Jan Moir used this tragic death to take a swipe at the hip hop music scene which she claims to be rampent with misogyny.
Yes a Daily Mail writer can take the moral high ground about woman hating. The same Daily Mail that claims women routinely lie about being raped!

“Some commentators say that Claudia was a victim of “hip hop” culture. She was actually a victim of something much more universal.”

Yes, poor decision making. While those who promote such idiocy should be reviled, people who voluntarily undertake such measures are responsible for their own actions and any consequences baring negligence/malpractice for which there are criminal and civil penalties.

1. Dan Factor – “Jan Moir used this tragic death to take a swipe at the hip hop music scene which she claims to be rampent with misogyny.”

And so did Diane Abbot in the above article.

“Yes a Daily Mail writer can take the moral high ground about woman hating. The same Daily Mail that claims women routinely lie about being raped!”

Well I don’t know any one woman routinely lies about rape, but that a large number of women who make rape accusations do so falsely is well established and is kind of hard to deny. Estimated percentages run as high as 40 or 60%. Not that I believe either figure. But 10% wouldn’t be unreasonable.

But that is not the main point. The odd thing about the Daily Mail is that it is mainly aimed at women. The closest Britain comes to a Fascist newspaper is mainly written by women for women. That has always struck me as odd. So it may be misogynist, but only in the sense that women are often cruel to other women.

What Ms. Abbott fails to mention, of course, is how much of what this woman did to herself was her choice. She did it to herself. No sane person would fly to America and have an illegal operation in an airport motel. Especially once they got the industrial silicone glue-gun out. Yet no one forced her.

It’s a trend where, instead of women following the male example of being hung up on body image*, men are being convinced they aren’t hung up enough. It’s hardly profitable to stop women spending on cosmetic enhancement. Much better men step up to the plate too.

Because we are worth it too.

*I know this doesn’t take into account men’s role in the formation of that body image.

@3

“that a large number of women who make rape accusations do so falsely is well established and is kind of hard to deny. ”

“Well-established” by the Hate Mail and Sexpress, of course… the number of rapes that do happen and are not prosecuted dwarfs the number of false allegations by a massive magnitude. Do some research before throwing around your misogynist memes.

@2

Do you really think that everyone lives as atoms, completely free in their choices and unhindered by any outside influence? In that case, why do vanity companies spend so much on advertising?

@3 do you have any background in rape prosecution etc?

If so fair enough.

If not, saying you don’t trust some random stats of 40-60% but then plucking 10% out of thin air as seemingly reasonable seems odd and helpful.

I doubt anyone doubts some rape allegations are false and also sees the negative implications it has on genuine cases in setting up the law and in the public eye. But guessing figures doesn’t add anything.

Diane,

Claudia didn’t die in vain, she died in a hotel room.

Really, you read too much into this. She was a silly girl, plain and simple.

Anyone who thinks that buying a bigger butt will lead to greater happiness must not only be stupid but also quite unobservant, failing to notice the increasing number of sad looking obese people all around us.

Instead of getting a ‘whole load a booty’ she got a lot of Dow Corning and was busy “tweeting” about it until her last day. Silly cow.

Please, don’t tell me I am the only person who thinks this is a bit comic as well as tragic?

So, instead of blaming plastic surgeons try blaming yourself for being part of a 13 year government that allowed children to pass through school with s@@t in their brains instead of common sense and knowledge.

Why is it that whenever someone uses the words “plain and simple” I feel that it must be something complex and interesting? Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure this woman could have done with more advice, education and – for all I know – aptitude but preaching the virtues of common sense while assuming that a culture saturated in absurd images of physical ideals, heavy implications that one gains fulfilment through celebrity and, Chris, more advertising than Dennis Bagley‘s wet dreams won’t lead some people into weird quests for bodily enhancement is – well – silly, plain and simple.

One way to combat the rise of inanity and vacuousness in the media is to not talk about it. By constantly bringing up Jordan, whether to praise or vilify her, you only increase the presence of such non-entities in the national consciousness.

Or, of course, you could regulate everything to death.

What have you, Diane Abbott MP, as an elected representative, done to safeguard the future of our children etc.? I’m curious.

” The closest Britain comes to a Fascist newspaper is mainly written by women for women.”

Well, Mosley’s BUF were actually relatively progressive on women’s issues if I recall correctly.

So, instead of blaming plastic surgeons try blaming yourself for being part of a 13 year government that allowed children to pass through school with s@@t in their brains instead of common sense and knowledge.

Wtf – what kind of an accusation is this? What sort of curriculum would you have preferred, or what would you have the govt do?

5. Mr S. Pill – ““Well-established” by the Hate Mail and Sexpress, of course… the number of rapes that do happen and are not prosecuted dwarfs the number of false allegations by a massive magnitude. Do some research before throwing around your misogynist memes.”

Actually in this case it was an FBI study that I happened to come across recently. You have no idea how many rapes happen and are not prosecuted. We can agree that some are, but how many we cannot know. Because without a trial we have no guilty person. We know that the number of alleged rapes is much higher than the number of estimated false reports. Sure. I would even go so far as to agree with you and say that I would guess the number of actual rapes that go unpunished is higher than the number of false allegations. But I don’t know either.

And if you think reality is misogynist, you need help.

How can you have a massive magnitude by the way?

6. cynical/realist – “If not, saying you don’t trust some random stats of 40-60% but then plucking 10% out of thin air as seemingly reasonable seems odd and helpful.”

Odd and helpful? What an interesting combination. I have seen a variety of studies and reports. The number was only a guess on my part, but going by the available evidence, it seemed reasonable to me.

“I doubt anyone doubts some rape allegations are false and also sees the negative implications it has on genuine cases in setting up the law and in the public eye. But guessing figures doesn’t add anything.”

I don’t know what else we are going to do in this situation because without some infallible means of checking if someone is telling the truth, we are all going to be stuck with estimates. I am sure a lot of people doubt that any rape allegations are false. I am sure some here do. Just go over to Comment is Free and claim that some rape allegations are false and you will see people denying it is even possible. Of course most people know that some allegations are probably false but that is one of those things we are not allowed to admit any more.

but that is one of those things we are not allowed to admit any more.

Is that a bit like how you “can’t talk about immigration any more” while talking about little else?

14. Cylux – “Is that a bit like how you “can’t talk about immigration any more” while talking about little else?”

Amazing. It is like you can read my mind. Although immigration is the wrong parallel. We can all talk about how much Britain has become now it is a vibrant, diverse multicultural society.

The choice to have cosmetic surgery was the choice of the unfortunate Ms Aderotimi but such choices are not taken in a vacuum. Why someone should want to have unnecessary surgery should be a matter of concern and subject to inquiry.

We know that magazines aimed at young women (and now young men too) project absurdly idealised body images. We know there is a celebrity culture where success can be achieved by looking a particular way. Teenagers and young adults are particularly vulnerable to suggestions that they might be happier if they changed themselves in some way.

Is this something new? I would suggest only in its extent and that the rewards that a few succesful people achieve are greater. Instead of talking about regulation isn’t there a bit of Spirit Level here? Isn’t there also something about self-confidence?

@13 – way to pick on a typo.

You plucked a figure out of the air. You have absolutly no way of having the ever mearest glimpse of a clue what you are talking about. But 10% seems reasonable, so 10% it is eh?

What I think you will find in the vast majority is people getting angry when the potential for false allegations is used as a legitimate reason for stopping tightening up the procedures, laws and policies around rape in this country.

Our society at present seems to have based its practice on rape on the theory that its better to allow guilty men to get away with it than it is to even marginally increase the potential for more women to make false claims. The establishment has sided firmly with the male side on this one, and it leads to an atmosphere where women (or men) do not feel comfortable in coming forward for fear of being treated like a criminal themselves.

@3. I don’t deny that some women make false allegations but I doubt it’s the “large number” you claim.

I agree that the culture of idealised beauty is damaging, and it’s got little if anything to do with hip hop. As you point out, tv and print media are more likely culprits. But it would be nice if you didn’t take the piss out of what some women wanted by dismissing it as “over-sized bottom, puffed up “duck” lips or grotesquely big breasts”, let alone try to single out Jordan for blame.

What’s the message here? “Women with poor taste get plastic surgery; now responsible for other women with poor taste who die from same surgery”? Should women that you, personally, judge to naturally have horrid big bums, “duck lips” or over-sized breasts be seeking plastic surgery to suit your own idealist image of womenhood?

” The closest Britain comes to a Fascist newspaper ”

Fortunately, not very close.

Without it coming across hair-splitting ‘no true Scotsman’ like defence – but this wasn’t result of hip-hop culture. ‘Low crade commercial gangster nonsense that parades as hip-hop’ culture maybe.

‘Wtf – what kind of an accusation is this? What sort of curriculum would you have preferred, or what would you have the govt do?’

Aren’t you always proposing social engineering through the education system?

The article is infantilising: Aderotimi made an unfortunate choice, but it was hers to make.

And its no use blaming the media here as, if anything, media representations of female beauty tend towards the anorexic. If hip-hop culture celebrates the rounder figure more luck to it.

As well as a culture of the idealized beauty there is the culture of doing nothing but having attributes which fit the ideal. This young girl was not deluded, we do have a culture of celebrity which has little to do with talent or artistic ability which includes programmes like ‘Pop Idol’. On nearly every magazine I see in newsagents there is a picture of Jordan saying this or that (usually totally mundane) and even a t.v. programme dedicated to giving her a platform for more mundane rantings. And just to add to the Jordan label are four autobiographies (no doubt ghost-written)
How can we change the poor body image of young women and their ambitions towards celebrity when all around their perceptions are reinforced by reality.

19. Chaise Guevara – “I agree that the culture of idealised beauty is damaging, and it’s got little if anything to do with hip hop. As you point out, tv and print media are more likely culprits.”

There is a large market for women of African-descent with large backsides is there?

Given the trouble that even stick-thin Naomi Campbell has getting covers, I would have thought that in this specific case the wider media is off the hook.

There being pretty much one market for African-descent women with large backsides

I can see why Abbott decided to focus on plastic surgeons, the suppliers as it were. One often unremarked piece of regulation is the restriction of the number of paracetamol that can be bought at one time, which has led to a decrease in the number of suicides. You can still buy enough pills to top yourself if you just buy your maximum from several different shops but strangely very few people do, the extra hassle puts off the depressed from their course of action.

Similarly if plastic surgeons, whom you would assume are trained medical professions and as such should know better, were to put hurdles*, but not exactly barriers, in the way of obtaining cosmetic surgery, might that not put off the bodily dysmorphic from potentially damaging surgery?

*Such as consulting a physiatrist to ensure that they are making the right choice for them.

“There is a large market for women of African-descent with large backsides is there?

Given the trouble that even stick-thin Naomi Campbell has getting covers, I would have thought that in this specific case the wider media is off the hook.

There being pretty much one market for African-descent women with large backsides”

Not really. If black women are told on TV that having a large backside is good – which seems to be the case a lot of the time – it’s going to have a effect. It doesn’t really matter if they read that in a magazine, watch it on America’s Hottest Honey or infer it from a music video.

And in any case, I was talking about the persuit of unrealisitic physical perfection, not just one variant of it. And cosmetic surgery outdates hip hop: so much for that theory.

Sunny,
Re: comment 11

“Wtf – what kind of an accusation is this? What sort of curriculum would you have preferred, or what would you have the govt do?”

Please, don’t get me wrong, there are certain facts in the article I agree with, however Diane Abbott has written it without once mentioning the crass stupidity of the girl in question – preferring to elevate her to the comfy zone of victim status. A few more articles like this and Claudia Aderotimi will be vying with Cardinal Newman for canonization.

Claudia Aderotimi travelled abroad (alarm bells wring anyone?) to have a dodgy operation performed in a dodgy hotel room (Still no alarm bells?). The silly woman in question probably showed more care buying goods at a street market than she did with operations to her own body.

I would have expected that schools teach children how to care for themselves by reducing the risk of infection by going to the toilet, cleaning their hands, avoiding unnecessary incisions, not letting people inject things into you unless they can prove they are reputable professionals doing it in a proper operating theatre.

“Beware of strangers making great promises” and “Expect to be shafted wherever possible” should be 1/2 hour lesson on to the curriculum.

I realise that it is unlikely that the phrase “Caveat emptor” will met with great enthusiasm in most secondary schools, however the alternative to “buyer beware” can only be “Fingers crossed + blame everyone else”.

@19. Well said.

I know the aim is to show women (and increasingly men) are being driven to extreames by our culture. But using terms like “grotesquely big breasts” is not the answer.

My wife’s boobs are the same size as Jordan. She’s been self-concious of it since the first bra. And now is getting used to one side of the media suggesting she has “grotesque” breasts. Its done to counter the argument that bigger-is-better I know (and I know the silicon boobs sported by Jordan have not the mearest hint of natural about them, which adds to the call to label them grotesque). But she’s very self aware of it anyway, and such language only adds to that and upsets her greatly.

If we want to start getting rid of the inclination to define body types as good or bad, we do need to be careful with words like “grotesque” or “horrid”, as in doing so to sway those seeking to aquire such you only cause the same problem in those already possessing them.

19. Yes, quite.
The body fascism which has that women must look a certain way, and women then naturally enough desiring to be that way, and dieting/putting on weight/having surgery to look that way is only slightly worse than the attitude that any woman wanting to diet/put on weight/have surgery is somewhat lacking in intelligence or conned by body fascism. Maybe she really does have a big nose, flat butt, tiny boobs, whatever. This attitude will also reflect on those of us who naturally have big boobs (no surgery, honest!) and who are not intellectually challenged.

Slagging off this unfortunate woman is not the way to do it. I detect a bit of misogyny and classism here. Maybe racism too.

Wow, some of these comments. It’s great to know human compassion is alive and well.

So Much for Subtlety

Actually, the rate of false accusations of rape are around the average for any other crime, and lower than that for false accusations for benefit and insurance fraud. Estimate and crime stats put it between 3-8%

You can read more about the stats here:
False accusation stats: Fawcett Society report on ‘Rape: The Facts’
Rape rate stats: Fawcett Society report on ‘Rape: The Facts’ and the BCS figures cited here: http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2010/11/29/rape-statistics-what-can-we-rely-on/

Of course, some accusations of false accusation occur when a woman is convicted for perverting the course of justice by falsely retracting a true allegation, leading to recent new guidelines from the CPS.

It is estimated that between 40,000 – 104,000 rapes happen in the UK every year, with an un reported rate of between 40-80% and a conviction rate of around 6%.

These figures are from:
Rape conviction and reporting rates: http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/crime-prevention/latest-crime-statistics
Rape rate stats: Fawcett Society report on ‘Rape: The Facts’ and the BCS figures cited here: http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2010/11/29/rape-statistics-what-can-we-rely-on/

The figures are gathered from the Home Office and centres/charities etc who will have knowledge of where crimes happen that aren;t reported to the police.

Liberal Conspiracy – apologies for derailing the conversation away from the very pertinent and important issue about unrealistic body ideals but just feel it is important when people are throwing random numbers around saying that women lie about rape we need to get some real stats into the mix!

I really would advise

How can anyone take seriously an article which somehow links Jordan and hip-hop culture?

Especially because the ‘hip-hop culture’ (we are in 1985 aren’t we?) female role models (and I am assuming r’n'b is meant here) are probably Rhianna and Beyonce. Not exactly huge in the breast or bottom departments in either case; not thin either – both seem to be their natural shape if exposed to regimes of training and presumably healthy eating. Since ogling pop stars is not actually normal behaviour on this site, I suppose I should actually make a point out of it though – and that is that actual contemporary cultures, such as the modern descendents of hip-hop and the like, tend to be more concerned about people being themselves and what they produce – Rhianna and Beyonce are where they are not because they are nice-looking (that helped once they got there, undoubtedly) but because they have the ability to deliver their chosen genre of music well. There has been an increasing trend of late for success in music to go less on looks and more on ability (cue counter-examples; note that I say a trend).

Those who are obsessed with body shape are in ‘celebrity’ culture, something very different from ‘hip-hop’ culture. This is not a youth movement, but a movement I would associate with lack of aspiration, transferral of experiences rather than valuing your own and ultimately a failure of education. Jordan is perhaps a figurehead for this (although she herself seems to be pretty different from her ‘fans’ – she lives a country-life type lifestyle, horses and all…) but the culture is best expressed by the front of those magazines at the supermarket till, with made up stories (attributing ‘friends’). It is a fantasy world for those with no real imagination.

So for someone to conflate youth movements (as music still vaguely remains…) and celeberity culture is not just uninformed and wierd, it seems almost deliberately ignorant. I though Ms Abbot was better informed than that.

the amountof force rapes ,is due to the police treeting this serious by putting all its resources in to investigations straight away, that when things come uop like women who have said there drinks were spiked at friendsparties, but ar social parties, they’ve forgot to take into ccount that free drinks that are mixed spirits tend to be higher in alcohol than the drinker realises, similar fallse allegations made by people with mental issues agaisnt (TAXI) DRIVERS are normally dismissed within in days baring in mind its estimated there are 800 sexual assaults in the U.K a day and only 25% are reported, where its recognised that there is an asslt of some kind (accepting that a punch in the breast or touching of a behind 0maybe downgraded to common assault later on, then there is probably of 40% falsely reported ones (this does not include a alleged secual assault,) thats later down graded to not sexual but still assault,

This sad story can’t be blamed except in the most narrow sense to one particular fashion; the demands of certain fashion have for centuries had awful effects upon those who feel obliged to follow them. Women at one point in Britain would have their floating ribs removed in order to wear ultra-tight corsets; even those who didn’t still could suffer various internal injuries.

There is something interesting in this case, a kind of reversal from the norm, as far more women seem to think that their behinds are too big, not too small. Arabella Weir had a running joke about it on The Fast Show; perhaps it’s time to rerun that series, and then maybe some women won’t be tempted to fatten their behinds and risk serious consequences.

I have no idea if the surgical risks were ever properly explained to Claudia Aderotimi before consenting to silicone being injected into her?
From media reports it seems silicone found it’s way into the blood stream precipitating an acute cardiac event.

But talk about a scatter gun approach to apportioning blame – scanning the article you can take your pick from;
* “hip hop” culture, or,
* “an era when too many young women are brainwashed into believing that, artificially pumping up some aspect of their body, is the road to fame and fortune”, or,
* “Plastic surgeons have a lot to answer for”, or,
* “television “makeover” shows”.

And of course, ‘JORDAN’ ………….

In keeping with ‘victim’ orientated culture it is usually difficult, if not impossible to to include either the individual, or that person’s family when the ensuing blame fest begins to gather pace.

Diane Abbot is asking us to believe that some of today’s adults are such poor decision makers that they are willing to risk their own lives after being buffeted by hip hop culture, make over shows and plastic surgeons (and JORDAN)?
Well I suppose somebody, or something must be to blame – you only have to look as far as the Daily Mail to realise that?

@35 so you don’t think there is anything we should be concerned about in this case? Is it an indication of an increasing trend or just another thing that people do and of no concern to the rest of us?

[36] developments in technology will inevitably increase choice and with it various moral and ethical dilemmas.

When it comes to surgery (especially relatively untried procedures) the first rule is that it is impossible to eliminate all risk and consent is only meaningful when based on an informed choice.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of cosmetic surgery I think it unlikely that most would prefer ever stricter regulation over freedom of choice to whatever it is people want to do with their own bodies – after all some die after tongue piercing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8302444.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1320480/Tongue-piercing-kills-woman-birthday-develops-blood-poisoning.html

By the way I have no idea if JORDAN has had her tongue pierced so we may not be able to blame her for these two cases.

25. Cylux – “Similarly if plastic surgeons, whom you would assume are trained medical professions and as such should know better, were to put hurdles*, but not exactly barriers, in the way of obtaining cosmetic surgery, might that not put off the bodily dysmorphic from potentially damaging surgery?”

The problem with this is once you stop treating adults like adults, where do you stop? Why single out cosmetic surgery? Personally I don’t have any problems with it because I recognise it is a prejudice. But how would you feel about this same passage with the words “cosmetic surgery” replaced by “abortion”? Is it not a woman’s body to do with as she pleases?

26. Chaise Guevara – “Not really. If black women are told on TV that having a large backside is good – which seems to be the case a lot of the time – it’s going to have a effect. It doesn’t really matter if they read that in a magazine, watch it on America’s Hottest Honey or infer it from a music video.”

If. But come on. When are Black women, or any women, ever told on TV that having a large backside is a good thing? Outside, of course, Hip Hop records. If anything they are constantly deluged with the idea that small and thin is best. Better than best really. The only acceptable form of women’s bodies. I bet no mainstream Western media, apart from that appealing to African Americans, has ever even hinted a large backside is good. An episode of Scrubs perhaps.

So Much for Subtlety

I’m sorry, i’ve just realised that you are making random and fairly absurd statements based on what you think happens, rather than from an informed opinion.

Maybe go and talk to some young black women about what body pressures they have, what messages they receive about their body, and then maybe you’ll learn something. There are lots of different pressures on women to fulfill body ideals. For example, all women were having it shoved down their throats recently by the press that a big breasted, big hipped body a la christina hendricks. Kat Banyard quotes some interesting research in her book The Equality Illusion about the relationships young women of different ethnicities have with their bodies and media images.

And please do check out those rape stats i linked to, to avoid making up statistics in the future.

@ 38 So Much for Subtlety

While you may have come across the idea of a large backside being sexy from, well, Baby Got Back, I assume that the notion wasn’t invented by hip hop artists. Are you saying this is a hip hop thing or a black thing? The first would be silly, the second stereotypical (yes, it does seem to be more popular in black US culture, but it’s hardly restricted to that).

In any case, as I said before: the specific body-part ideal is not the point. Reduction and enlargement surgery can both be damaging or lethal. The OP article quickly descends into knee-jerk bigotry, but its central point is a good one: the issue is wider than “woman decides big backsides are good, possibly due to hip hop influences; has botched operation and dies”. The broader, more relevant point is that the media maintain ridiculous ideals of beauty/sexiness, and that some unconfident and/or impressionable people go to harmful lengths to achieve these ideals.

Making this all about hip hop is a bit like saying suicide is caused by rope because you once heard of someone hanging themselves.

@38 For a start you would need to replace “bodily dysmorphic” in my original passage as well, but to be quite honest hurdles already exist for women seeking an abortion in the uk: http://www.abortionrights.org.uk/content/view/17/107/
So it’s a bit of a moot point.
Also, who said only women were seeking cosmetic surgery? Plenty of implants for guys these days too ya know.