‘Israel says the activists were armed with metal rods, knives, slingshots and two pistols snatched from the troops.’

So, tools and a couple of guns the troops gave them. When somebody tries to justify aggression on the grounds that their opponents had weapons that the aggressors supplied themselves – even inadvertantly – you know you are through the looking glass.

You might find also it easier to swim if you don’t dress up like a character from Warhammer 4000.

Israel has been re-enacting its own Krystal Nacht on the Palestinians for years. It is shameful that a people who were subjected to the terror of the Nazis 60 years ago have become the tormentors.

I have no time for Israel and its brutality of the Palestians, but I’m finding all this a bit lame.

Sally, that seems to be just about your level on every subject … and everyone who takes a different view is ”a troll”.

If this flotilla had set sail from Florida and was sailing to ”free the prisoners of Guantanamo” by using similar tactics, do you not think violence would have been used by US armed forces?

I think that Israel screwed up and got its tactics wrong, just like you can read about now if you look up the Israeli press online.

They have military people saying they used the wrong tactics and should have fired tear gas to clear the decks and should not have absailed down into a waiting group of opposition …. etc.

It is a total lie that Israel commandos met armed resistance (which included knives, slingshots, etc), bare in mind that when this news was circulated (by Israeli PR) no witnesses had spoken to the media or at least had not got over the shock of this pirate like attack on their convoy in International waters (which happens to be illegal).

Now, witnesses have come forward and spoken about their experience and boy do they tell a different story. The following quote I took from BBC website (and a link to this is provided at the end) from Norman Paech a German pro-Palestinian activist, he was on board one of the ships, he said:
“German pro-Palestinian activist Norman Paech said he had only seen wooden sticks being brandished as troops abseiled on to the deck of the ship. Personally I saw two-and-a-half wooden batons that were used… There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives. This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission… This was a clear act of piracy,” he added.

To me its very clear, Israel has a habit of confusing reality with ‘information over-flow’ where many different versions of the same story are talked about by many different people from one side, this then conflicts with the real story and leaves the view totally confused hence less attention is given to the story over all. This is exactly what Israel PR and spokes-people have been saying. I could swear when I was monitoring this story as it happened (and monitored it for another six hours or so) I could have wrote down 6 to 8 different stories which was told by Israel spokes-person.

The fact of the matter is this – Israel has committed a crime on many fronts not to mention the choking of the entire Palestinian population, the information black-out, the killing of innocent Palestinians – activists and many more, Israel has conducting crime on a mass scale and now it needs to answer to the world. Israel cannot handle responsibility and has no justice but a state ruled with mobs, murderers and terrorists.

damon, I think “used the wrong tactics” is probably a slight under statement, given that ten people died and rather a lot were injured. Also, I don’t really see why you’re making a comparison with the US. Do you think that because the US might have done something similar in a situation you just made up it justifies Israel’s actions?

Anyway, having established that we obviously have completely different views on the matter, I have admit that the reason I’m posting is to agree with your remark about Sally’s comment. It’s utterly disgusting.

“Israel has been re-enacting its own Krystal Nacht on the Palestinians for years.
It is shameful that a people who were subjected to the terror of the Nazis 60 years ago have become the tormentors.”

“A people”??????? Equating the actions of the state of Israel with the actions/views of all jews. Yes, I’m familiar with that tactic, it’s the main argument of the modern anti – semite. What, exactly, do you mean by “a people”? Are you aware of the cultural, religious and ethnic differences in the “people” you are talking about or do you prefer to think of jews as some kind of homogeneous mass with a common purpose? And, while we’re at it, what were the Nazis up to in 1950 or, as you prefer to put it, 60 years ago? Do try and get your basic historical facts right, otherwise you end up looking rather stupid. Also, do you employ the “people who were subjected to the terror of the Nazis” line when you criticise gypsies and gays? And the mentally ill? And Socialists, Communists, Russians, Poles, the French etc etc? Or is it something you reserve especially for jews? Oh, and by the way, it was Krystallnacht not Krystall Nacht. One word, not two. Two ls not one. Idiot.

Sally@2 “It is shameful that a people who were subjected to the terror of the Nazis 60 years ago have become the tormentors.”

Got to say I find this kind of talk a little careless to say the least. when you refer to
“a people subjected to the terror of the nazis” – ie the jews – you would do well to remember that most of us live outside Israel, and a decent number have actively opposed to the Israeli state for years.

Your comments are particularly inappropriate for the likes of Hedy Epstein – a holocaust survivor who was actually “subjected to the terror of the Nazis” who is planning to join the next aid flotilla, and doesn’t particularly strike me as having become a tormentor.

Sorry if this seems pedantic, but indicting an entire “people” – to use your phraseology – demands a response.

From sally on the thread about the UKIP Conference on the Bilderberg Group:

“I better sign up for UKip then because that is pretty much how the world is being run for the benifit of a small elite.”

Meant to say shatterface, your warhammer 40k comment made me lol epically

We only really have a few minutes footage of the storming of the Mavi Marmara, and what has been shown of those on the deck attacking the commandos seems to have resulted in their deaths:

Israel is yet to release the names and nationality of the passengers killed in the attack. Yedioth Ahronoth reported this morning that most of them are Turkish nationals. The paper claimed that six of the 9 casualties were identified as ones who took part in the assault on the soldiers.

http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=2838

I shall be very interested to read what the journalists that were on the flotilla have to say when they are released.

Sally, I think your comment at 2 has been criticised comprehensively enough, but have to add my tuppence worth – distasteful and unhelpful.

Compare Gerald Kaufman’s speech in the House of Commons on Israeli policies for Gaza:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

My, my we are all getting a bit squeamish are we not?

What is the point of Israel? Is it not a home land for a particular group of people? Why do the defenders of Israel justify it on the grounds of a religion that according to them was land given to them by God.

Am I saying that all Jews are evil? No I am not. What I am saying is that the state of Israel, which is a JEWISH STATE is increasingly behaving in a fascist way. It locks up a man who dared to say they have nukes. What kind of freedom is that? Of course there are many Jews in Israel who do not agree with it’s govt, but increasingly they are a minority.

” Are you aware of the cultural, religious and ethnic differences in the “people” you are talking about or do you prefer to think of jews as some kind of homogeneous mass with a common purpose? ”

In that case why do they need their own state then?

Sally:

“” Are you aware of the cultural, religious and ethnic differences in the “people” you are talking about or do you prefer to think of jews as some kind of homogeneous mass with a common purpose? ”

In that case why do they need their own state then?”

Answering a question with a question, eh? I’ll assume that you don’t have any idea of how ethnically, culturally, linguistically and, yes, religiously diverse the group of people known as jews are. Your response, in fact, seems to suggest that you do think jews are a homogeneous mass, with a common purpose. Now, which other group of people thought the same? Need some clues? Germany …. 1930s and 40s …………. sorry I forgot, history isn’t your strong point. You thought the Nazis came to power in 1950, didn’t you?

“What is the point of Israel? Is it not a home land for a particular group of people? Why do the defenders of Israel justify it on the grounds of a religion that according to them was land given to them by God.”

Actually, no, not all Israelis (or defenders of Israel) justify Israel’s existence on religious grounds, but being an ignorant racist I doubt you’re aware of the politics of either the people who were involved in Israel’s formation or the people who live there now.

“Am I saying that all Jews are evil?”

Well what you said was:

” It is shameful that a people who were subjected to the terror of the Nazis 60 years ago have become the tormentors.”

which looks very much like an attack on all jews, not a criticism of the state of Israel, as you claim

So, you’ve demonstrated your stupidity and racism, what’s the next trick you have lined up for our entertainment?

“So, you’ve demonstrated your stupidity and racism, what’s the next trick you have lined up for our entertainment?”

I have done no such thing. Glad that you find the death of people an entertainment, but then judging by your idiotic response that is not surprising.

” I’ll assume that you don’t have any idea of how ethnically, culturally, linguistically and, yes, religiously diverse the group of people known as jews are. Your response, in fact, seems to suggest that you do think jews are a homogeneous mass, with a common purpose. Now, which other group of people thought the same? Need some clues? Germany …. 1930s and 40s …………. sorry I forgot, history isn’t your strong point. ”

Translation. …… Waffle, waffle, waffle and no attempt to answer the question. So I will try again. If jews are so diverse why do they need their own state?

“Actually, no, not all Israelis (or defenders of Israel) justify Israel’s existence on religious grounds, but being an ignorant racist I doubt you’re aware of the politics of either the people who were involved in Israel’s formation or the people who live there now.”

Tranlation… Huge dollops of waffle now, but no answer.

I did make one mistake which I happily admit too, and that was the time span of 60 years since world war 2, and that just shows my age. Since for many years of my life it was not so long ago. I guess I am just getting old.

Boris the Badger – what I would find most refreshing would be if people could come at this with different opinions and be able to engage with each other and not go straight to hostile camps.
I heard an hour of that this morning on the useless Nicky Campbell radio Five Live phone in programme, where he lines up some pro Israel supporters who talk of ”anti-semitism” in their second sentence, and these slightly bonkers Bianca Jagger types who support the aims of the flotilla to Gaza.

It gets you nowhere.
I’m against the Israeli blockade of Gaza, and find this ship thing to have been an embarassing stunt – that cost lives – but achieved its dishonerable objective.

And I mean dishonorable like where I am in Belfast … and every day I see monuments and murals to the ten IRA men who chose to kill themselves in an act of war in 1981.

Things like this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/troubles/images/troubles_7.jpg

http://www.unc.edu/~briman/ireland/bobbysands.jpg

http://img2.photographersdirect.com/img/12753/wm/pd1556092.jpg

It sucks IMO, And this flotilla have now got their martyrs which I think they will be quite pleased with.

Sally, I do enjoy moron baiting but, with you, it’s just too easy.

“Glad that you find the death of people an entertainment, but then judging by your idiotic response that is not surprising.” You’re obviously confused, I haven’t given any indication anywhere that I find anyone’s death entertaining. I think it was perfectly clear that I found your ramblings entertaining, nothing else.

“… no attempt to answer the question..” well Sal, my old racist chum, answer mine then I’ll answer yours. I asked more questions than you and I asked them first. Fair’s fair, eh?

“Tranlation… Huge dollops of waffle now, but no answer.” pretty much the same response as above Sal. It’s not going well, is it?

“I did make one mistake which I happily admit too…” no, more than one (including your use of too instead of to in the sentence I have just quoted). You also made this mistake:

” It is shameful that a people who were subjected to the terror of the Nazis 60 years ago have become the tormentors.”

ie you projected blame for an act by the state of Israel onto jews generally. Thus demonstrating your anti – semitic credentials. That was a mistake, wasn’t it? Or maybe it wasn’t.

@15 “what I would find most refreshing would be if people could come at this with different opinions and be able to engage with each other and not go straight to hostile camps.”

Fair enough, but the positions of the main protagonists seem to be too far apart for that to happen any time soon. There have been various shades of right wing government in Israel for the last 30 years or more and whichever government is elected is usually dependent on the support of, not to put to fine a point on it, complete mentalist religious parties to retain power. On the other hand the Palestinian resistance has moved away from Arab Nationalism and Socialism towards islamist groups which are every bit as barking mad as the Israeli religious right. Given this situation, it’s difficult to see much chance of reaching agreement on anything. Add to this the fact that even the current Americam government isn’t brave enough to denounce Israel and muslims the world over are united by a sense of injustice perpetrated against their brothers in Palestine (a substantial proportion of whom are, ironically, christians and who suffer persecution by islamic fanatics) and it doesn’t get any better.

I do take a pessimistic view of these things, though.