Looks like this is about a young man shot, the pictures used by the TV shows him with his fingers up in the shape of a gun, so of course he looks like a moron but never trust the BBC.

I suspect over the next few years I suspect the climate we live in will allow for more riots and more problems.

Local am states riots should not be like this just because of cuts, yes but your still earning £85,000 a year mate.

Good video. Also, good evidence of my contention that the British have basically forgotten how to do insurrection altogether during the last 50 years or so. This is more of a club brawl than a riot.

I bet none of the rioters were sons of Yorkshire coal miners.

“I suspect over the next few years I suspect the climate we live in will allow for more riots and more problems.”

What is the climate that says that looting and burning is morally acceptable?

@Robert “Looks like this is about a young man shot” this is, however the facts are a little more complicated. this ‘young man’ who went by a street name of Starrish Markin’ was apparently under surveillance as part of Operation Trident which was covering gun crime. The police allegedly had information that Duggan was out to execute a man he believed to be responsible for the stabbing and murder of his best friend in April. It appears that the ‘young man’ shot a police officer as the police tried to go through with a planned arrest. the police officer was saved as the bullet lodged in his radio. It appears that it was at this point that the man was shot although there are conflicting reports, no more than gossip, that it is unclear who shot first.

There is certainly more to it than a ‘young man’ being shot no matter how much the liberal media try and paint him as a mild-mannered father of four.

And sorry i meant to add… I can’t view the video. It says ‘this video is private’

I hear Mark Duggan vaulted a turnstile and was wearing a big bulky jacket with wires poking out the bottom!

What is the climate that says that looting and burning is morally acceptable?

None. But make a significant section of the populace’s life squalid and miserable, to the point were they are by definition actually having to fight to survive, then force further injustice upon them, and well, you should really expect violence to follow. It’s not exactly rocket science to realise that the most deprived and cruel areas of the world also happen to have the most casual violence within them, humans are still animals at heart after all, despite all our “civilised” pretensions.

Does that make it right? No.
Does that mean it shouldn’t be condemned? No.
Does it make it understandable and easy to avoid if those in power wish to do so? Yes.

Course it’ll be those poor bastards within these harsh areas that suffer the most rather than those in power should they decide to not avoid it.

All this is no surprise because the young have no respect anymore do they. Look at what our children are subjected to :

Years of Glorifying and exposing us to War’s in Iraq and Afghanistan and now Libya. Exposure on television to years of death and destruction through these deceifully claimed War’s of necessity.

Then we see the Worlds greedy Banks and Financial Institutions bring the world to its knee’s. When we the Tax Payer bails them out they still get enormous bonuses as a reward even though they had failed, talk about rubbing salt into a wound.

The exposure of MP”s screwing the system through expenses claims even though many of them were wealthy and did not need to do so but greed was the motive.

Endless electoral campaign deceit, lies, spin and psychological mind games especially from David Cameron that claimed live on the finanal television debate that he would protect the Sick, Disabled, Vulnerable and poorest in society because a country is judged upon how it cares for its most vulnerable in society. Also that they had no intention of raising VAT if elected but done so within a week of going into Downing Street. Just a Pack of Outright BareFaced Lies to the British people.

These Politicians have treated the British people like morons and continue to lie and change course to hide their lies but everyone can see what they are doing and are now becoming really sick and tired.

Then we have the News of the World saga (Phone Hacking) with David Cameron’s close friends and associates involved with Cameron protecting Andy Culson. Then this saga exposed Police Corruption and a string of resignations.

Politicians endlessly lie, deceive, fiddle and some have recently been sent to prison. The Police are corrupt and in peoples pockets. We are told lies to justify wars in far away lands then get involved in other peoples civil wars. Anyone can Hack into our personal information.

It is no wonder people are losing their moral compass and have become completely disallusioned. All those that should be setting an example to the rest of us have proved that authority is deceitful and corrupt to the bone and they have subjected the nation to the reality that no person can be trusted and that includes those in Authority. We are also the victims of their actions and where is our justice. We have none and people are now angry.

I wonder how Lee Jasper will play this. He has recently gone back to his roots (so to speak) and been campaigning and organising marches about the police killing of black men. ”No justice – No Peace” and all that.
http://leejasper.blogspot.com/

http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/kingsley-burrell-birmingham-march-justice

There might not have been any big riots in Tottenham for a long while, but it’s a pretty dangerous place by the look of it. This has to go down as a racist attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-NO7E7eFl0

I hear people on the radio saying that there is great community spirit there though.
I think they mean that there are communities there that have a community spirit within them.

Cylux, are you serious?

“…But make a significant section of the populace’s life squalid and miserable, to the point were they are by definition actually having to fight to survive, then force further injustice upon them, and well, you should really expect violence to follow. It’s not exactly rocket science to realise that the most deprived and cruel areas of the world also happen to have the most casual violence within them, humans are still animals at heart after all, despite all our “civilised” pretensions…”

Really? Tottenham is on the edge of one of the richest and busiest places on the planet. The vast majority of people with a mind to do well can easily to so from a place like Tottenham. Stop making patronising excuses for disfunctional lifestyles and sub-cultures.

As far as we can tell at the moment, a member of the public was carrying an illegal gun and shot a policeman before getting shot himself by the police. There is not a country in the World where you can shoot a policeman and not expect them to return fire, other than here of course (usually).

Most people having to face this riotous mob would have either shat themselves or lost their temper and started cracking heads. Our police, in this instance at least, did neither. I take my hat off to them!

This is like ripping the lid off of Hell. No civilized society can endure if it tolerates such behavior. Troops stationed abroad should be brought home and positioned in urban areas. The next time this starts, Martial Law should be imposed. A curfew should be enforced. Looters and arsonists should be shot. There is absolutely no reason this behavior should be tolerated. There is no justification for this behavior – none.

Mike at No: 12

Fully agree there is no excuse for rioting or any other violence and it should not be tolerated.

We need to get to the root of the problem and understand why to avoid it happening again but to shoot them as you are suggesting would only breed violence and create more hate.

The sad reality is that those in society that should be setting an example (Politicians & Police) are shown to be Deceitful, Dishonest, Liars, Hypocrits, thieves and the list goes on. We are exposed to violence on television, movies and this country is fighting war upon war and one off which, we lied by claiming that they ( Iraq ) had Weapons of Mass Destruction with no evidence and then we went on to witness death and destruction on a vast scale on the basis of lies.

Maybe if you want it your way we should start by getting the legal right to punish those in Authority that do wrong and actually see them punished, not get away through their clever little legal loopholes. If that happened people may not be so angry because I do not believe this riot was solely down to one man being shot. The problem is far bigger than that. You are not a Racist by any chance are you ? Why would you want to see people shot for venting anger ? Innocent people may get shoot accidently but I doubt that would worry you would it ?

@Darren Ball

Tottenham is on the edge of one of the richest and busiest places on the planet.

I think you’ll find that is a compounding factor, not a mitigating one.

The vast majority of people with a mind to do well can easily to so from a place like Tottenham. Stop making patronising excuses for dysfunctional lifestyles and sub-cultures.

This would be true if our society was in any way shape or form close to a meritocracy, but it isn’t. Even those “with a mind to do so” will find themselves facing an uphill struggle because of the various established connections and relationships that they lack, but that others from a middle-class, private educated background would possess. Mix in the fact that we ain’t even slightly close to 100% employment and every decent-paying job opportunity will be highly contested, it’s far more likely that friends and family of current employee’s will be given first shake at any jobs than an outsider. I can’t really summon too much outrage if they find violence and crime to be a more exciting and fiscally rewarding endeavour than working themselves to exhaustion in drudgery for the NMW.
But, as I said above, this doesn’t make it right, only understandable, and it’ll be their neighbours, who are in the same boat they are, who ultimately suffer the most from their behaviour.
The question is, what the fuck are we going to do about it? I would hope it’s not what Mike is suggesting @12 at the very least.

@Cylux,

“Even those “with a mind to do so” will find themselves facing an uphill struggle because of the various established connections and relationships that they lack, but that others from a middle-class, private educated background would possess.”

There are problems with cronyism in some top professions, I agree. They will run up against barriers, as would I, if they want to present the BBC news, run the country, or head a FTSE 100 company. But for the vast majority of us, cronyism this is not an impediment to career or job success. The privileged elite haven’t stopped them being plumbers, electricians, teachers, nurses, fire fighters, and dare I say it: police officers.

What are we doing about it? I’m not the author of their lives. The questions is: what are they doing about it?

The police should be given more guns, perhaps a few hand grenades too to sort that lot of degenerate fuckwits out. How many of the rioters actuly knew what it was about? They just rolled out of bed at midday collected their JSA payment and went to cause trouble. Bring back national service!

@16 I strongly doubt anyone is collecting a JSA payment at the weekend.

“Bring back national service!”

I managed to avoid doing National Service by getting to uni just before it was abolished. At uni, I met up with guys who had done their National Service and they regarded it as a pointless waste of time – painting coal white around the perimeters of coal heaps so it would be easily noticed if any got nicked, cutting the grass with scissors – good for discipline, sweeping the sand into straight lines for a general inspection at a base in Egypt etc.

The interesting take was that as a school boy in London before I went to uni, the urban legend was that National Service was to blame for delinquent yoofs who had left school at 15 and were then left hanging around doing temporary jobs while waiting to be called up at 17½.

Besides, do we really want young thugs to be taught how to shoot and kill?

@11 – And guess what? There’s massive inequality, too.

The housing benefit cuts, alone, mean that many of the people out there rioting know they’ll be gone from Tottenham in the near future. To poorer places, with far fewer jobs.

Take away people’s prospects like that, divorce them utterly from the community because they KNOW they have no long term future in it, and what do you think happens?

There’s NO evidence that the man shot at police. The bullet in the police radio was a police bullet. He may have been *transporting* it (apparently in a sock), but since when was that a capital crime?

Moreover, I completely disagree with your contention that there was not head cracking. There’s pretty good eyewitness evidence as to the police kicking it off by beating a teenage girl, involved in the march, and many people injured are not going to exactly advertise the fact, unless they’re hurt enough to need (in their opinion, which isn’t always accurate) hospital treatment.

If anything, it’s suspiciously low how many injuries have been reported – to the degree I suspect that many of the injured are avoiding having them reported through distrust of the authorities.

@12,16 – Murder, slaughter kill – it’s all I hear from the right these days. And that language fuels the fires of resentment.

You’re just ensuring that the UK cannot claim any sort of moral high ground, by calling for what Syria does, and – like Syria – that there will be bloody, regular repetitions. But no, CRUSH THE POOR, right?

@Leon Wolfson,

I’m not quite sure that Tottenham is one of those boroughs where people are likely to hit the housing benefit cap: Mayfair it’s not. But running with the argument for a moment…

All of my friends who have decided to settle down and have children, some of whom have come from better off backgrounds and all would be categorised as “middle-class”, realised that they couldn’t afford to raise their family whilst living in London, and so moved to the suburbs and beyond. As a result they were cut-off from their “support networks” (aka families and friends) and had to commute to work. This happens to middle-class and middle-income young families all the time, and nobody complains at all about it because it’s an economic reality.

For some reason, council tenants are not expected to be able to cope with commuting and arranging childcare, even though once their public housing in monetised, their income is very often higher than that of a middle-income professional.

So in answer to your question “Take away people’s prospects like that, divorce them utterly from the community because they KNOW they have no long term future in it, and what do you think happens?” Am I expected to say: oh go on then, torch somebody’s house and throw brick bats at the police: what else can you do? No, I’m not. Your view is patronising.

As for all of your other points, they’re based on conspiracy theories. It was a policeman’s own bullet lodged in his own radio was it? That would take forensics about 10 minutes to spot. Let’s wait for the IPCC report, shall we?

Just before the 1997 election, Blair famously said: Education, education, education.

How important is that a factor in where we are now?

“Though white children in general do better than most minorities at school, poor ones come bottom of the league (see chart). Even black Caribbean boys, the subject of any number of initiatives, do better at GCSEs”
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14700670

Education won’t cut it as these kids, hoodies for the most part, just want drugs and the consumer lifestyle. They think nothing of theft, and would even murder someone “just for the fun of it”. Morals are non existent; besides they have noone to look up to – the parents are probably divorced and don’t care. It’s just clockwork orange on your doorstep. Kill or be killed.

Er, and that’s why I emigrated!

@22:

The instructive perspective is why Chinese and Indian kids from poor homes do so much better in the GCSE exams for 16 year-olds.