration enough, is frankly crap. If they wanted someone constantly banging on about immigration they could take the Tories or UKIP.

Exactly. If anything, in the last 10 years Labour has relentlessly courted the tabloids as regards immigration. Constantly. The result is that many Labour voters were indeed alienated. But for the opposite reason.

The BNP may have done alright in Labour’s heartlands at the Euro elections, but you’ll find that each party did, from the Greens to Bob Crow’s to UKIP to the Tories. Simply because Labour’s share of the vote is collapsing.

@15 also, it’s clear from looking at detailed opinion surveys that the BNP vote is made up predominantly of working class people who identify as right-wing – the group that kept Mrs Thatcher in power. Traditional working class Labour supporters just aren’t voting at all.

Lots more comments than I get over at my place here! Here goes:

@Dontmindme:
What a lot of wasted effort in your first comment. This post is about the EDL using misleading tabloid articles in their recruitment video.

@Shatterface:
“Well, quite, but terrorist plots obviously aren’t as important as stories about the victimisation of poor Anjem Choudhary.”

Who said anything about Anjem Choudhary being victimised?

“I think you might want to look up the word ‘directly’.”

Nope – that would be you if you think cutting and pasting screenshots of articles into recruitment material isn’t using them directly. Try looking for ‘condescending’ while you’re at it.

@pagar:
“If you are saying that the research on which the above press release was based is untrue you need to show where that is so. ”

Lucky I’m not saying that then. I haven’t even looked properly at the data. I’m saying that the fact that it is the product of a right wing think tank is relevant information that would put a different slant on the headline.

5cc

Look again at your articles first sentence. I agree with you. It is. I was commenting on that. But perhaps you are right. It was a lot of wasted effort if you did not understand that.

‘Who said anything about Anjem Choudhary being victimised?’

Two of the articles you cite are about Choudhary. You seem to think he’s being singled out because he’s a Muslim.

‘Lucky I’m not saying that then. I haven’t even looked properly at the data.’

Well, that answers a lot.

I haven’t even looked properly at the data. I’m saying that the fact that it is the product of a right wing think tank is relevant information that would put a different slant on the headline.

It makes your position more robust if you actually read something before impugning its veracity!!!

And what is the newspaper to do- add the codicil that chinese five crackers believes Civitas to be right wing after their headline?

How could they possibly have known?

Also I should be grateful if you would address my more substantive point about the moral right of the English working class to confront the fundamentalist and illiberal strands of Islam and the duty of Muslims to integrate more fully into a secular society.

@19, get a clue: the piece says that Choudhary is a prick and a hate preacher. The point is that he’s being used to slur other Muslims, not that he’s being slurred because he’s a Muslim.

@20, claims from a partisan group shouldn’t be reproduced as facts in article headlines. Ever. Irrespective of the group. That kind of piece should always be reported as “Report from XXX group says that”. This is basic journalistic integrity.

On your other point: yes, if the working class falsely believe that Muslims hate their values and are planning to take over, it’s not surprising that they’d object to Muslims. The main reason people hold that false belief is due to the lies of tabloids and right-wing organisations like Civitas… which is where we came in.

This morning I googled around to find out about a story The Sun ran last year about a Muslim bus driver who out of the blue stopped the bus, got the passengers to get off and said he had to pray.

Now, it turns out that the story was totally fabricated. The Sun printed a very small apology (at odds with the echo given to the story in the first place), but too late. By then the internet was plastered with websites spurting anger at the bus driver. One for instance is ‘jihaad watch’ (just to give you an idea of the wider perspective of who draws inspiration from those stories).

However, very very few websites were bothered to later rectify it and report that the Sun had to pay a £30,000 damage for making the story up from scratch.

The examples are countless. I caught another porky earlier this morning as the Daily Mail quoted completely wrong figures to big up the negative effects of immigration. I wonder, how many readers then went on to double check those figures? I hope I’m wrong, but chances are 99,9% of those who read it took it in without questioning.

The tabloids shout, stir shit, sometimes they fabricate completely, and set in motion a process. It’s highly highly poisonous.

That kind of piece should always be reported as “Report from XXX group says that”.

I accept the headline was attention seeking (what headline isn’t?) but if you read the article you will see that the report was correctly attributed just as you demand. It also quoted a rebuttal of the findings from the Association of Muslim Schools UK and comments from moderate Muslim groups.

All in all a fair piece of journalism.

If you read the report on which the article is based you would certainly better understand the questions that fundamentalist extremism pose to the Muslim community and to our society at large.

These are questions that will not be answered by knee jerk responses based on political perspective.

donmindme @ 14. Wow, you really sound contradictory

And slogans like British jobs For British workers tell their own story about who is afraid of what, and the paucity of ideology behind them.

I thought your point was that Labour didn’t go into BNP territory enough. Now you’re criticising them for it?

Lastly I pointed out that the BNP actually did best in Labour heartland areas in real elections. Citing opinion polls is second order evidence to that obtained by actual voting.

They took Tory votes in areas where the dominant voices have always been Labour. Your interpretation of voting patterns is way off.

@Shatterface:
“Two of the articles you cite are about Choudhary. You seem to think he’s being singled out because he’s a Muslim.”

Three of the headlines I cite are about Choudhary. I also call him a prick, which is the sort of thing I’d have thought would prevent people deciding what I wrote was about ‘the victimisation of poor Anjem Choudhary’.

I don’t think he’s being singled out (by the papers) because he’s a Muslim. I think that merely using the word ‘Muslim’ on its own to describe him is unfair toward Muslims as a whole, and I suggest in the post that ‘hate preacher’ is a better description. I also say there’s nothing wrong with merely reporting what he said, which is something else I would have thought would have prevented anyone from thinking i feel he’s unfairly singled out, but there you go.

@pagar
“It makes your position more robust if you actually read something before impugning its veracity!!!”

I haven’t impugned its veracity. I’ve said that should be flagged as being from a think tank.

“And what is the newspaper to do- add the codicil that chinese five crackers believes Civitas to be right wing after their headline?”

Nope. Starting with ‘Think tank:’, ending with ‘says think tank’ or putting quotation marks around the claim would be enough. You know, like papers usually do.

“Also I should be grateful if you would address my more substantive point about the moral right of the English working class to confront the fundamentalist and illiberal strands of Islam and the duty of Muslims to integrate more fully into a secular society.”

Would you now? I’d be grateful if you’d address the substantive point of my original post, which is that the tabloids misleading headlines and overwhelmingly negative reporting about Muslims is being used by far-right troublemakers in their recruitment material, and that this is a bad thing.

As for your points – I don’t see why the ‘English working class’ should be singled out to ‘confront’ fundamentalist and illiberal strands of Islam – and I’d need to know what you mean by ‘confront’ before I commented further. Your second point is wooly, and I don’t know what you mean by ‘integrating more fully into a secular society’. What would doing that actually entail?

Do either of you have anything to say about the effects of negative and misleading media coverage of Muslims on extremists?

@pagar:

“but if you read the article you will see that the report was correctly attributed just as you demand”

Troule is, only the headline is properly legible in the screenshot of the article used by the EDL. The headline certainly got their attention. Might get the attention of potential recruits, too.

Sunny

No I did not say that Labour should move into BNP territory – where did I say that???

What I said for the hard of reading, was that because the Labour Party has lost all sense of purpose, it simply no longer knows what it stands for, means it is rather hard to persuade the electorate, especially its own supporters what it stands for. This means it is easier for the Tories, the Greens and yes the BNP to invade Labour territory.

Labour, I said, and the left in general needs to find a message it can sell so it can regain what it is losing and will lose come the next general election. I also said that it is losing on all sides, but can only unite around the BNP threat

On the Heartland point, a also said the left are blind to their own failings, and blame everyone but themselves for the rise of the BNP. You make my point admirably with what seems to be your flat refusal to see the very obvious. Just take of the rose tinted specs for a minute any you will see that it is Labour weakness that has given space for the BNP

Reading: How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism: contribution by 5 Chinese Crackers The relationship.. http://bit.ly/3DnQkm

If you’re saying that Labour should stick to traditional Labour values of not tolerating racism, loooking after working class communities (of all colour), and not giving into right-wing talking points about how the country is being ‘swamped’, then yes I agree with you dontmindme. but it’s getting quite hard to figure out what you’re saying specifically.

Mike: From there to supposing that you can only practice Islam in a country which Muslims have conquered – as Chaudhury does – is not really all that big a step.

No, I can’t say this thought runs through the minds of (religious) Muslims I know. People want the right to practice their religion – like Sikhs and Hindus. The fact that religious extremists of the Sikh, Hindu, Jewish and Christian variety also exist seems to have escaped everyone.

Sunny

Well at least it would be a message with some sort of coherency. But defining everything for a standpoint of race is a mistake IMHO. If you do that then to are saying to people that the BNP is a serious alternative, because race is the only issue that matters, and the BNP represent the alternative point of view. Once again the one message you can articulate is one of opposition to the BNP. Even when you did move away from race for a moment, you could not help but say “(of all colour)”. You know what look at the sentence again. It works better without the bracketed extra.

Clearly I am not expressing myself properly. Let me simplify. Decide what you stand for, stand for it or face continuing to lose to all parties including the BNP.

[28] Good to hear. I was going by what I was told by someone I knew well, who was forever being told on his return visits to Pakistan that he wasn’t a proper Muslim because he lived here.

5cc

Some of the data you haven’t looked at :

The Jameah Girls Academy in Leicester has a direct link to a fatwa site, Darul Iftaa, run by the school’s own patron, Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari. He places severe restrictions on male doctors treating female patients; he rules that women may not swim (even for medical reasons) where a male lifeguard is present, or where there are non-Muslim women; using tampons is ‘disliked’ (makruh-a classification in shari’a law); a woman may not travel beyond 48 miles without her husband or a close relative accompanying her; a female is encouraged to remain within the confines of her house as much as possible; polygamy is permissible. If anyone were to ridicule polygamy, he would become an unbeliever; it is a grave sin for a woman to refuse sex to her husband; it is forbidden to have close, intimate relations with or have love for non-Muslims; Muslims are not to sit, eat, live or mingle with them; the legal punishment for adultery is stoning.

How do we reconcile teaching primary school children the above in a liberal democracy where womens rights are enshrined in legislation?

It’s a tricky one but it’s about time we had an answer.

Do we value the principles of liberalism and equality or not?

@pagar:

I’m having a deeper look at the Civitas report now. Of course I agree that the quotes from it are abhorrent – but even the Express admits the report is about a minority of Muslim schools. Do you honestly believe they, and the report, warrant the blanket statement ‘MUSLIM SCHOOLS BAN OUR CULTURE’? as a front page headline in a national newspaper?

31 Isn’t liberalism also about choice?, if so, then we have to accept that people can choose to reject choice.
Yes, these are children being subjected to a form of indoctrination, but surely, we indoctrinate children into the principles of liberalism and equality, what is the difference?
If we do not accept cultural difference, then we too become illiberal.
.

@33 Are you serious? “people can choose to reject choice.” At what point do children subjected to a “religious education” (and I include all religions in this) choose to reject choice? They don’t, they’re children, it’s imposed upon them. A decent secular education should provide them with (among other things) the intellectual equipment required to make informed choices when they are old enough to do so. An education which assumes as unquestionable a set of religious dogma tends to diminish the capacity for informed decision making. Also, do you really think that all women living in the conditions described are exercising their right to choose to do so?

That’s the sensible argument. The more obvious one would be “what is wrong with you, how can you suggest that anyone who espouses the views described in pagar’s post should be allowed to have anything to do with education?”

Do you honestly believe they, and the report, warrant the blanket statement ‘MUSLIM SCHOOLS BAN OUR CULTURE’? as a front page headline in a national newspaper?

No I don’t. I’ve already said the headline was attention seeking and unwarranted. But there is a problem and if we don’t address it we will store up a lot of pain for the future.

If we do not accept cultural difference, then we too become illiberal.

Except that religous fundamentalism and liberalism are at opposite ends of the philosophical spectrum. Whilst the liberal accepts that others have a right to believe what they want to and live their lives as they wish, the fundamentalist believes that other patterns of belief are evil- because Allah says so in the Koran. The logical extension of fundamentalist belief is that it is therefore acceptable, indeed some would say mandatory, to try to eradicate such evil.

Of course liberalism means that people should be free to reject choice if they wish- but in relation to themselves, not others. Muslim males, for example, should not be able to compel their wives to dress according to their edict yet they are teaching their children, with Ofsted’s approval, that such compulsion is legitimate.

Having said all of that, as long as Western governments continue to do things like invading Iraq and Afghanistan, we have not got much of a claim on the moral high ground.

RT @libcon: Article:: How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism http://bit.ly/31u3XQ

@Jb(33)

” 31 Isn’t liberalism also about choice ?if so then we have to accept that people can choose to reject choice.
Yes these are children being subjected to form of indoctrination,but surely,we indoctrinate children into the principles of liberalism and equality,what is the difference?
If we do not accept cultural difference,then we too become illiberal.”

Looks like you have just encapsuled in your question the entire essence of the term “Liberal Fascism”.What a jewel.

“Isn’t liberalism about choice? ”
Yes we can tolerate any form of fascism unless it comes dressed in the clearly identifiable costume of a Nazi uniform and a little moustache. A simple easily understood symbol.

“But surely we indoctrinate children into the principles of liberalism and equality,what is the difference.`?

It is the Left inspired cultural indentity crisis of western civilization that gets Non-Lefties doing cart-wheels and flames coming out of their ears when they see “cultural relatavism” manifest itself in the assumption´you describe above.Obssesive pedantry.

“What is the difference”—–The answer is simple….good indoctrination vérsus bad indoctrination. Yes thats right,sometimes you just have to sling of that strait jacket of post -colonial,Imperialistic,progressive guilt and make a lighting intuitive “discriminatory judgement”–as in–i prefer ice cream to shit,and to hell with anybody who thinks your being non-multicultural.

Not that I’m too fond of science fiction,but your question dregged up a vague memory of the science fiction author Isaac Asimov and his fictional “Five Laws of Robotics”and I use this analogy purely as a tool to get an idea across and not as a personal insult(honest)

Law One: A robot must not injure a human being or through inaction,allow a human being to come to harm.

Law Two; A robot must obey any command given to it by human beings,except where such orders would conflict with the first law

Law Three: A robot must protect its own existence as long as it doesn’t conflict with the First and Second Laws.

The robot did I believe eventually go “gagga-loop-de-loo” because there was an inherent inbuilt conflict just waiting to happen,An unforseen situation. Lets say–like ones whole ideology being built around anti-Facism but not with quiet the same commitment as anti-Totalitarianism as if they where not the same thing.
Computer chips get over loaded and sparks fly from´robots head.

Law Five,by the way was–” A robot must know it is a robot”

Decide what you stand for, stand for it or face continuing to lose to all parties including the BNP.

I’ll agree with that.

Mike – happens to some, including Indians. It’s usually more cultural than religious, but it’s more to do with multiple identities than adherence to Islam or sharia law.

No I don’t. I’ve already said the headline was attention seeking and unwarranted. But there is a problem and if we don’t address it we will store up a lot of pain for the future.

Pagar – you seem to say that misrepresentation is ok as long as it feeds into your preconceived views.

How do we reconcile teaching primary school children the above in a liberal democracy where womens rights are enshrined in legislation?

You haven’t shown that what’s said on the fatwa site is being taught in schools. It usually isn’t. America has more crazies teaching all sorts of religious stuff at private schools – yet it seems to hold together, no?

Liberal Conspiracy » How the tabloids feed right-wing extremism http://ow.ly/q6WL

34 & 36
Firstly, children do not have innate principles/beliefs, they are socialized into those by nurture, to believe that liberalism is some kind of universal and objective truth is fascist, the kind of argument you are proposing is cultural imperialism at its’ worst. Indeed, it is this type of view which has created a massive backlash against the west.
Secondly, we are liberal because our laws reflect liberal ideals, and, in theory, at least, all those within the boundaries of the nation-state, are treated equally, liberalism does not insist that my opinion/religious belief/culture are the same as yours’
36 – As you have noted in your robot example, liberalism throws-up contradictions, which we have to accept. For example, if you believe in free-speach you have to accept that there are some people who will express racist/sexist/homophobic views, when you attempt to ban this you have become illiberal.

Sunny

You haven’t shown that what’s said on the fatwa site is being taught in schools.

In fairness, I don’t know that it is and unless I can somehow pass myself off as a 10 year old Muslim girl I never will.

However in response to the Civitas research Maajid Nawaz of the Quilliam Foundation, said: “If this is what is written on websites, I dread to think what is going on in classrooms.”

http://www.madani-school.co.uk/welcome.php?on=welcome&sub=comm

The management committee of the above school state that

Having taken the decision to live here some of this exposure (to Western values) cannot be controlled, but we do have the choice to decide who and which system will educate our children. If we oppose the lifestyle of the west then it does not seem sensible that the teachers and the system, which represents that lifestyle, should educate our children.

Whatever they intend to teach their pupils about women’s rights in the Madani school this does not sound to me like an educational agenda preparing Muslims to integrate more fully into mainstream UK society.

And if the pain I mentioned above is to be avoided, some more integration is essential.

@39 it’s far more likely that the websites are more extreme than the teaching than the other way round. See also: the lessons taught in British Catholic schools vs the pronouncements of 3rd world Catholic clergy…

[37] Sure. My difficulty, looking at Islam from the outside, is to know what’s cultural and what’s religious. Or rather, to know what sense to make of that distinction – what’s religious for Ali may be cultural for Maryam and so on and so on… And I regard myself as a student of religion (I occasionally stand in pulpits, even).

FWIW I think that culture and religion are indissolubly linked, that changes in religious practice have cultural origins and they then go on to change the culture in their turn. An obvious example from the history of Christianity: for the first 300 years or so, the ultimate aspiration for Christians was to be martyred for their faith. Then the emperor Constantine realised that the army would fight better if it were Christian and suddenly martyrdom became impossible. It was a major psychic shock for Christians and an alternative renunciatory practice had to be substituted – hence the cult of virginity and sexual abstinence (including intolerance of divorce) which has no counterpart in the other two Abrahamic monotheisms.

I leave it to Sunny (if you wish) – or preferably, Muslim conspirators – to find comparable examples in the history of Islam.

pagar:

While there is a valid argument to be made against state funding of religious schools, and about the divisions they create in society – it is a giant leap from there to the articles which 5cc is attacking here (and which you appear to be trying to defend), which clearly seek to implant in people’s minds the idea that Muslim schools are some kind of fifth columnist holy war factories, meekly tolerated by appeasing politicians quaking in fear of being labelled ‘racist’ by Brussels.

However much the Mail and Express may disown the BNP or EDL or any such group, I think if anyone actually believed their picture of Muslims in the UK was accurate, they’d be very much prone to voting for extremists and at best being pretty apathetic about anti-Muslim mob violence.

@Dontmindme

Look, you may not like to admit it, but the Right sure as hell is ideological. And damagingly so, given the unrepresentative support they get from the British national press. That rightwing ideology is one of the main reasons why we are in such an economic mess right now.

And the tabloids are the biggest single reason for the hopefully short term spurt in support for the knuckleheaded BNP – with Labour’s cowardice in not facing down that press – despite the ample opportunities available to it – a close second.

Accept the fact too that the BNP is a far RIGHT Party. Every media outlet thankfully calls them such.

@jb 38

“Firstly , children do not have innate principles / beliefs. They are socialized into those
ny nurture.”

Yes,but being children have an “innate ” response to being raised in a repressive,authoritarian enviroment. There is such a thing as human nature.As in ,violence breeds violence–whether physical or phychological.Oppression breeds oppression.

” To believe that liberalism is some kind of universal and objective truth is fascist”

This sounds like guilt ,shame,civilizational identity crisis and tolerance of the intolerant.
In the end,its´Liberal values in competition with less liberal values,for the same space.
Its warfare ,with winners and loosers. Islam will be the winner if it is more successful at promoting its ideology. Islam and other totalitarian ideologies are built on the assumption that…..to use your own words—” are universal and objective truths”.
Does it matter how many angels can dance on the end of a pin. Which is more beneficial to the general well being of society.Are you unsure? How can we defend liberalism with cultural and moral relatavism. You can’t always have your cake and eat it. There comes a point where giving space to certain other cultural norms will in the end mean denying ones own.

” the kind of argument you are proposing is cultural imperialism at its worst ”

What? In our own country?How do you think liberal ideology spread from one western nation to the other. It was cultural imperialism. There are many culturally imperial ideologies roaming the planet. Just exactly how untainted,pure and saintly must we be before we are given a permission slip to appreciate and feel pride in the good things that western civilization has accompished?And do all we can to protect these hard won freedoms.

“it is this type of view which has created a massive backlash against the west”

If you’re reffering to Iraq and Afghanistan. We have no buisness there and should get out.
But if being intolerant of illiberal values here at home is “creating a massive backlash against the west ” …….if we do not know what we stand for,what is there to integrate or assimilate into?Unless of course you think such requirements are also “Fascistic”.

“As you noted in your robot example,liberalism throws-up contradictions which we have to accept”.
I suppose liberalism in its present form is,from a historical perspective,a fairly recent phenomena,and far from being the unassailable fortress that many believe it is,most probably balances on a knife edge and requires constant villigance and effort to defend,be´cause there is always some vested interest percieving it as a major inconvieniance to its agenda.
The contradictions inherent in modern leftist liberalism contain the seeds to the destruction of the societies that support it. Somewhat like sitting on a branch while sawing through it. Eventually it becomes the very Fascism it finds so abhorent.It does this by undemining,brick by brick, the glué of indigenous tribalism and the shared common values that bind it together in the interests of placing no belief system on a higher moral plain than any other.,Lest one be accused of cultural imperialism or fascism. And will not brook dissent from this view.

@42

I think if anyone actually believed their picture of Muslims in the UK was accurate, they’d be very much prone to voting for extremists

I agree. That is a major problem and it is the reason that accuracy is crucial in this area.

Accepting that there is a broad spectrum of Muslim opinion from moderate to extreme I have no idea how the Muslim population is distributed on this spectrum and I’m not sure anyone definitively has.

What is clear is that there is a fundamental dichotomy between the culture of those who strictly follow the teachings of Islam and the culture of the mainly secular society in the UK. If this cultural dichotomy is not going to engender conflict, it is vital that moderate Muslims make every effort to integrate into UK society and reject and denounce the extremists. I am happy to accept Sunny’s assurance that they do so but this message needs to be got across more forcefully.

Islamic schools teaching children that they should view women as second class citizens and that they should not play games or listen to music is not helpful to the integration of the Muslim community. Whilst such teaching may be at the margin, it is also not helpful to deny that it is happening in the face of clear evidence that it is.

44
I’m not even going to try and itemize your post, other than to suggest that, despite you apparent defence of liberalism, I have never heard so many illiberal utterances. It is just the sort of attitude which fires the right-wing press and allows the BNP to become a viable proposition. Your post reads like a manifesto for the EDL.
Liberalism embraces individualism and diversity within the boundaries of the law and it is arrogant to infer that children brought up within the Islamic culture are violent
or become oppressive individuals or that they will not make-up their own minds when they reach adulthood. Many children brought-up as WASP convert to other religions and cultural lifestyles, and, yes, they are free to do this in a liberal society.

@pagar

“No I don’t. I’ve already said the headline was attention seeking and unwarranted. But there is a problem and if we don’t address it we will store up a lot of pain for the future.”

So we’re in agreement that the tabloid approach to this particluar ‘problem’, such as it is, is the wrong one? Do we also agree that the tabloid approach contributes to the cause of groups like the EDL who’s approach is even worse?

The ‘problem’ you’ve raised from one of the scaremongering Express articles looks like a pretty small one. The Civitas report, despite being very long, isn’t that useful. A handful of schools (out of a few hundred – at least one is an after school Madrassa) either have weird fundamentalist stuff on their website or link to other sites that have weird fundamentalist stuff on them.

At least one website has disappeared, and according to this article Feversham College and al-Mu’min primary named by think tank Civitas at least one has removed the links to controversial sites.

Only 4% of Muslim children go to these schools anyway. Seig-heiling goons rocking up in town centres and outside mosques to try to kick up trouble is a much bigger and more urgent problem.

@jb
” Your post reads like a manifesto for the EDL ”

The source that inspired my reaction to your post at (38) was George Orwells critical essays and scathing attack on the anti-western Leftist British Academic Intelligencia during WW2 and onwards,and their fetishization of totalitarian ideologies as an atonement for western imperialism and colonialisation.
He was not a member of EDL.

YAY FOR POSTS THAT ATTRACT RACISTS!

5cc

So we’re in agreement that the tabloid approach to this particluar ‘problem’, such as it is, is the wrong one? Do we also agree that the tabloid approach contributes to the cause of groups like the EDL who’s approach is even worse?

Yes.

Do we also agree that Muslim extremism contributes to the cause of groups like the EDL and that such extremism is founded in a literal or partial reading of Islamic scripture?

DHG

Thank you for your usual incisive and constructive contribution to the debate. Well researched and detailed analysis conveyed in such elegant and intelligent prose has really become your defining characteristic on this site.

pagar:

hello you mardy old arse, please see the comments on this thread for evidence to back up the fact that WHENEVER we have a post that deals with daft racists the comments thus attached are full of racists.

Lovely.

@pagar:

“Do we also agree that Muslim extremism contributes to the cause of groups like the EDL,”

Not really. I only think that actual Muslim extremism contributes to a very small extent. The exaggerated depiction of the influence and extent of Islamic extremism is what contributes most to the cause of groups like the EDL, whether that exaggeration is made by the media, groups like the BNP or websites like Little Green Footballs. That’s why the EDL focus on Muslim extremism rather than Hindu, Jewish, Sikh and Christian extremism that also exists, as Sunny points out. I doubt many EDL members are experts on the various strands of Islam and which are extreme or not.

“and that such extremism is founded in a literal or partial reading of Islamic scripture?”

No more so than extremism could be founded in a literal or partial reading of the Bible, with its calls for the stoning of adulteresses to death, the execution of people who break the Sabbath, the execution of homosexuals and various other undesirables. The Violence and Cruelty section of the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible has more. I doubt a ‘literal interpretation’ of Islamic scripture is even possible, given the prevelance of contradiction, absurdity and figurative language in religious texts.

I sorely doubt that the number of EDL members who have read a single word of the Qur’an reaches double figures. Let alone the number who have performed comparative readings of the book and examined current debate on how the Qur’an should be interpreted.

After all, there isn’t a single quote from Islamic scripture in the video I’m talking about here, but here is a slide that says ‘England is for life……not just for football’.

@Daniel Hoffman Gill

I presume by your “racist” is the Left-wing Mc,Carthyite version of “commie”

5cc

I don’t think we’re far apart at all. I also think that Christian and other religious fundamentalism is at odds with liberal democracy. It’s just that the Christian nutters are currently only threatening to blow up US abortion clinics.

DHG

Glad to see the elegant prose is intact.

Evidence please that I or anyone else posting on this thread is a racist other than in your own fevered imagination.

Evidence remember not the USUAL CRASS INSULTS.

@pagar

RIRA claim three Derry attacks

‘Real IRA was behind army attack’

Cheers.

@55

Slightly off topic I’m afraid.

Hard to justify IRA attacks in terms of Christian fundamentalism.

More an anti imperialist gesture.

“More an anti imperialist gesture.”

Interesting that you’re prepared to make that interpretation of RIRA attacks (even one that specifically targets relatives of a Catholic police officer), but not those of Muslims.

Do you not think that anything other than religion contributes to terrorist attacks carried out by Muslims?

43.

I absolutely reject the idea that the BNP is “far right”.

Are they extreme free marketeers?
Are they extreme libertarians?
Are they extreme democrats?

No. The BNP with its command and control policies is more of the extreme left than right. Racially motivated policy is neither left nor right and is no guide

#59 Dontmindme
That’s trite and tired.

No-one votes the BNP for its economic policies. Most vote BNP for issues of race, nationality, borders, “turf” and Englishness. And, to a lesser degree, religion.

That alone sets in stark contrast with both the left and the far-left.

#57 5cc
Soz but this time I don’t agree at all.
Groups like the IRA don’t make “religion” as the core of their rhetoric. They don’t talk about “infidels” at every turn. They don’t call for the “destruction” of Jews, Protestants or whoever. Their acts of terrorism are again, more motivated by nationalism, territory and economics. Religion plays a part too, I’m not saying it doesn’t, but it’s not their full defining element, nowhere near as those behind 7/7 and other atrocious acts.

Now, compare that with Choudary, Qaradawi, Bakri, and numerous Islamic fundamentalist leaders and clerics. Every single thing they say contains the word ‘infidels’, shar’ia law, Islam, Qu’ran, etc. Their rhetoric seems to be ENTIRELY motivated by religion. Not only that, they arrogantly claim to represent and ‘defend’ that religion as a whole.
I maintain, they play exactly into the hands of the Islamophobes. People on the left need to say that loud and clear.

Claude

It is laughable the way leftists such as yourself pretend that racism is not found in the left, or left organisations, or left thinking

Unions in this country spent vast efforts “protecting their members interests” in the 60′s against the then immigrant community. I don’t recall them being affliated to the Tories at the time. The left continue to be keen to protect jobs against foreign competition. Anyone of any race can get a job in this country, but God forbid a foriegner should win a job in a foriegn land by competion. But I suppose that is protectionist xenophobia, rather than ‘rascism’

The left have always had a terrible weakness that gets it into regular trouble, that is a belief in the moral superiority of their own position. I hate to quote the bible, but the one about removing the log from your own eye seems appropriate

@Claude

I totally agree that Choudhary and the others’ rhetoric is driven entirely by religion, and that this plays into the hands of Islamophobes. That’s why I linked to the post on Hagley Road to Ladywood about Choudhary being a dick.

The idea that this is the only thing that drives terrorism carried out by Muslims is, however, pretty naive. Tapes of Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer found them saying:

“Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.

Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. “

and:

What have you witnessed now is only the beginning of a string of attacks that will continue and become stronger until you pull your forces out of Afghanistan and Iraq. And until you stop your financial and military support to America and Israel.

It’s a mistake to dismiss the sectarian, religious element of the troubles in Northern Ireland, too. Ian Paisley didn’t scream his arse off at the Pope, calling him the ‘antichrist’ for purely secular reasons, and his website states that it is:

the home page of the European Institute of Protestant Studies. The Institute’s purpose is to expound the Bible, expose the Papacy, and to promote, defend and maintain Bible Protestantism in Europe and further afield.

Yes, religious imagery makes up a greater part of the rhetoric we hear from Muslim extremists and terrorists, but that does not mean it is non existent or inconsequential to terrorists closer to home.

#61 Dontmindme
It is laughable the way leftists such as yourself pretend that racism is not found in the left, or left organisations, or left thinking

I know you’ve obviously had a few, but you’ll find that the dickheads who walk around on the lookout for foreigners or other targets to attack or set alight are generally on the far right. Nail bombers, racist thugs, homophobic vigilantes, you may be aware that they tend to be closer to Combat 18, BNP and NF psychopaths than to any leftist group…
But I guess you also think pigs fly and custard is blue.

Yes, these are children being subjected to a form of indoctrination, but surely, we indoctrinate children into the principles of liberalism and equality, what is the difference?

Jebus, surely it’s self-evident that being indoctrinated into liberalism and equality is better for us all than being indoctrinated into illiberalism and inequality?

63 Well I Haven’t, but a good idea is a good idea. One bottle of Pinot Grigio it is. (it is still just about summer enough)

Whilst I am uncorking, perhaps you might reflect on what I said, and how your reply reflected it in every respect. Morally superior, and blind to your own failings.

63 BTW, you mean custard isnt blue?

#62 5cc
Ok I see what you mean now. It makes more sense.

#65 Dontmindme
Enjoy Pinot Grigio and please have one for me. A couple of glasses will make you see more clearly

@ 63 Claude – has it ever occured to that the storeotypical tatooed knuckle dragger is about as representative of the average racist as the KKK are of christinaity or Al K are of Islam ?

Do the maths, there aren’t enough of them in the country to have voted in two MEPs

And even a rudimentary understanding of European History would lead to the revelation that the left can be (and have been) just as racist as the right.

I absolutely reject the idea that the BNP is “far right”.

Dear god. I know you’re new here but don’t dredge up that crap again. As Claude has pointed out, the problem with the BNP aren’t their goddamn economic policies, and no one votes for them on that basis. And most of their support is from conservatives.

@journeyman:

No.

pagar:

they got deleted which is good, you seem to be worrying that I was calling you a racist, no need to get twitchy on that front sweetheart, also, best to stop puffing your chest out…your shirt is gaping and revealing some side boob.

Oh and I’m with Sunny in that no more of that BNP is left wing bullshit, it’s old and makes you sound like those pillocks that that that the Nazi’s were socialists.

@Daniel Hoffmann-Gill

Is your post addressed to me or ( Pagar ).When you write ” No “,please explain.?

Do you mean that I have stated that the Nazis where left-wing.?

If so,this is incorrect.Nowhere have I said so here.You must be thinking of somebody else.

All in all I find your post to be unintelligable.Are you intoxicated or something?

The no is for you in response to your question.

Fuck me, it’s not hard clart, get with the program.