So it was known that the relationship was in trouble in 2005.

Or rather, it was so well known that it was “too profound to be ignored”

But let’s cut to the obvious flaw in the Staines attack: the evidence of Mills having her phone hacked points to it happening in 2005.

Piers Morgan was sacked from his post as editor of the Daily Mirror in 2004.

The evidence of Mills’s phone being hacked by the News of the World points to it happening in 2005. The fact that Piers Morgan was (by his own admission) listening to recordings of her voicemails while editor of the Mirror points to it happening before 2005 as well.

The whole of your rebuttal amounts to an argument that because NoTW were hacking phones in 2005 it means that the Mirror couldn’t have been doing it the year before. That’s as big a non-sequitor as you could wish to see.

But go ahead – how did Morgan get that voicemail? While you think about it, consider that in 2002 the showbiz editor of the Mirror publicly thanked Vodafone “for their loose security” for his scoops of that year.

The attempt to nail the odious Morgan is just a ploy to take the pressure off the odious Murdoch, Brooks and Coulson. It’s a red herring. You don’t have to make a fool of yourself sticking up for one bastard to keep the hounds on the trail of the other three.

One thing your article does do is point up how deeply distasteful tabloid culture is. Whether or not the general public thinks “celebrities” are “fair game”, the idea of a married couple’s unhappy private messages to each other being listened to and discussed by the dirty-minded hacks of the NOTW, the Mirror and God knows who else is just disgusting.

This is the level that Murdoch has reduced our culture to.

Trying to pin anything on Piers using his so-called “contemporaneous accounts” is never going to work. They are a load of BS.

From Private Eye
“The Insider looks like a contemporaneous diary, and in his introduction Moron [sic] cites Alan Clark’s diaries as his inspiration. In fact the book has a closer kinship to the Hitler Diaries – a forgery compiled years after the event for the sole purpose of making a fast buck. Moron dashed the book off in such haste, however, that he has left behind a trail of clues…

Saturday 12 March 1994: Piers is worried that a [News of the World] kiss’n'tell story might be a con. “Step forward Tom Crone, our legal manager, who is now married to Pierce Brosnan’s ex-girlfriend. Anyone who can nick James Bond’s bird has got to be a cool customer.” And gifted with remarkable prescience: the current James Bond at the time is actually Timothy Dalton. Pierce Brosnan is not chosen to succeed him until later in the year, and makes his first 007 film in 1995.

Thursday 25 January 1996: “Went to interview Tony Blair, after his toughest week as leader. Harriet Harman, secretary of state for social security, had revealed that she’s sending her son to a selective grammar school.” Quite how Harman has achieved the job of secretary of state while remaining on the opposition front bench is not explained.

Wednesday 26 March 1997: “Tea with Tony Blair at No 10 … He was yawning a lot and drinking endless cups of tea. I tried to wake him up a bit.” Blair may have been yawning, but is it possible that Piers himself was fast asleep and dreamed the whole thing? If not, he has missed a sensational story for his front page: Tony Blair has moved into 10 Downing Street already, even though John Major is still Prime Minister and there is more than a month to go before the general election!

Thursday 14 May 1998: Downing Street has given the Sun a ghost-written article under Bill Clinton’s name which the Mirror had been promised exclusively. Piers is furious with Alastair Campbell and Tony Blair. “They’ve been in power less than a month and already stiffed us to help the Sun.” Less than a month since May 1997, eh? How time flies!

Sunday 24 January 1999: “High excitement today when Kofi Annan, UN secretary general, met my man in New York, Andy Lines, at a reception. ‘Aaahhh… the Daily Mirror, yes. Your editor is Piers Morgan, isn’t he?’” A charming story, but pure fantasy. On 24 January 1999 Kofi Annan was in the middle of a week-long trip to Switzerland.

Tuesday 3 August 1999: “Went to Chequers for the first time today for tea with Blair. An extraordinary place, stuck out in the middle of the countryside… ‘Do you fancy a look round the old cabinet war rooms?’ he asked. And we strolled up to where Churchill made all those ‘fight them on the beaches’ speeches.” Once again, some form of Tardis-transportation is clearly involved, since the cabinet war rooms are actually in London SW1 – as is the House of Commons, which is where Churchill made his “fight them on the beaches” speech on 4 June 1940.”

From the Indie
“The entry for 29 November 2001 has Piers at a Downing Street lunch, seated between Cherie Blair and Fiona Millar, Alastair Campbell’s partner. He makes both women “actually laugh” by quipping: “Ah, the real axis of evil.” The hole in this story is that the phrase “axis of evil” originates from George Bush’s State of the Union address, delivered on 29 January 2002 – two months after Piers supposedly cracked his witticism.”

The worst thing about Cole and Staines, and Louise Mensch (who interestingly was refusing to take any more of Guido’s revelations at face value yesterday – check the Twitter exchange) is that they make you side with this wanker. It’s horrible.

Wow, Paul Staines versus Piers Morgan. That really is a face off for the neutral to savour. I just hope there’s some way for them both to lose.

@1

I am flattered to be the object of your ridicule. If only you had bothered to do your own research first.

Morgan did not admit to listening to recordings of her voicemails when editor of the Mirror. That suggestion was made by Staines.

Mills is, like Ulrika Jonsson, suing the Screws. They must have it wrong, then? Why d’you think that Staines and Cole aren’t getting on to their lawyers to put them straight?

And Morgan didn’t “get” the voicemail. He heard it.

And you accuse me of “non sequiturs”.

The Mirror could have been up to all sorts. But the available evidence points to the Screws being responsible for this one, and that it happened after Morgan got the sack.

Morgan did not admit to listening to recordings of her voicemails when editor of the Mirror. That suggestion was made by Staines.

Here’s what Morgan says himself:

Stories soon emerged that the marriage was in trouble – at one stage I was played a tape of a message Paul had left for Heather on her mobile phone.

It is, of course, possible that Piers Morgan was listening to peoples’ voicemails in a private capacity, but Occam’s Razor and all that. It’s been strongly implied, on the record, that voicemail hacking went on at the Mirror while Morgan was editor (see Mohan’s comments in 2002). it’s hardly a leap to suggest that when the erstwhile editor of the Mirror talks about having listened to peoples’ voicemails, it was done while he was in a position to have had access to them.

Mills is, like Ulrika Jonsson, suing the Screws. They must have it wrong, then? Why d’you think that Staines and Cole aren’t getting on to their lawyers to put them straight?

You appear still to be clinging to your own wonderfully bizarre non-sequitor – that because the NOTW hacked into voicemails, no other newspaper could. I’m sure that the NOTW did hack Heather Mills’s phone. That has literally no relevance whatsoever to the question of whether or not the Mirror did too.

And Morgan didn’t “get” the voicemail. He heard it.

Pfft. That’s really very funny. Do you think that Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson are supposed to have been personally hacking into peoples’ phones?

“Wow, Paul Staines versus Piers Morgan. That really is a face off for the neutral to savour. I just hope there’s some way for them both to lose.”

It’s the Sophie’s Choice of our generation. There’s no getting away from it. We have to pick a side here and I have to go with Moron. There’s really no alternative.

3 – I love the argument that Piers Morgan is too much of a liar for us to be able to put any value on anything that he has ever said. It’s certainly more convincing than any of the other defences put forward.

Tim,

He’s a notorious bullshitter and has form for inserting himself into stories that have nothing to do with him. His denial of wrongdoing seemed carefully crafted and implies to me that he is probably guilty of every type of skulduggery not specifically denied, but its notable that with the exception of the Ulrika spoiler, no-one seems to have identified a Mirror story during his tenure which appears to be derived from hacking, and in that there seems to be a clear contrast with its main competitor. What I find truly bizarre is the apparent belief by some on the right that if they nail Morgan on this then somehow they can call it a wash and it all goes away.

Wow, Piers Morgan, a “libertarian” scumbag blogger, and a greasy-pole-climbing Tory MP.

Can’t they all just be whisked off to a far-away island and left to fight it out amongst themselves?

Facts to remember: Morgan was the “showbiz” editor of the Sun and the editor of News of the World, before he was editor of the Mirror. The suggestion that he (or his underlings at his request) didn’t engage in the dark arts is quite frankly hilarious. There is a smoking gun out there and it’ll be found sooner or later. This story, however, probably isn’t it – for all the reasons in the OP. The Guardian should do some digging around the Mirror – who knows what it’ll find? Let’s get rid of all the scum while we’re bashing Murdoch around.

Facts to remember: Morgan was the “showbiz” editor of the Sun and the editor of News of the World, before he was editor of the Mirror.

Bingo.

Tim J – you are Lionel Hutz and I claim my 5 pounds.

“Hearsay are circumstantial evidence are types of evidence, aren’t they?”

Mike S makes a good point- the fact that Piers Morgan has a loose approach to the truth in his memoirs paradoxically makes it impossible to conclude that he is guilty of phone hacking on the basis of those memoirs.

He’s lying about something but whether he was lying then or lying now is hard to say.

@6

Occam’s razor like heck. And it being “implied on the record”? What’s one of those? Cor, open and shut case! Take him down!!

Nobody is saying the Mirror couldn’t have been indulging in the Dark Arts. But the only evidence available points to the Screws. Your only defence is to fall back on what was “implied on the record”.

It isn’t “hardly a leap”. It *is* a leap. You build up a series of assumptions and then shout “ooh look over there – non sequitur”. As you wish – nothing like a bit of tribalism and a desire to get the rotten lefties.

Jimmy
“Wow, Paul Staines versus Piers Morgan. That really is a face off for the neutral to savour. I just hope there’s some way for them both to lose.”

It’s the Sophie’s Choice of our generation. ”

I fear it might be the Alien versus Predator “Whoever wins… we lose”

so true Mike. Though no matter how confused Piers sounds, if he was actually guilty of something, I wouldnt be that sad. Infact I thought this might be one of the consequences of the whole Murdoch hacking thing. I was kind of looking forward to him being done over…this doesnt take my mind of the whole murdoch thing, as this man is just as connected to Murdoch, what with being the editor of the news of the world and all that,

we lose? So its either having your face hugged or having it blown off. I agree…we do lose!

14 – so… Morgans showbiz editor thanks Vodafone’s ‘loose security’ for his scoops. Morgan has recordings of Heather Mills’ voicemail. He gets hold of Liz Hurleys mobile number immediately it’s changed. He admits to employing dodgy PIs. The Mirror is found in Op Motorman to be the largest user of dodgily aquired info. He says that phone hacking was ‘rife’ in the media as a whole. He was editor of the News of the World, and showbiz editor of the Sun.

As 3 shows, you can’t take anything he says on trust. And we should therefore definitely believe him when he says that, despite all the signs to the contrary he never employed people who hacked voicemails.

Well, I suspect that this will all come out soon enough – it’s in the scope of Leveson’s enquiry. And then we can decide if I’m being cynical in not believing a liar, or you’re being naive.

Once a Murdoch man, always a Murdoch man. It is like a dark cult.

The bigger question for Morgan is was he working for Murdoch while he was fucking up the Mirror?

@Tim J #18:

The Mirror is found in Op Motorman to be the largest user of dodgily aquired info.

No. Just no. Read the ICO report (you might find it interesting) and tell us what Operation Motorman was actually looking at, and then come back and explain why you’re wrong.

21 – one of the largest users. 861 requests for private information from dodgy PIs. Not as many as the Mail. Does that make much of a difference?

@Tim J #22:

What you disregard (and my point) is that Motorman was not a national survey; it was an analysis of the records of a single dodgy freelance PI. It is true that Trinity Mirror papers were the largest users of that PI for dodgily acquired information; but unless you are going to claim that he was the only freelance dodgy PI, you can draw no conclusions about relative usage from those figures.

It is worth bearing in mind that NI papers had their own in-house full-time dodgy PI; yet still appeared in the Motorman analysis…

It is true that Trinity Mirror papers were the largest users of that PI for dodgily acquired information; but unless you are going to claim that he was the only freelance dodgy PI, you can draw no conclusions about relative usage from those figures.

Well, you can draw one conclusion – that Trinity Mirror employed PIs to get dodgily acquired information. Which was the conclusion I was seeking to make.

Again: it’s possible, entirely possible, that all this (as Neil says) circumstantial information is misleading. And that even though, as Morgan says, phone-hacking was rife throughout the press at the time he was an editor, he was immune. Given the circumstances, however, and noting that he got his big break as a showbiz editor (where phone hacking was more prevalent than anywhere else thanks to the worthlessness of the news it peddled) and given his excellent record of habitual untruth, I’d suggest that taking his blanket denials at face value is a touch naive.

But the real flaw with this piece’s coverage of the story is that it takes as a given that because NI were hacking into voicemails, nobody else could have done. I’d have thought that the fact that one newspaper group were doing actually makes it more likely that others were too.

@Tim J #’24:

Well, you can draw one conclusion – that Trinity Mirror employed PIs to get dodgily acquired information. Which was the conclusion I was seeking to make.

It’s not quite what you said, which was:

The Mirror is found in Op Motorman to be the largest user of dodgily aquired info.

It was “the largest” that I was quarrelling with, and which is insupportable on the basis of Motorman.

The ICO reports, drawing on both Motorman and its own investigations, showed that major insurance companies, mortgage lenders, even local authorities and newspapers had all been provided with potentially illegally obtained information. You can however draw no conclusions from the figures from Motorman in the second report as to either precisely which illegalities he committed for each, or even whether they were aware of the illegality (since at least some of the information was obtainable both lawfully and unlawfully). Nor do we know which of the activites were actually illegal, since there is a public interest defence.

What we can say is that the figures in the second report pale into insignificance alongside Mulcaire’s activitiesfor the NotW; it is being reported that there is evidence of at least 4,000 phone-hacks alone.

As for the Mail story; did Morgan, when editor of the Mirror, run a story based on the allegedly hacked voicemail message?

Perhaps it’s worth pointing out that a very similar story ran in Private Eye in February – but this was about before Mills and McCartney got married, ie 2002. The song was different, but it still had Morgan singing it to the Mirror newsroom. Presumably the year will mean that Tim Fenton will not associate it with whatever the NotW was doing in 2005 or 2006:

[blockquote]Moron, meanwhile, is enjoying the limelight as a celeb interviewer on cable TV. Former Mirror hacks have this week been reminiscing about the occasion when Moron serenaded their newsroom with the Beatles song “And I Love Her” during a period of pre-wedding froideur between Paul McCartney and Heather Mills, and then informed them that “It’s the message he sang to Heather to make it up – you should hear the tape.” [/blockquote]

http://www.sunray22b.net/1281.htm