Was this article written before the Chief Rabbi said Kaminski isn’t an anti-Semite and before he attacked Milliband for misrepresenting his oppinion?

Shatterface: “Was this article written before the Chief Rabbi said Kaminski isn’t an anti-Semite and before he attacked Milliband for misrepresenting his oppinion?”

The chief Rabbi’s opinions are clearly visible here. His back-tracking still does not contradict what he said in the past.

Auntie Vera: “Jedwabne is hardly a name that rolls off the tongue. is it? ”

That may be true, but it is still important to a lot of people.

As a matter of principle this issue remains important. Whether 97% of Britons, in your opinion, are interested or not is neither here nor there.

“well over 97% of the Great British Public are wholly uninterested in any of this stuff.”

Just as well. Imagine how hysterical Hague would get were it otherwise.

While Denis “there are 50,000 sex slaves in Britain, I read it in the Mirror” MacShane is trying to keep the hysteria going, I think banana boy is sensible enough to realise that following the rabbi’s interview the story is fizzling out, no matter how many LC posts there may be.

‘The chief Rabbi’s opinions are clearly visible here. His back-tracking still does not contradict what he said in the past.’

Actually, it does. ‘Backtracking’ is clearly the same thing as ‘contradiction’ here – unless there’s a meaning I’m unaware of? Yet you didn’t mention that he had retracted his comments – why is that?

You also ignore his most recent attacks on Milliband – why is that?

And 12:43am – did it really take you 24 hours to cut and paste this?

All the interesting debates for the future are to do with the relationship between the individual and the state.

This thread is going to end up looking like two dinosaurs fighting over a bone.

After his fabulous performance on Newsnight, I find it hard to find anything MacShane says seriously – least of all an accusation of someone else being ‘hysterical’.

And questions as to whether the Tories endorse the domestic policies of Eastern European parties are just silly, for all the reasons gone into here (again and again and again and again) over the last few weeks.

Perhaps he could answer William Hague’s question as to whether it is appropriate behaviour for a Foreign Secretary to serially insult Britain’s allies for the purpose of domestic political gain?

Very interesting how the Tories are trying to shift the discussion away from their Latvian friends (or other people in the Polish L&J)…or their Dutch & Belgian allies. They keep saying ‘no-one cares about this issue’, but are clearly in a great state of hysteria.

Lets analyse these points one by one (ignoring the poor use of capitalisation, the lack of courtsey in using honorifics etc which one would hope for from an MP).

1. Does he agree with the Chief Rabbi of Poland’s criticism of Michal Kaminski’s views on the murder of Jews at Jedwabne?

Nicely phrased, since the views are that Poland as a country should offer no official appology for the criminal acts of certain of its former citizens, which seems valid. Is Mr McShane going to appologise for all the burgalries committed in the United Kingdom between say 1820 and 1830 by British and Irish subjects? Because this is exactly the same logic, just a lot more obviously stupid. A crime is a crime, and is the responsibility of the person who committed it, not all of us.

2. Does he agree with the Chief Rabbi’s views that Kaminski sought out to join and was active in a “neo-nazi and antisemitic” party when he started political activity?

Nicely phrased again. I do not recall that the Chief Rabbi ever said that Mr Kaminski had sought out a neo-Nazi or antisemetic party, merely an opposition party which subsequently has become such. As an illegal opposition party its views were somewhat less well (if that is the right word) formed.

3. Does he support ECR MEPs appearing on Radio Maryja which the Vatican and Polish Holocaust survivors have criticised for its anti-jewish broadcasts?

Does it matter? Should elected representatives only appear on broadcasters they agree with (that might cut down the number of politicians on the BBC of late)? Is it not perfectly acceptable to appear on a hostile platform to put your own views, or is such debate unacceptable to Mr McShane?

4. Does he support kaminski’s homophobic language?

No. And neither, now, does Mr Kaminski, who admits using the phrase was wrong. However, we probably have all used words or phrases we now regret at some time, including Mr McShane. Admitting mistakes is admirable, sticking to them is merely stupid.

5. Does he think President Kwasniewski was right to say sorry for the Jedwabne massacres and Kaminksi wrong to attack that apology?

I think as a possible future foreign secretary Mr Hague should not be speaking on this issue, but there is nothing morally wrong with either position.

6. Will hague be joining his new friends in Latvia when they commemorate the Waffen SS?

Does Mr McShane not read anything anyone else writes? All major (non-Russian) parties in Latvia commemorate all the dead who fell in World War II, which includes those who fought for the Nazis, those who fought for the communists and the innocent victims. So this is doubly selective – focussing only on one party and one section of the commemorated. Hardly convincing.

7. Does William endorse the efforts of the PiS (Kaminski’s party) to ban gay pride marches in Warsaw

I guess not myself. So after six failures, finally a hit – a local political matter has resulted in an unacceptable decision, so we must beat up the foreign affairs spokesman of a party in another country, allied to the party in question. Unfortunately, this is hardly going to be a unique occurence, and all parties will be equally vulnerable to this sort of thing. And, to be honest, do we need to go to Poland to find local political bigotry etc.

8. Do the Tories endorse the Germanophobe line of the PiS and the kaczynski brothers?

Thinking Germany has too much influence and power over your own country is not Germanophobe, it is merely a political point of view.

9. Why do Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel brief openly that Cameron is “untrustworthy” (see saturday’s Gdn)?

I give up. Does Mr McShane even check his sources before making a fool of himself like this. This was never said.

10. Does he agree with the Economist that he has created a “shoddy, shameful alliance” with Kaminski and Vile?

I doubt it. But then again why would Mr Hague agree with an avowedly Eurofederalist publication? Does Mr McShane agree with the Spectator that he has firmly lost this argument?

I would say my respect for Mr McShane has gone down having read this, but unfortunately this sort of desperate muck-flinging (easily answered) is exactly what I have come to expect. If Labour wants to be a serious force for good in politics (which is to be desired) it needs to marginalise the facile and fatuous puff, with almost no facts behind it, the likes of Mr McShane produce; it does not even warrant the name of spin, as at least that has to be convincing and not demonstratably wrong. To allow Mr McShane, already recently wrong on the number of trafiked sex workers but determined to defend his figure with no evidence, to keep highlighting weak arguments like this will just present an image of a party with no moral compunctions regarding evidence, which might not be a good thing at the moment.

Denis MacShame failed to answer one simple question on Newsnight, then has the cheek to ask others to answer 10 of his questions. Then there was the small matter of misleading the House and the public over his wild 25,000 sex slaves in Britain claim.

Shouldn’t he be first attempting to restore any credibility that he has lost?

While Denis “there are 50,000 sex slaves in Britain, I read it in the Mirror” MacShane is trying to keep the hysteria going, I think banana boy is sensible enough to realise that following the rabbi’s interview the story is fizzling out, no matter how many LC posts there may be.

wow, you are getting desperate aren’t you cjcjc and shatterface?

Hohoho – reproducing a MacShane “e-mail to the press” (autodirected to the spam folder if the recipients have any sense) seems a pretty sure sign of desperation to me!

Horse. Flogging. Dead.

… which was in response to a pretty shameless and hysterical article by your idol William Hague…

I don’t really understand the sex slaves argument against McShane. I understand he repeated an estimate of numbers which may now be discredited, but is it being argued that trafficking does not exist or merely that it is occurring at an acceptable level?

…which was in response to a pretty shameless and hysterical conference speech by David Miliband…

I worship the very ground on which he walks, obviously!

…which was in response to a pretty shameless and hysterical conference speech by David Miliband…

Ahh yes, that’s what it comes down to. God forbid anyone point out the nasty people the Tories have allied with in Europe.

Perhaps which is why Tories have studiously avoided answering above questions and instead resort to whataboutery and ‘look over there’ claims.

This isn’t going to stop guys. It’s going to carry on for a while.

It’s going to carry on for a while.

On some blogs it is.
In the real world, not.

20 – Well, I note that Miliband has stopped talking about the shameful Latvians – probably in response to our ambassador being called in by the Latvian government and given a severe dressing down.

The only concrete result from Labour’s continued attacks on the governing parties of two of our NATO allies has been to cause two separate diplomatic incidents. And the above questions are either irrelevant or facile.

On Jedwabne, for example, it is none of my business on what side of the moral debate various Polish politicians fall. It was a massively controversial issue in Poland, and opinion on whether the apology was right was almost evenly split down the middle. To suggest that being opposed to a national apology is synonymous with being ‘in favour’ of the massacre is childish. I am opposed to the British Government offering an offficial apology for the slave trade. I am not, however, in favour of the slave trade.

History is more complicated than being a matter of goodies against baddies. Shouting ‘racist’ and ‘fascist’ is stupid, ill-informed, and massively counter-productive. The sound you can hear is a dead horse being flogged.

History is more complicated than being a matter of goodies against baddies. Shouting ‘racist’ and ‘fascist’ is stupid, ill-informed, and massively counter-productive.

Exactly, and perhaps if you read more on the Waffen SS memorials you’re realise they’re a lot more insidious than Hague is making out.

And I think we’re pretty fine even if some right-wing parties from Latvia and Poland decide to get angry

23 – That’d be the Government of Latvia – our NATO ally. And I know a reasonable amount about the history of the Baltic States during WW2, as did the lawyers at the Nuremberg trials.

But then you also know that history is more complicated than that – you after all are on record as defending people with much closer ties to the SS than any of the chaps the Tories are involved with.

23. Eastern European history between 1939-1945 is very complicated. After the Soviet invasion of 1939 and up to the German invasion of May 1941 many citizens in the Baltic states were murdered by the communists and others sent to the Siberian camps to die.Under the Ribbentrop Molotov Pact those Baltic families who had German ancestry were able to flee westwards. However, many of the men from the Baltic peoples were forcibly enrolled in the Waffen SS.

Some of those who stayed in the Baltic countries joined the German forces as they were seen as liberators from the Soviets. The sovies murdered 20,000 Poles at Katyn Woods. After the Soviet invasion of Finland,some Finns fought with the Germans. The Soviets forces were happy to stay outside Warsaw while the Germans finished off the resistance . Anyone who has the courage to take on the German Army is likely to have the determination to resist the Soviet occupation.

It would be worthwhile checking how and why certain Latvians joined Waffen SS
before coming to any conclusions.