Good to have you back, Sunny.

I think it’s clear the police probably sympathise with the EDL lot. Demographically and socially they’re cut from the same cloth.

Welcome back.

No surprises here. The EDL have sucessfully convinced the media that they are “moderate” despite the cross-over with BNP and other fascist groups. They play upon the popular myths about immigration and islamification that are so widely and hysterically reproduced by the press every day. As blanco says, coppers are more likely to be sympathetic with them than with a group they perceive to be a bunch of lefties.

We now await the usual BNP trolling…

The misleading media spin on Saturday’s demo is shocking. Here’s my take on what I saw vs what I later read had allegedly happened:

http://badconscience.com/2010/03/21/edl-police-misrepresentation-and-future-tactics/

@3

“The EDL have sucessfully convinced the media that they are “moderate” . . .”

So are the media really so gullible? Is it because they are not as intellectually sophisticated as an LC reader? If they are, why isn’t the Bolton News similarly deceived? Or isn’t it part of the media?

“We now await the usual BNP trolling…”

I believe this is an example of the traditional tactic “poisoning the well” much loved by the left for its ability to stymie free discussion. This can be phrased something along the lines of: “Anyone who subsequently leaves comments here, the contents of which are disagreeable to me and those who share my opinions, is a member of group X (a subsection of society previously named by the writer) and ipso facto, what s/he has to say is of no value”.

X, here, being the BNP. Now that’s a surprise, isn’t it!

Hmm. Where were the police ID numbers on the officers wearing fluorescent jackets? I can’t see them in the photos.

@5 Trofim

I’m concerned about press misrepresentation of events, police bias and the rise of the far right.

All too frequently when topics such as this are raised some nazi troll comes on and the whole thread deteriorates into a “debate” about islamification, immigration etc. I would not like to see it happen again here, this is one of the few places on the web I have found where there is a decent level of discussion.

As far as “poisoning the well”, what is the purpose of your posting other than to do exactly that?

@5

Two thoughts about why the media has carried misleading stories: 1, they didn’t send their own hacks and instead are using wire agency copy (as indicated by uniformity of reports and lack of journalists present) and 2, they take the police’s word for granted regarding numbers and extent of confrontation.

As my blog (see link above) aims to show, this has resulted in an extremely misleading representation of the day’s events. The media doesn’t need to be biased – it just needs to be supplicant and lazy.

I’m not a fan of the News of the World, but look at this fine piece of reporting from last week: “‘Patriotic’ EDL exposed as racist, violent thugs”.

Yurrzem!@3:

Indeed, although they seem to be pretty busy in the multiculturalism thread at the mo.

Yurrzem @ 7

If we’re into pragmatics, one might ask what motivation underlies your initial statement. My guess would be: “I and my acquaintances wish to express our barely divergent opinions on this matter, divergent only to the degree that they satisfy our feeling of having a discussion, but not so diverse as to cause us any psychic discomfort or provoke radical challenge to our underlying beliefs”.

When I first went to the USSR it was not long after Solzhenitsyn had been put on a plane to the west, and part of the arranged programme was being bussed to a “round table discussion” on this, and various other pertinent matters.

It went something like this:
Chairman: “Comrade Konchalovsky – what do you think of Solzhenitsyn’s actions?
A. He’s a traitor to his homeland that has nurtured and supported him. Good riddance.”
Chairman: “Comrade Seliznyev – do you have any thoughts on this matter?
B. “Comrade Konchalovsky is absolutely right. Solzhenitsy has gone to join his spiritual compatriots in the west. We don’t need people like him.
Chairman: “Comrade Trifonova – what’s you view on this?
C. My other comrades have hit the nail on the head. Solzhenitsyn is a disgrace to his country and has fomented poison against his motherland. Let him luxuriate in the praise from the forces of reaction. He should never be allowed sully the soil of our motherland again.
Chairman: “And Comrade Kiselev – do you have anything to add?
D. I couldn’t fault my comrades. Solzhenitsyn is not wanted here. Nobody, except poisonous human detritus, has read his books, and nobody but the enemies of our motherland would want to. I’m sure he will serve his western paymasters well.

And so on.

That would be the ideal pattern of discussion for LC denizens, and those of a similar mindset.

Yurrzem: I must confess that I am only a part time looker-in on blogs. I am occasionally tempted to say something that might provide food for thought, although I know at heart, that it’s a waste of time. Blogs are essentially a place where dedicated computer-huggers can spend their time interacting with people in a virtual space where their mutual beliefs can be regularly reinforced and legitimised. Every time I look at one of these blogs there are the same old names engaging yet again in the same tedious and repetitive arguments, the same absence of intellectual honesty. And in a year’s time it’ll be the same. You can’t help but ask what sort of human beings these are, who choose to sit at a computer, especially when the earth is coming alive after the winter. I’ve just got to go back up the garden if you need me, savouring the real world, till next time. Think celandines, stitchwort, wood anemones, frogspawn, catkins. Doesn’t that stir your heart more than a couple of bunches of blokes having a scrap?

Nice trolling there, Trofim. You write a long post for someone who doesn’t care.

Is this the same Sunny Hundal who expects to be taken seriously by mainstream politicians? In which case it’s not very clever to repost Trot slanders about the police then, is it?

The local newspaper, the Bolton News, had a webcam on the roof of a building overlooking Victoria Square, where the rival demos were taking place. Anyone with internet access could watch events unfolding in real time.

For your information, Sunny, the UAF/SWP tried to push past the police in order to occupy the EDL area before the EDL arrived. Unsurprisingly, the police did not allow this so the UAF attacked the police, including chucking a smoke bomb at them. It was a fight they were always going to lose, and that’s what duly happened.

To cover up their failure and ineptitude (making the fascists look good, FFS) the SWP has gone into propaganda overdrive bleating about ‘police brutality’ and you have fallen for it, hook line and sinker.

But weren’t people from the UAF arrested too? Were they not starting trouble as well? Many EDL people at these things are just there for punch up, but that’s the case for UAF people too.

And look, I don’t care one bit for EDL types, but are they reallty ‘fascists’ as described by Sunny H? Maybe idiots, maybe bigots, but fascists? Wrong term – and one that is thrown around far too easily. I wonder, has the author ever referred to radical Islamic groups in Britain with the term ‘fascist’ thrown in so easily?

Here we go. So much for informed discussion.

Yurrzem,

As far as I can see, the last two posts were ‘informed’, in one case actually offering new information… I am not sure how you would see informed discussion, but I would define it as allowing those of different viewpoints to discuss things (and remember, those in the EDL must believe it is the right thing to do, which is a viewpoint, even if we don’t believe them – can you refuse them the right to express themselves?).

Try not to see Trolls under every bridge, otherwise crossing rivers becomes a major issue.

@16 Watchman

take a look at the “against multiculturalism” thread and tell me I’m imagining things.

Yurrzem,

I’m not denying there was a number of open or apparent BNP supporters on that thread, but to call them trolling would be pushing it. Some of them wrote long (and in one case worryingly eloquent) pieces setting out their views, which might appear tendatious, but were related to discussion (other than the general ‘I’m not the Sentinal’ sideshow that often goes on on threads like this…). If you can’t be bothered arguing with the BNP/EDL and refuting their arguments (it’s not the most challenging thing to do), you really need to question your commitment to liberalism.

@18 Watchman

Debate or argument, that’s the point. Debate may shed some light on an issue. The kinds of argument I wish to avoid do no such thing.

Too much of what passes for debate on the web is utter rubbish, just abuse and allegations with no basis other than prejudice. It would be a pity to see the same happen here.

Watchman – did you miss one of our recent guests making threats of personal violence against the family of a regular commenter? That’s trolling, no question about it, and that’s the point at which I decided to leave that thread. If your response to having your argument shown to be bollocks is to threaten to hunt down and commit violence against your interlocutor (and their family) you’re not worth arguing with. I also have to admit to having my doubts about the uniqueness of several of the individuals involved in that thread – as soon as you get rid of one (for example after resorting to threats of violence etc, etc), a new one miraculously appears and starts making the same arguments.

Dunc,

I did wonder about the sequential nature of comments, but if one person they could mix their writing style well at times.

And I did miss the threats of violence, presumably because they were deleted? But that’s not trolling to be exact – that’s crossing the boundary into unacceptable behaviour.

“Too much of what passes for debate on the web is utter rubbish, just abuse and allegations with no basis other than prejudice. It would be a pity to see the same happen here.”

Like your first post @3? An eloquent discussion of the article?

@22 dave

Nope, just waiting for some piece of shit like you to turn up.

Paul Sagar 4

> The misleading media spin on Saturday’s demo is shocking

When you have shown yourself in other LC threads to be hypocritically taking sides – it is a bit much to be quite so very sure here about the wrongness of the other parties?

Your religious hypocrisy was in your posts here:
https://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/03/13/moral-courage-in-alternative-iraq/
(see 3 and 21)

The BBC’s Reporting of the far right is utterly appalling most of the time. A few weeks ago a look north report on how the BNP “accepting” members from ethnic minorities were driving members to the NF made no mention of the fact they were forced to do so by law.

They also had a spokesman from the NF on.

“They also had a spokesman from the NF on.”

Must have been enlightening comment then…

But why shouldn’t the BBC report such a thing? The BNP is a political party with elected representatives, so you can’t ignore it. Something major like the (more?) racist element leaving it to a more extreme party would be newsworthy, a bit like the more democratic Liberal Democrats moving to a more liberal party…