And? What’s the point of your post?

All religious believers are clearly irrational and should be barred from holding public office, the civil service, serving in the military and from positions of responsibility in the professions. Further it should be a criminal offence to attempt to indoctrinate children with religious propaganda. Parents or other persons convicted should be subjected to severe penalties as a deterrent to others. Tolerance of this nonsense has gone on too long

Jonnie – people can make up their own minds.

“All religious believers are clearly irrational and should be barred from holding public office, the civil service, serving in the military and from positions of responsibility in the professions.”

You are either joking or insane.

Nice to see being a Christian can be reduced to your views on what a family is, abortion, and religious schools.

If Sean responds to this thread, I’d be interested in his views on what makes someone a Christian – is it their views on abortion, or the acceptance of God’s grace? Is it God who gets to decide who’s a Christian, or Sean? I’d also be interested to see how he allows for varying beliefs between different Christian traditions & denominations – some of which are considerably cooler on religious schooling than others.

Geez they know about The Secret Agenda, that can’t be good. At least they’re not sure who supports which secret plans – we can only hope that means they didn’t get into the inner sanctum and the preparations for this year’s War on Christmas can go ahead undisturbed.

These could be dark, dark days coming for the Evil Association of Very Evil Secularists but I’m sure EAVES will rise to the challenge. We may have to dip into the very dark places of the mortal soul however – I’m thinking human sacrifice or another bus ad campaign.

I like that leaflet. Lots of good ideas for us to use here in inner city Birmingham.

“more influenced by the Guardian than the gospel”
I don’t think I’d like to see a developed country run on direct Biblical principles.

“actually behaves like a Christian by supporting the family”
Mr. Lammy is married with two kids. Unless Mr. Sullivan has some proof of abuse, Mr. Lammy seems to be supporting the family as directly as he can.

“the unborn child”
I don’t see anything in the Bible (and yes, I’ve read the damn thing) that says that a woman should definitely die if there’s a chance of the baby surviving, or a raped woman should have the child.

“It is Labour party policy to support abortion”
…and, the last time I checked, the majority of Britons.

“up to birth (24 weeks)”
Birth is generally 10-17 weeks after that. Sticking to the Daily Mail school of statistics.

“(Points about euthanasia and gene therapy)”
Weirdly enough, there’s nothing in a book written 2000-odd years ago against gene therapy. If one has to extrapolate, one can make a better case that gene therapy would be allowed to ease human suffering.

“Some Labour politicians have a secret agenda to do away with Church schools”
1) If it’s a secret, how does a random Conservative candidate know about it?
2) They’ve been in power for 12 years. If they wanted rid of all faith schools, why haven’t they done it by now?

As a Muslim, I quite like the leaflet and would vote for Mr Sullivan if I lived in that constituency. Unfortunately, I live in Bradford.

I find it terribly amusing actually.

Good politics from the Tory bloke if nothing else (and I’m as atheist as they come myself).

With the rise of the various fundamentalist churches (Pentecostalists etc etc) across Black Britain, especially in the inner cities (and something similar is happening in the Caribbean and W Africa) there’s beginning to be something of a tension between the avowedly Christian (and pretty hardline Christian at that) views of a subsection of the black community (if I’m allowed to use that phrase) and the traditional identification of that very same black community with Labour, the left and the usual baggage about abortion etc that comes along with that.

I’ve no horse in this race so this is simply an observation: there is a rise of hardline Christianity in a segment of the voting population that has traditionally gone with Labour and that clash between Labour’s distinctly non hardline Christian approach to certain subjects and that traditional identification with Labour is going to be interesting to watch.

#10

If I were an atheist, I probably wouldn’t be so apoplectic about it. As a Labour activist, I can easily see the political value of such a leaflet – and anything that isn’t libellous or defamatory goes. As a Christian it quite frankly insults me with its crass understanding of my faith. So I don’t find it amusing.

For that very reason, I suspect the Tories wouldn’t put the leaflet out in a marginal; only in a seat they don’t think they can win where they can judge the effects without endangering a winnable.

#8

I agree with pretty much everything you say – but let’s not capitulate to the right’s rhetoric by saying Labour “supports abortion” – we support a woman’s right to choose, which includes the option of having a baby (and often requires support from the state. Next time Tories talk about scrapping child tax credit, child benefit, etc, I’d like to see Sean and his ilk defying his party on the ground that abolishing them would encourage people to have abortions because they wouldn’t be able to support their children).

@ 10 – But the (oh so subtle) assumption from the left is that only white christianity is bad, try finding a negative story about black christianity in the left wing press.

The usual waffle from Tim Worstall as usual.

While on the one hand he claims he is an atheist, on the other he is happy for the Tory party to be taken over by fundamentalist nuts who would like nothing more than put atheists like Tim on the top of a bonfire if they had half the chance. Tim is obviously similar to the Jews for Hitler brigade.

This just shows how more and more the British Conservative movement has become a copy of the Republican party in the US. Call me Dave is a fraud and he is bringing in the most right wing bunch of thugs we have seen in the last 60 years.

“on the other he is happy for the Tory party to be taken over by fundamentalist nuts ”

Sure: I’m a member of, and have stood as a candidate for, a party which competes with the Tories for votes. They fuck up and I win!

But the party you support is just the extreme wing of the Tory party.

With one or two principled socialists who oppose the EU , your party is just a bunch of disaffected Tories who will go back to them as soon as we are out of the EU. In fact, most of them will vote Tory at the next General election.

Sally said @Tim is obviously similar to the Jews for Hitler brigade. @

Nice.

16. If you are too stupid to understand the analogy. that is not my problem.

Keep the insults coming. You are of course far more intelligent than I.

Knowing Tottenham well, if this twat thinks playing the religion card is going to give him the seat, he’s a bigger monkeynut than I at first thought.

TORIES ANNOUNCE NEW POLICY ON YOUTH CRIME
“Return to Biblical values” claims Tory Candidate

The Conservatives have announced plans for wide-ranging reform of youth crime prevention and punishment.

Citing 2 Kings 2:23-25, which describes the experiences of the prophet Elisha and Almighty God’s holy and wholly just retribution (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%202:23-25&version=NKJV ), a Tory spokesperson announced that, if elected, children found guilty of ‘yobbish behaviour’, such as making fun of men with male pattern baldness, would be mauled to death by she-bears.

“We want to return to the Christian values that made Britain Great.” said the spokesman. “Likewise we are pleased to announce that under a Tory Government the children of convicted sinners, sorry, criminals, would be punished ‘unto the fourth generation’.

“I can also guarantee that this time, by following the model of our Almighty Lord Jesus, a Tory Government would be wholly sleaze-free, in that we would take one individual per year (chosen by lottery), off-load all of our mis-deeds onto them and ritually torture and sacrifice them, thus cleansing us all of guilt.”

More news as it comes.

#12

I’ve never noticed that. Can you provide examples of “white Christianity” being criticised?

I wouldn’t draw a dividing line between “black Christianity” and “white Christianity” – if you tried to describe the differences theologically, you wouldn’t be able to do it. It’d be more appropriate to refer to “black churches”, although even then they are not exclusive and tend to include a few white members.

I also think you should be very, very careful if you’re suggesting someone going to a black church is more likely to confine their moral outlook to abortion, what constitutes a family and religious schooling than someone in another church. (It’s not clear that you do think that, from your brief comment, so this may be a straw man in your case; it’s implied in Tim’s comment, though)

I think someone in his office has been watching the West Wing, to be honest. This is a dilute and shuffling attempt at the kind of attack ads that have won the Republican party two Presidencies, if not actual elections, and no-one knows how many other races and judicial confirmations.

I have lived in Tottenham and environs for a while. There are several Dominionist churches there, most ostentatiously the one on West Green Road on 7 Sisters. That area, and Hackney, were both carpeted with bill-boards for the Christian Party in April: the Conservatives are not the only people who think those areas are aligning with the Bible Belt. The slogan then was explicitly, “Neither Labour nor the Conservatives are Chrisitan enough; vote for us!” I only paraphrase slightly if at all.

This is politics by poll and prejudice, just like Florida. And let’s be honest, here; it’s not exactly a schocker to find the Conservatives playing by neo-con rules… The distressing thing is I’d only be slightly surprised if it had been a Labour politician. Will it win an election? Not in Tottenham. Most of the people there know a con game when one goes past.

Most people seem oblivious to the fact that it mentions on these leaflets that they are delivered free to the churches of the area. Whether ‘most voters’ appreciate this message is beside the point because only people like to be receptive to the message will be reading it.

I’d be interested in how you think other parties should counter this type of campaign. Pointing out that the Tories are in favour of family values and working with churches is an option, but doesn’t sound like a winner to me.

#23

“only people likely to be receptive to the message will be reading it”

That’s assuming that other Christians don’t find the leaflet as insulting to their faith as I did.

Apart from the content – which offers a very narrow definition of what moral issues Christians are concerned with – the style of the leaflet, which from what we’ve seen is purely negative and attack-oriented, will not be received well by many Christians. Personally I don’t have any problem with attack politics, at least not when they’re focussed on policy – but in my experience Christians tend to find attack politics more offputting on average than non-believers.

Many Christians will see these leaflets and reckon the Tories are patronising their faith, trying to take them for a ride and engaging in vicious attacks. That’s not a vote-winner.

In terms of countering it, some CLPs do put out specifically-designed leaflets to churches, generally focussing on issues like global justice, the environment, etc. They tend to be positive in tone rather than inflammatory as this one is. A short paragraph in one of those along the lines of “you may have seen a Tory leaflet distributed to churches making personal attacks on me and trying to make political hay out of important moral issues. The leaflet is misleading, but if you have concerns about my positions on any of the issues it raises, I would be more than happy to discuss them with you. Contact me at xxx” should be sufficient.

I find that the concept that Labour is pursuing an aggressively secular agenda resonates with most people of faith. In inner city Birmingham, faith groups contribute a massive amount to their local communities. I would make no apology for a campaign which targets disillusioned people of faith. With that in mind, Scott makes some useful points.

“I find that the concept that Labour is pursuing an aggressively secular agenda resonates with most people of faith.”

It is true that many Christians are worried about increasing secularisation (although the debate is obviously a lot more complex and many would state concerns about secularisation at the same time as being in favour of the disestablishment of the CoE and arguing for a clear religion/state divide). However, the leaflet has one half-sentence on this and the only policy criticism barely related to that theme is the sixth, which is easily disregarded as made-up.

“In inner city Birmingham, faith groups contribute a massive amount to their local communities.”

Although I’ve never lived in Birmingham, I’m happy to accept this at face value. I’d be very surprised if it wasn’t true. But I’m not sure what relevance it has to anything else you’ve said, or indeed to this leaflet.

I don’t know who wrote this leaflet – whether the candidate wrote it himself or someone else did, but it reads as if a non-Christian has thought “what buttons do I need to press to win the Christian vote”, and that won’t go down well in churches.

John Q has it down, that area knows when a game is being played and considering it hasn’t been Tory since 1962, it’ll take a lot more than a religious call to arms to make it go blue.

No one can seriously support church schools, can they?

Chris Baldwin @28:

You mean, except the law of the land? Due to perambulatory parents I went to 9 different primary schools in this country and bar one Montessori method school they were all faith schools [1], every single one. St. Paul’s Bourne End, which was awful, and Holy Trinity Marlow, which was slightly better, are but two of them.

I have political concerns about faith schools, not because they will teach a specific religious worldview, which isn’t my problem, but because they’re being given public money to do it, which is. We’ve had faith schools for centuries; one lot publicly funded (i.e. those run by the Established church) and one lot not (i.e. Catholic schools, and Jewish schools). Obviously, obviously, it is not reasonable for one religion to get massive public funding for its indoctrination program, and others not [2], but I think that Bible Blair’s answer to the question was diametrically perpendicular to requirements. They should have removed all state funding from any Anglican school that didn’t go immediately secular, rather than providing a scheme by which lots of schools can take public money to teach private faith.

[1] But clearly not Faith Schools ™ since this was some time ago.

[2] Privately funded, entirely choice-accessed faith school? It’s a faith school. Compulsory education of minors delivered using government funds which is structured to promote compliance to a particular religion? Indoctrination program.

It’s probably a mistake to try engaging with Matt Munro but I’ll bite.

Richard Dawkins is left-wing, isn’t he? You’ll never see him sparing black Christianity, or Islam for that matter, & I’m glad.

Yes, there is a pro-faith bias in the Groan, Indy etc. in too many articles, but it’s the left-wing blogosphere which criticises it most fervently (see more or less anything at Shiraz Socialist & similar places).

Do you have a selective memory, or have you simply forgotten what left-wing bloggers made of the Lilian Ladele incident? I’ve just called it to mind of the top of my head.

Do you actually give a fuck about engaging with people or are you just all about sneering at the supposed liberal elite?

Personally I find this publication totally repulsive. One of the reasons I do not support unlimited immigration, & am a secularist, is that hardcore Christianity & Islam have already made too many inroads in this country & we’re just importing headaches.

Whoops, didn’t notice that it was days ago. I’ve been on holiday. (Not in Tuscany though).