Why? Because time is running out. We need to be debating how to achieve the drastic cuts in CO2 emissions that are required to reduce our impact on the climate, not wasting time endlessly rehashing a debate that was largely settled half a century ago.

I love this sign off. Of course they are right – after all, humans were completely unable to inhabit the Earth during the much warmer Medieval Warm Period.

And anyway, looking back through history I have to observe that some of the most inhospitable conditions occur when the world is too cold. I would think we’d welcome a bit of warming.

Good grief, climate change and immigration threads attract all the gonks don’t they?

Mark M, you must be joking?

“I love this sign off. Of course they are right – after all, humans were completely unable to inhabit the Earth during the much warmer Medieval Warm Period.”

The MWP – a period much investigated by real climatologists and not people who like their science to agree with their gut feelings – affected the North Altlantic area, not every continent and ocean as in today’s man-made warming. As you would know if you read about the science and not denier talking points dressed up to resemble science.

Also, several civilisations in areas affected by the MWP collapsed suddenly, particularly in Central America (the Maya) and Arizona. So yeah, actually, parts of the world did become uninhabitable and unknown numbers of people died during a period of regional, natural climate change.

Heating up the entire planet doesn’t look like such a great idea when you think of it, does it?

“And anyway, looking back through history I have to observe that some of the most inhospitable conditions occur when the world is too cold. I would think we’d welcome a bit of warming.”

Please tell us your idea for how people in China and India will drink as the Himalayan glaciers retreat further and further. You can send it to their governments on a postcard.

Also, you happy to house the populations of coastal areas in your place? Or will they need to seek other accommodation? You could at least put someone from Tuvalu up in a spare room.

You wait till the effects of climate change cause mass migration across the globe. Not just a few immigrants but 100′s of millions of people on the move because there is no water or food where they live.

The Daily Wail and Torygrapgh will get their knickers in a twist then.

As for the science, the stupid people are not interested in science. These are the flat earther’s and creationists. They think their invisible cloud man is going to save them. They will never believe the science. They have already decide that there id no man made global warming.

Wow you guys are easy to wind up. As I’m sure you’ve noticed, any form of climate change ‘debate’ is impossible on comment threads like these. Still, doesn’t mean you can’t make a comment or two and see all the believers go on the offensive.

Always nice to see the old ‘sea levels will rise’ line – gives me a chance to say how I put ice in a glass, filled it to the top with water, left the ice to melt and not a drop of water spilled out. And if the Himalayan glaciers retreat further does that not just make the water easier to access (more melting)?

Of course, you’re a believer so I assume you’re doing you bit to reduce your CO2 emissions. Are you wearing a coat or is the heating on in your home? Actually you probably ought to turn the computer off too, that uses electricity and therefore CO2. The TV, lights in your house? All of those are off I’m sure. After all, you’re a good boy.

Perhaps I could offer the John Redwood argument

The West got rich by burning lots of cheap energy [...] The poorer countries of the world say, that is what we want to do [...] You have no right now to come along and tell us we cannot do what you did, just because it will add to the world’s output of CO2

“Always nice to see the old ’sea levels will rise’ line – gives me a chance to say how I put ice in a glass, filled it to the top with water, left the ice to melt and not a drop of water spilled out.”

Thanks for proving what a liar you are because that all chestnut has already been claimed by Clarkson and all the othe morons like you. Better trolls please, this one is an idiot.

The MWP affected the entire northern hemisphere good and bad. Native Americans indured an extreme drought at the same time. Go back even further to the ending of the ice age and the sahara looked like Kansas, even further, and Bermuda was almost attached to America.
The climate changes. This planet has been unusually stable for the past several thousand years, and what man put into the air 50 years ago is not going to drasticely change the climate.
The individuals who are still believing this haven’t gotten it into their heads yet that the science was faked. Its not the emails that expose the fraud, its the FORTRAN source code used to fake the data that is the proof. The fact that most scientists recieved their core data to form their conclusions came from this corrupted source. Even more damning is the other main source NASA is refusing to comply with the freedom of information act and show how they came to their conclusions.
Any scientist still holding on the global warming is not being objective or reasonable by not acknowledging the fraudulent core data. A true scientist would want to start fresh with uncorrupted data not soldier on knowing the core data was forged.
The only conclusion to come to, knowing that all the scientist used the same core data, is that The New Scientist Magazine has alternative motives other than pure science.

Mark M @ 5

“The West got rich by burning lots of cheap energy [...] The poorer countries of the world say, that is what we want to do [...] You have no right now to come along and tell us we cannot do what you did, just because it will add to the world’s output of CO2″

That tells us much more about John Redwood and the anti science fuckwitsthat infest the Tory Party.

To do something when no-one understands the consequences is perhaps excusable. To carry on doing that thing when the consequences are understood and look like they are likely to have serve detrimental to this and future generations is a bit twatish, would you agree?

To stick your fingers in your ears going ‘Nah, nah nah, can’t hear you’ to justify carrying on doing that is the action of a bunch of greedy arseholes, I think most decent people would agree too.

“Wow you guys are easy to wind up.”

It really is all about pissing off lefties, isn’t it?

Ha, ha, ha! Liberals care about people and stuff. HA, HA! I made a funny!

I wouldn’t be surprised if Mark M walked in a cancer ward and started pointing at patients and laughing, before saying ‘Gosh, you guys get so wound up!’

It’s just as well people on the left don’t around saying how angry it would make them if right-wing trolls were to hurl themselves into gigantic bonfires, because then they’d go straight and do it, chortling at the offence they were causing as their own flesh charred.

But we’re a principled bunch and we wouldn’t do it.

“…gives me a chance to say how I put ice in a glass, filled it to the top with water, left the ice to melt and not a drop of water spilled out.

As you say, I am a believer. One thing I believe is that the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets are on land. Apparently you believe they are suspended above the water like an ice cube in a glass.

I don’t think this even qualifies as a lie. It’s like saying ‘global warming isn’t true because the sky is green.’

When you discuss science, do you ever find children stop, stare and then point and laugh?

“And if the Himalayan glaciers retreat further does that not just make the water easier to access (more melting)?”

That’s brilliant. The people of China and India hadn’t thought they could drink magic water that flows forever after their glaciers have vanished. Problem solved!

You are a gift to error.

“The West got rich by burning lots of cheap energy [...] The poorer countries of the world say, that is what we want to do [...] You have no right now to come along and tell us we cannot do what you did, just because it will add to the world’s output of CO2″

Actually what the delegates of the developing have said very clearly at Copenhagen is that they want the West to massively cut its emissions, accept responsibility for global warming and provide them with the funds for clean energy development.

You and John Redwood can come up with whatever pseudoscience-talking-points-posing-as-debate you like, but don’t pretend you are speaking for the developing world. They have spokesmen and women – and they are saying the diametric opposite to you.

You want to take their side or not?

Daniel Hoffmann Gill

“Good grief,climate change and immigration threads attrack all the gonks don’t they.”

Why stop with climate change and immigration Daniel Hoffmann Gill ?
What would you like Liberal Conspiracy to be. An echo chamber perhaps.?
Like the Guardians (comment is free—as long as you agree ).
Which deletes every second comment that doesn’t conform to the new soft-neo-religio-marxist thought-crime control.

For Christ sake.
All that Mark M (1) did was disagree with you.He’s not a fucking leper,just because all the recent C.R.U climate scandal has created justifable doubts in peoples minds.
I only comment on sites like this for one reason.
Not because I.m a Tory Toff with a top hat,work for the neo-Con-Bush Zionist conspiracy
that wants to imprison gays and send Muslims to the gas chambers.( Don’t panic-I’m not)
I comment here because of people like you,and Sally cliche Brown Shirt.—-who are at the other end of the spectrum.
And I don’t want to see the “arty campus elitists” and speech heresy inquisition,go down that well trodden slippery slope of morally relatavistic kitsch socialism and end up 20 years down the road with a resurgent —”means justifies the ends” kafka-esqué nightmare.

I find it incredible to believe–that I am witnessing the same ” adolescent campus intellectual fascism”—that i inflicted on other unfortunate souls,in my shallow hippie days at college in 68.

@Anybody

Whats this about heavy industry and global oil-companies being pro-global warmist and expected to make billions out of it.
If this is true,it doesn’t fit with the— “deniers are in the pay of the oil companies”- argument,does it ?
And from what I understand…..Exxon,BP and Shell were funding the pro-global warming argument. Is this correct ?
There appears to be over 500 large corporations lined up to get a slice of the cake.
Carbon trading being the equivalent of gold / oil trading.
Follow the money.

“It’s just as well people on the left don’t around saying how angry it would make them if right-wing trolls were to hurl themselves into gigantic bonfires, because then they’d go straight and do it, chortling at the offence they were causing as their own flesh charred.”

That’s not right. Whenever we criticise someone on the right, the trolls get in their waaaambulance and get all sensitive about their hurt feelings, stop calling us lefties humourless wimps and start on about how we are all fascists.

e.g. journeyman is posting comments on our site in order single handedly to prevent the “arty campus elitists” and speech heresy inquisition,go down that well trodden slippery slope of morally relatavistic kitsch socialism and end up 20 years down the road with a resurgent —”means justifies the ends” kafka-esqué nightmare.

Which is nice of him.

“That’s not right. Whenever we criticise someone on the right, the trolls get in their waaaambulance and get all sensitive about their hurt feelings, ”

So true it needed saying again.

This is a Liberal site and nobody asked the conservative trolls to come here and shit everywhere. If you don’t like trolls, leave, I promise no one will miss you .

@donpaski

“single handedly”

“Which is nice of him”

Unfortunatley I don’t have the home comfort of a collective/group think idenity echo-chamber that you have.
You don’t believe me. Try disagreeing with one of your comrades outside the confines of the party line and see what happens.
Its as ideologically inbreed as rabbit farm.
Has it occured you yet,that the 68 Leftist movement is the new orthodoxy/establishment/
Where do you think the squaller,decay,crime,social disintegration,corruption and economic decline came from Mr Donpaski
It happened on your watch.Do you pay lip service to it or denounce it.
It came the progressive arty farty career mob with expendable principals,but mouthed all the right politically correct niceties to placate the morally righteous like you.
And they’ve been in goverment in LIb/Lab/Con for 4 decades.
They ARE you—and you ARE them.
You duped yourself. Its a Virus/Meme….dictatorship of ideas.

Still angry at me, eh? Well how’s about a peace offering? From Watts Up With That (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/09/hockey-stick-observed-in-noaa-ice-core-data/#more-13939)

In other words, we’re pretty lucky to be here during this rare, warm period in climate history. But the broader lesson is, climate doesn’t stand still. It doesn’t even stay on the relatively constrained range of the last 10,000 years for more than about 10,000 years at a time.

Does this mean that CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas? No.

Does it mean that it isn’t warming? No.

Does it mean that we shouldn’t develop clean, efficient technology that gets its energy elsewhere than burning fossil fuels? Of course not. We should do all those things for many reasons — but there’s plenty of time to do them the right way, by developing nanotech. (There’s plenty of money, too, but it’s all going to climate science at the moment) And that will be a very good thing to have done if we do fall back into an ice age, believe me.

And I agree with him

He’s not a fucking leper,just because all the recent C.R.U climate scandal has created justifable doubts in peoples minds.
I only comment on sites like this for one reason.

oh dear. right-whingers start crying when called out on their bullshit science. Let me get my violin out.

Take it you disagree with this then Sunny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFbUVBYIPlI)

Would sure love to know why though

@Sunny Hundal

“start crying when called out on their bullshit science”

Er….no. I was “crying “about any dissent on any subject being associated with holocaust denial and met with State Correctional Institution of Counter Revolutionary rhetoric.
But if you to want to sink to the same level of discourse as´ “Sally Brown Shirt “–be my guest.

I was “crying “about any dissent on any subject being associated with holocaust denial

Ah, I see – so you want us to use some more, um, politically correct language to describe your little game? Just like how you don’t like being called ‘racist’ any more?

Ahhh, poor, sensitive, humourless righties…

@Niel

” Ah,I see–so you want us to use some more,um,poltically correct language to describe your little game ”

It is no use Hans, zees swiner Englisher Liberalisher Sozialister—-zay are much to clever for unser Deutscher supreamister.
Zay haf dicovered our “Secret Plan”
If only der Fuhrer vas here–he vould know vot to do.

^^^
OTOH, it’s always such a fucking car-crash when they try to do funny. Please, righties, stick to being po-faced and humourless…

I love the persecuted rightwinger meme. “You can’t talk about immigration.” etc. when its all I hear.

Even science is against them.

I suppose, it must feel like there’s a conspiracy when everyone’s against you… with evidence (obviously falsified using specially Sharia weather stations, but evidence nonetheless).

Jaysus.

18: with the Youtube link.

a) It’s most likely that those temperature heights were regional rather than global, it’s easy to cherry pick one bit of data and claim something from it, this is why Science looks at a wide range of data and models to come up with it’s conclusion. See more here.

b) Even if it was globally warmer in medieval times it doesn’t prove that the models that scientists and experts are using are wrong. In fact nothing has proven the models wrong at the moment, if anything the models are TOO SCEPTICAL about climate change. What matters is that these models show that there is a warming trend happening here, and no amount of temperature highs or lows in the past will influence this future. The argument presented by that video is just diversion away from logic.

Hope that helps.

Er….no. I was “crying “about any dissent on any subject being associated with holocaust denial and met with State Correctional Institution of Counter Revolutionary rhetoric.

so says the troll who comes here constantly complaining about how the left apparently treats Muslims with too much political correctness and how they’re the greatest threat to mankind etc etc… Awww, did I hurt your feelings? Would you like me to get my violin out again?

@Sunny Hundal

You can áfford to be flippant.
I have the disadvantage of having only one nationality.

I have the disadvantage of having only one nationality.

You have my deepest sympathies. It must be so damn hard growing up in a country like the UK. Those Africans don’t know how lucky they are!

@Sunny Hundal

“those Africans don’t know how lucky they are”

You might find this shocking (correction) you will find this shocking.
And infact it will in your eyes expose me for the villain that you believe I am.
But here goes–I’m going to commit my self.

In the end,when push comes to shove.And in times of trouble.If I have to prioritize
I care more about the future and fate of my country and my countrymen,
than those Africans you mention.

Now what do think about that.

24 – Thanks for your reasonable response. A couple of questions though

a) The data is indeed from one spot – however, is it unreasonable to assume that the variations in temperature seen there have also been experienced by other parts of the world, and also to say that the world has been much warmer in the past than it currently is?

b) I was under the impression that “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t”. That suggests to me that the models aren’t working – the phrasing of the sentence suggesting they expected it would be warmer this decade than it has been. Is that not the case?

Overall, I think it’s generally accepted that the world is getting warmer. But the lesson to take from these videos is that the world is perfectly capable of warming itself, without our help. To me, the issue is what happens if we succeed in reducing emissions (no guarantee of that) and the world continues to warm because it’s mainly a natural phenomenon?

Seriously, these thread are just troll bait and as soon as they get flamed they play victim.

This can get quite boring.

It appears that the Russians have today claimed that Hadley/Met Office etc. have been basing all their climate predictions/analyses on false data.

The Russians say the true – full – data show no significant warming. The former USSR accounts for somewhere around 1/12 of the Earth’s surface, so if that’s all been exaggerated….

So much for the ‘science’.

It’s back to square one.

What about NASA’s data?

What about NASA’s data?

NASA’s data, sadly, is calibrated to the HadCrut garbage.

It really is back to square one.