[deleted]

ps. It is good to have seen the Nowegian leaders reaction to these events

“Our answer is, more openness, more democracy.” – Norwegian PM Jens Stoltenberg

You should learn from him, not from the racists.

Paul Perrin @ 2,

You say:

ps. It is good to have seen the Nowegian leaders reaction to these events

“Our answer is, more openness, more democracy.” – Norwegian PM Jens Stoltenberg

You should learn from him, not from the racists.

Perhaps you do think that, if so, jolly good.

It is just a tad odd that your first post here got deleted. What could you said for that to happen?

Perhaps it should come as little surprise that psychopathic maniacs who can perpetrate actions like those unleashed on the unsuspecting people of Norway yesterday would find the EDL and other unsavoury groups on the right to their liking. In the end, they all inhabit the same fetid swamp of intolerance, bigotry and fundamentalist totalitarianism – the only difference is how deeply mired in it they are.

Such individuals and groups don’t even have the self awareness to realise that they actually have more in common with the islamic fundamentalists they purport to hate so much, than they do with the ordinary people in Norway or anywhere else they have the effrontery and arrogance to claim to represent or be trying to “protect” from whichever psychotic nightmare they are in thrall to.

Political and religious fundamentalists of all stripes have to be resisted. No free society can ever totally insulate itself from such actions; we must speak with one voice, whether in reply to those responsible for Oslo yesterday, 7/7 in London, 9/11 in the USA, the Atocha station bombs in Madrid, the Bali bombings, or any other unspeakable barbarity performed in the name of some perverted religious or political animus.

We will not permit the Breivik’s of this world to bomb and shoot their way to the fullfilment of their warped and nauseating world view.

@douglas clark Just showed the flawed logic of the argurment being made by sunny – mirrors the flawed arguments of the racists. Sunny clearly didn’t want his readers to make up their own minds. Clearly he doesn’t rate your inteligence.

– mirrors the flawed arguments of the racists

Not really. You hysterically accused me of being as bad as the racists after I said “he rejected European tolerance” – when I was referring to European tolerance to minorities. That sentence has now been amended and fully explained.

@6. Sunny Hundal: “You hysterically accused me of being as bad as the racists after I said “he rejected European tolerance” – when I was referring to European tolerance to minorities. That sentence has now been amended and fully explained.”

Given that Paul Perrin has not been banned from LC and that you, Sunny, have tweaked the OP, I think that it is fair to ask for further comment. If the OP has been tweaked, why is the correction unacknowledged?

“He attacked multi-culturalism:”

I’m trying to figure out the logic of this, because I’m a rather simple man and complicated ideas take me some time to grasp. Could it be this: this man committed a dreadful act AND this awful man didn’t like multiculturalism, and therefore – bear with me – if someone doesn’t like multiculturalism, then they are like this man? Is that what Sunny’s trying to say? It’s all much too subtle for me. I do remember that them London bombers praised Islam, so, erm. Oh, I give up. It’s too complicated. Wasn’t Hitler a non-smoker, by the way?

Could it be this: this man committed a dreadful act AND this awful man didn’t like multiculturalism, and therefore – bear with me – if someone doesn’t like multiculturalism, then they are like this man? Is that what Sunny’s trying to say?

If he is he’s also saying that if you don’t like Marxists you’re like this man.

‘If he is he’s also saying that if you don’t like Marxists you’re like this man.’

I don’t like Marxists, but that’s because they murdered more people than the Nazis, not because I’m homicidal myself.

Also, Sunny has not only criticised multi-culturalism himself in the past but claimed to have been responsible for its downfall.

You are indeed very slow Trofim. But then that doesn’t surprise me…

So far we’re merely reporting on comments he has made online. You go ahead and make up your own conclusions of what you think it says or what I’m trying to say. People like yourself and shatterface will continue to make up stuff about what I say or what you think I’m saying regardless.

Shatterface –

That, in essence, was my point.

Wow, on BBC News: “The attacks sparked strong international condemnation, with US President Barack Obama expressing his condolences and offering support.”

That level of condolence can solve the world’s problems.

After some reflection and delving into my rusty knowledge of formal logic – or lack of it – I think I’ve got it now. Sunny’s saying that if you have a sufficiently strong dislike of Islam and/or multiculturalism, then there is a strong probability that you will go out and kill 90 odd people. By the way, I feel I should let everyone know that no one can compete with me in the admiring Islam stakes. Curiously, just since this incident in Oslo I’ve begun to feel a strong liking for it. Honest.

@13 Trofim

Or perhaps more likely than Sunny holding the views you impute, you are wilfully trying to steer the argument away from the linkages between fundamentalist nutters and their apologists, and the horrors perpetrated by them, and towards some cheap point scoring about the logical concomitants of Sunny’s argument as you have shoe horned it into your narrow view?

Nice work.

If people feel un-represented in something that matters to them, they will still find a way of making their point.

Terrorism shows when politics is broken – the more that someone supports the way things are (in the face of terrorism), the more responsible they are for the terrorism and the more the will seek to find others to blame for it.

Politics grew out of a desire to end negotiation by riot, politics has grown way out of control, it needs to be slashed back to basics as riot (or violence) replaces our twisted, demented, perverted version of politics as the only way for real people to be heard.

http://free-english-people.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-were-norwayoslo-bombings-really.html

“Given that Paul Perrin has not been banned from LC and that you, Sunny, have tweaked the OP, I think that it is fair to ask for further comment. If the OP has been tweaked, why is the correction unacknowledged?”

That argument has not been addressed.

@17 Because it’s about as important an argument as “why isn’t this floor swept up”. A quick look at Perrin’s blog should give you a good idea as to the content of his deleted comment if you’re that desperate to know what it said.

@cylux – as Sunny has changed his posting in response to my first (deleted) comment, if it is a ‘correction’ as he says (not a change of content as some may suspect) then the least he can do is give me credit for highlighting his ‘error’, and thank me.

When was he convicted?

@18. Cylux: “A quick look at Perrin’s blog should give you a good idea…” And you, Cylux, have to move on. Change or die.

The most obvious parallel with the events in Norway is Timothy McVeigh who perpetrated the Oklahoma bombing outrage on 19 April 1995:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

As initially with this horrific outage in Norway, the immediate, instinctive assumption was that it must be the work of Islamic terrorists. Not so. There are other kinds of social psychopaths around.

Btw I object to labelling this “right-wing”. McVeigh believed there was too much government intervention, hence the bombing of government offices in Oklahoma. But the Nazis in Germany wanted more state intervention and control, not less. It is logically absurd to apply the same politcal label to both fascists, who advocate more state control, and to extremist liberatarians, who want little or none.

22
Just lately on LC I’ve noticed the word ‘facsist and facsism’ being bandied around to describe anything that apparantly the particular writer doesn’t like.
It’s about time those posting on LC learnt what facsism really is or it will end up being meaningless when there are threads that specifically discuss the subject.

@21 Are you threatening me?

For insights into real Fascism, there was an instructive BBCTV series with much archived newsreel, now available on DVD: The Nazis – A Warning from History:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nazis-Warning-History-DVD/dp/B0001MIQ94/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1311449301&sr=1-1

Parts have been posted on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV57aZmKORk

@24. Cylux: “Are you threatening me?”

Yeah, I’ll kill you with a smile.

And if you take those words literally, you have misunderstood me.

I wouldn’t have thought the EDL were militant enough for this guy. They generally don’t advocate killing anyone, and say they’re not even racist.

Anyone ever see that english language Norwegian anti-immigrant, anti-muslim blog by ”Fjordman”?
It was pretty hardcore and I’m sure this chap must have been a regular on it.
It says somewhere that he even claimed to be this Fjordman on occasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman

@Bob B

The right has stood for “traditional morality” and the establishment for far longer than it has stood for free markets, if indeed there are no commonalities between libertarians and fascists, that just means that libertarians aren’t rightists. In practice though, there’s a reason most libertarians are happier dealing with jesus freaks and racists than with liberals and anti-state socialists, and that’s because the same impulse -a respect for hierarchy and hatred of attacks on the powerful- underlies all the apparently disparate rightist positions.

I think Sunny is right to point at the wider political and cultural hinterland to these events which will determine if it is a freak occurrence or likely to be repeated.
Taking the UK- After the tube bombings and 9.11 there was at the very least , a significant minority of support and a very broad lack of condemnation in what we are told are ordinary Muslim communities. We also find attitudes that are clearly fertile territory for terrorisst. We know that a great many plots are tracked by the security services and at least one major act of murder was averted .
By comparison the EDL are a tiny and inconsequential group , the BNP polled about 1% and there is in this country at least, no irrational anti Islamic movement of significance per se , although there is , in my view, justifiable concern
The picture of the continent is rather different though and far right politics of various sorts is a part of the picture
Perhaps Sunny might wish to take a historical long view and accept that the moderate British Conservative tradition is a good one and his endless abuse and
denigration of British values is wilfully wrong headed as is his default support for any immigrant community over the British and English people whatever the respective merits of their contributions may be
A thoughtful commentator now would be tying these events to the far right of Europe and the growing ethnic intolerance even in quite mainstream circles.

Perhaps the left wing assumption that anything European is better than anything British might also be re-examined

@Mercy

Several early standard bearers of the libertarian movement in America – such as Hayek and Von Mises – were refugees from the Nazis. In Hayek’s terms, they regarded central planning and state controls for the allocation of resources as the road to serfdom. Hayek specifically said that he wasn’t a Conservative.

I’ve posted several times that compared with most other industrialised economies, the economies of Britain and Germany performed relatively well after the trough of the slump in 1931/2. But their respective mixes of government economic policies were very different. The Nazis introduced an extensive array of controls over prices, wages and foreign exchange transactions to contain the market pressures generated by public works spending to create jobs and then spending on armaments.

I don’t often look at sites like the ”Little Green Footballs” one, but just did, and see the blame game and people running for cover has started.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/38924_Pamela_Geller_Lashes_Out-_The_Little_Green_Shew

Breivik explicitly admires Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and “Fjordman:”

Some people worried about getting their collars felt. Particularly that Norweigan blogger Fjordman who has denied anything to do with the killer on ”The Gates of Vienna” website where he was a regular blogger.
The police will be all over their websites now.

@29 Paul Newman

“Perhaps Sunny might wish to take a historical long view and accept that the moderate British Conservative tradition is a good one and his endless abuse and
denigration of British values is wilfully wrong headed as is his default support for any immigrant community over the British and English people whatever the respective merits of their contributions may be”

Or perhaps you might open your eyes and admit that your criticism is wildly overblown? I certainly don’t always agree with Sunny or his views, but your characterisation of his position is a grotesque parody.

Regulars on this site will be all to familiar with the parade of right wing apologists for the more unpleasant fringes of their ideological hinterland, the “I’m not a racist, but…” brigade who are all too happy to use rhetorical blunt instruments to beat the progressive, liberal, multicultural society they loathe so much.

The tragic events in Norway are particularly maddening to some section of your much vaunted moderate conservative tradition because they have been robbed of the change to rail against islamic fundamentalism by the fact it WAS a right wing nutter who carried out the attack, but (even more shameful) they know quite well that his sickening beliefs lie on the same continuum of those who lurk on the fringes of their own movement.

“Lie on the same continuum” as your own beliefs.

Well that of course in the implicit charge of Sunny`s piece an inference you clearly feel is valid .
That is exactly why he and others should make it clear that they do not claim ordinary Conservative and Labour voters ( bigots no doubt in your opinion) are somehow implicated in this collective accusation.

Racism in the eugenic sense is a scattered oddity which no-one has seriously believed for many decades. Ethnic solidarity and / or romantic nationalism more broadly conceived has usually been attached to collectivist politics in some form ( Blue Labour is only the latest). Fascism especially under Mussolini the IRA the PLO and so on.
All these revolutionary groups and opposed by Conservatism which also opposes utopian Internationalism and the abolition of loyalty more usually supported on this site .

PS
I am not sure by the way I have caricatured Sunny`s views, something of a feat to be honest. He did not call on Muslim groups to condemn the terrorists in their midst. He supports unlimited mass immigration and state sponsored multi culturalism further loses of sovereignty to Europe and the whole bag of trendy lefty bon bons . Hardly unusual or especially dreadful but he is certainly a Guardianista fresh out of the box

Is’nt it simply the case that, be they Muslim, Chriistian, Marxist, whatever, the people who commit these atrocities are all exactly the same? The rebls fighting in Libya, the civilians trying to oust the Syrian government, these are freedom fighters. The lunatics who try to impose their political/religious ideology upon others by force are not fighting for freedom, they are bypassing the political process, because they believe that establishment political systems are entirely corrupt. While that may be true, upto a point, it is imperative that people from all sides work together to keep these dangerous groups and individuals under close watch. The way to do that is to get rid of the laws that prevent them from spouting their twisted ideology in public.

I have long believed that we need less censorship of extremist groups, not more. If you keep pushing them to the outer fringes, you simply stoke the fires of hatred that burn within their minds. Take off the shackles of censorship, let them say whatever they wish to say, let the public, globally, see the opinions expressed by extremists from all sides. I put greater faith in the people to decide for themselves, rather than relying on official bodies to determine what should and should not be seen and heard.

Dumnezeule,cata cretinatate poate exista in lumea asta…Cred ca prostia superpolitistilor norvegieni nu are limite,altfel nu se explica declaratiile lor stupide, cum ca sceleratul dement din Oslo ar fi “fundamentalist crestin”!De cand ne invata Isus sa ucidem in numele lui?Tampitii,confunda personajele![“profetul satanei” a inceput “razboiul sfant”pentru pedepsirea “necredinciosilor”,Cristos ne invata sa iubim dusmanii!] Si daca-i extremist de dreapta,de ce n-a ucis musulmanii,care i-au invadat tara?Profesionalismul politistilor sa vazut si prin faptul ca un nebun inarmat a putut face atatea distrugeri si crime…

@33 Paul Newman

“That is exactly why he and others should make it clear that they do not claim ordinary Conservative and Labour voters ( bigots no doubt in your opinion) are somehow implicated in this collective accusation.”

They’re only implicated in so far as they hold bigoted opinions. Mainstream democrats ought to have nothing to hide; those with a sneaking admiration for the EDL, wrapping themselves in the flag, and giving comfort to the far right have only themselves to blame. It can hardly come as a shock to anyone on the right that spouting intolerance about immigration, multiculturalism, godless liberals, pro-choice groups, homosexuals, or anyone vaguely coffee coloured helps establish the nourishing broth that psychos like McVeigh, Breivik etc thrive in.

@34 blackwillow

“I have long believed that we need less censorship of extremist groups, not more. If you keep pushing them to the outer fringes, you simply stoke the fires of hatred that burn within their minds. ”

Total dilation doesn’t necessarily work either; just look at the situation in the USA… doesn’t seem to have helped there much does it?

@26 Well I have to ask because I actually went to Paul Perrin’s linked blogpost to discover that his stance is largely that David Cameron best watch himself, lest lone nutters kill him for not enacting their fruit-loop racist views.

@cylux – your analysis that only racists kill people is only funny if you have absolutely no responsibility for anyones safety. I really hope you dont.

More disgusting politicisation of 93 dead. You should be ashamed.

Kevin – do you deny that any death can be related to politics, or is it just these ones?

If none then fair enough – everyone has an opinion.

If just these ones, then what is it about them that reassures you that there is no political angle?

@39 Given that that isn’t what I said and that you clearly have form for mendacity (or deliberate obtuseness – I can’t tell which), I’ll just settle for calling you a tosspot and backing away from your attempts to act as this man’s apologist.
(I also like how you deleted Curious’s post on your own blog that pointed out how full of shit you are, about how you don’t know what disenfranchisement actually means, and now why are we having this conversation again? Oh yes because Sunny deleted your first comment, golfclaps all round!)

It is will be interesting to see the weasel arguments of the Clash of Civilisations’ Right’s that this horrific mass murder has no connection to their many years of meticulously stoking hatred, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Interesting, repulsive, and nauseating.

cough… ukip

@clylux because you think only racist kill, and I suggest there can be other motives you now call me an ‘apologist’ – enjoy your self-inflicted blinkered view of the world – but it is no use to anyone else.

He may have praised EDL for certain aspects but he also writes (pg. 1436):

“The EDL, although having noble intentions are in fact dangerously naïve. EDL and KT principles can never be reconciled as we are miles apart ideologically AND organizationally. The EDL even rejects taking a stand against multiculturalism which proves that they are even more naïve than Sarkozy, Merkel and Cameron who have all admitted that multiculturalism has been a failure and a disaster for Europe.

And this is why, we, the KT view the EDL as naïve fools, wasting all their energy monkeyscreaming to deaf ears while they should instead have focused on means and methods that are meaningful in regards to achieving true political change, in regards to tearing down the multiculturalist regime known as Britain.”

He manages to make the EDL look mainstream.

You get the feeling that the EDL will be the fall guys for this carnage.
I don’t agree with their views but are they any different from the mainstream. Are they any different from say Anthony Browne’s Policy exchange ideas and comments.

‘Fall guys’? – I think you misunderstand how the bulk of this works

People who hate the right, trawl through news and blame anything bad on the right.
People who hate the left, trawl through news and blame anything bad on the left.
People who hate the USA, trawl through news and blame anything bad on the USA.
People who hate muslims, trawl through news and blame anything bad on muslims.
People who hate christians, trawl through news and blame anything bad on christians.
People who hate religion, trawl through news and blame anything bad on religion.
etc.

Just a very few of us trawl through the news and try to work out what is really to blame.

@45 Paul Perrin – I assume you can point to where I said that “only racists kill people”, yes? Or are you talking out your arse again? Because I can point to your apologist diatribe at your blog post on the subject

Its still early days, but this appears to have really been an attack on unrepresentative politics.
A voter decided that the political system was so broken that a violent attack on a political party was more likely to deliver a ‘good outcome’ than anything they could do at the ballot box.
Politicians are always terrified of terrorist attacks on them by those they claim to represent – but I guess this is the natural result of politicians savagely under or misrepresenting some people.

Which can be generously interpreted as “If they’d done what he’d said they’d still be alive”, victim blaming at its finest.

Also since more has become known your first line of “an attack on unrepresentative politics” doesn’t really hold water now does it? He was a far-right nut-job killing “cultural Marxists” who were of course the natural allies of “Islamo-Marxists” (not at all similar to Jewish-Bolsheviks no doubt) and trying to bring back the knights templar and expunge Islam from Europe by 2083. Are you perhaps suggesting that the Norwegian government should listen to such people, take on board their ideas and implement them at the expense of the democratic majority? Because it sounds like you come damn fucking close.

@cylux – thought you were ‘backing away’ – whats up? can’t keep away from me? you aren’t the stalker type are you?

@49 – Close? It’s a direct call. It’s entirely typical, too.

@50 Naa, I just suffer from SIWOTI syndrome.

Domnilor si tovarasi,apropo de declaratiile criminalului din Oslo,in romana exista un proverb care spune ca:”gura nebunului,adevar graieste”!Cand zice ca lupta contra islamizarii Europei are dreptate,caci dupa umila mea parere,intr-un viitor nu prea indepartat,in ritmul in care se inmultesc arabii,si musulmanii,in general[populatia Europei e una imbatranita]si cum majoritatea dinre ei,in loc sa ramana in… “raiul civilizatiei musulmane”vor sa invadeze iarasi Europa crestina,vor realiza in sfarsit visul stramosilor lor[arabii si turcii otomani],cuceriind-o cu propriile ei arme:DEMOCRATIA![a se vedea”francezii”din nationala Frantei,etc]Multiculturalismul e tampenie inventata de catre americani,care uita ca de fapt insusi SUA sa creat ca tara monoculturala,la fel ca toate celelalte foste colonii britanice.[Canada,Australia,etc]

Another terrorist – David Myatt – has already infiltrated the EDL and is manipulating these idiots from the inside. I would avoid the EDL at all costs.

ENGLISH DEFENCE LEAGUE GROOMED BY PAEDOPHILES

The English Defence League has been infiltrated by a group of paedophiles who are manipulating nazis in the Peterborough, Sawtry and Huntingdon areas of Cambridgeshire U.K. Various forms of harassment are being used against a whistleblower, to prevent him from exposing a police informer – David Myatt – and his involvement with convicted child molesters and Satanism.

David Myatt and his perverts have been thrown out of various extreme Right wing organisations over the years, but they always find their way back in and discover a new lot of mugs to exploit.

This is what members of Combat 18 had to say when they finally found out about the traitors in their midst.

“Vile Perverted Scum Who Are Out to Tarnish the Name of National Socialism.”

“All Satanism and Satanists are (sic) dirty scum who use this bull***t as a front for child molestation.”

(Source Redwatch No. 8).

The problem with National Socialist ‘politics’ is that it acts like a giant dog turd to attract every pervert and criminal within a huge radius. So even if genuine people do agree with what EDL are trying to achieve (and I don’t), members of National Socialist groups will be forced to mix with a huge quantity of liars, police informers and Satanist perverts in the process.

https://truthisgolden.wordpress.com/

The definative article on David Myatt’s three decade campaign of lies and duplicity is here:

http://www.indymedia.org/en/2010/03/935879.shtml

For discussions on Myatt’s links with Mi5 and Satanism see:

http://www.declarepeace.org.uk/captain/murder_inc/site/nazi.html

http://rigorousintuition.yuku.com/topic/82…avid-Myatt-Searchlight-article.html