These riots are rooted in the fact that we have brought up a generation of children without values.

We have spent billions educating them but what have we taught them? All we have ultimately taught them is that they have rights.

A right to food and shelter.
A right to be educated and entertained.
A right to work and earn a minimum wage if they do.
A right to medical care and counselling.
A right to a defined level of prosperity relative to others.
A right to do as they wish and not to be discriminated against.

This is a wider point then relating to the current riots but the children have not been taught that they have any responsibilities to go with these rights and we have thus spoilt a generation of kids.

And it is about time some of those who did this realised what they have done and accepted that these riots were rooted in affluence, not deprivation. Livingstone, Abbott and the rest need to understand that the worst thing you can do with a spoilt child is to pander to it’s tantrums.

“When the mainstream media refer to the “local community” in Hackney or in Tottenham, they tend to forget that this category also includes those who were out on the streets causing trouble.”

People aren’t of the community if they are burning, attacking and looting their neighbours. It seems that their most important bond is with the state that has overindulged them to the point of dependence.

@1 Don’t know what school you went to mate but they didn’t teach that I my one in Hackney.

@2 No need to argue semantics and miss the point. Theres probably a different definition of community to everyone on the planet.

Pagar @ 1

What? I mean what the fuck are you on? Pople riot because they have rights? That is sheer fucking nonsense because people all over Europe have those rights and in many caes have a lot more, yet never riot.

In fact most inner city riots occur in areas of the World where peple have least rights, where people actually do not know where their next meal is comming from. You may have missed the so called ‘Arab Spring’ these people wee not rioting because they had free health care.

Do you see what you have done here? You have taken your dislike of society and projected them onto a violent uprising.

What a sickening post that is Pagar, you need to be ashamed of that.

[1] Either source a quote from Diane Abbott to justify your slur on her or retract. AFAIK she has said nothing in the past few days that any sensible person would wish to take issue with.

The underlying problem is a complete absence of discipline and lack of consequences for actions.

Today, the rights of the individual are seen to be more important than those of the society in which he/she lives, which is completely wrong.

Kids need clear boundaries when growing up, with defined consequences for exceeding those boundaries. The rights of society must be paramount and discipline is the key to ensuring this.

Bring back corporal punishment (it reinforces learning!), and consider reintroducing national service, too, to instil discipline. If kids fail exams, keep them back – there are no guarantees of any “free lunch” in life. It’s time to stop this silly experiment with political correctness, and to go back to basic decent norms of behaviour in society.

@4

I think all pagar was saying (verbosely) was that at least one generation has been spoilt rotten and now expects everything to be given to it – and that the last thing to do to a child who’s just thrown a tantrum is to give it a hug.

Not saying that’s my view, like. But that’s how I read the comment.

And I think the Arab Spring riots were for something completely different.

“In fact most inner city riots occur in areas of the World where peple have least rights, where people actually do not know where their next meal is comming from.”

No, that doesn’t seem to be the case. The link with poverty, at least, doesn’t seem to be supported by the evidence.

Mike @ 5

Either source a quote from Diane Abbott to justify your slur on her or retract

“Haringey Council has lost £41m from its budget and has cut youth services by 75 per cent. The abolition of the education maintenance allowance hit Haringey hard, and thousands of young people at college depended on it.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/diane-abbott-a-tinder-box-waiting-to-explode-2333574.html

Incidentally, I don’t know how the scrapping of EMA has hit Haringey hard.

It hasn’t happened yet!!!!!

TM @ 8

Come on, riots like the Canadian hockey are quite rare and short lived in Western Cultures. A bit of crowd madness perhaps allied withhot weather and it kicks of. These guys go back to work on Monday a little worse for wear.

The Greeks are going through some hard times and have rioted as of course the price of basic foodstuffs in Egypt triggered riots.

George @ 6: the only clichéd solutions you omitted was the reintroduction of capital punishment and deportation to the colonies.

These guys go back to work on Monday a little worse for wear.

I think that might be a touch optimistic for many of them.

This will not help ,i am not happy watching police hurt kids in our country

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgXpNqT2kJE

[9] Pagar, first thanks for linking to the entire article, in which Diane Abbott also says: “Nothing excuses violence.”

No ifs, no buts. Please explain why you chose not to quote that sentence.

Good OP. So we’ve had Darcus Howe saying this was a ”classic insurrection” and that twerp Jody McIntyre saying on twitter ”Be inspired by the scenes in #tottenham and rise up in your own neighbourhood. 100 people in every area = the way we can beat the feds.” Laughable nonsense of course. Why anyone took him seriously I don’t know.

Did anyone notice the race and class divide down at the ”Clapham clean up” yesterday?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=clapham+clean+up+looting&aq=f

Clapham Junction is a very divided place. With some very poor (black) people living in the housing estates, right next to the people who own the expensive houses off middle class Northcote Road with all it’s wine bars and resturants.
Ten years ago I worked in Pizza Hut in Clapham Junction, and we didn’t do deliveries to the Falcon Road estate just behind it. It was considered to be gang territory and too dangerous to send a delivery guy on a moped into.
It was too. He would get mugged for his pizza and the moped would be stolen for joyriding – then burned.

13,
I really am if they actually deserve it. How do you even know if they are “kids”?

@7 Many would argue the spoilt generation is the baby boomers after the war.

[9] Pagar, first thanks for linking to the entire article, in which Diane Abbott also says: “Nothing excuses violence.”

No ifs, no buts. Please explain why you chose not to quote that sentence.

Because everybody says that!!!!

I was not accusing her of condoning violence but of implying that the proposed withdrawal of EMA or a reduction in funding youth services was a contributory factor in instigating it.

By the way, have you seen the bargains on ebay today?

9] Pagar, first thanks for linking to the entire article, in which Diane Abbott also says: “Nothing excuses violence.”
No ifs, no buts. Please explain why you chose not to quote that sentence.

I `ll take that
Its because we,and I think I can speak for 99% of the country here, are sick of the slithering clammy indefensibly dishonest refusal to condemn criminality without wrapping it in excuses.
Its no good doing a kidz an ospitalz guff-o-gram intending to blame the government and then add ,…oh of course this does not justify..blah blah . If it does not justify then why say it ?We had the same thing from Hoodie hugging Hundal in which he actually made an equivalence between a banker (lets say any capitalist over rewarded in his view) and a criminal smashing windows. Then he said …of course nothing justifies etc. Well what was he doing then? He and you might as well spit in the face of everyone tidying up and paying the bills for this festival of scum .What you may think is a cunning bit of deniability is only insulting the intelligence of everyone who wants the thugs locked up and order restored
This has nothing to do with anything expect looting fashion, mobile phones and the gang culture that has grown up in London`s fatherless welfare wastelands and educational vacuums.

If you want to solve it start breaking up the human zoos. Short term …. just clamp down lock them up , give them harsh sentences and that will be that. The little fuckers deserve no more thought and they are not rioters, they are looters
LOOTERS ARE SCUM.

@13,
I really am if they actually deserve it. How do you even know if they are “kids”?

How do you know they actally deseved it?and if you can,t tell they are kids go and see an optician .If they had done something why not lift them AND PUT THEM IN PRISON , they were kids on bikes ffs kids,the police are hitting and kicking them on the deck.IF THATS HOW YOU WANT OUR POLICE TO ACT GOD LUCK TO YOU THE NEXT TIME THEY RIOT.
Andrew Edinburgh

On this point of education – regardless of what is taught in schools, does anyone seriously think anywhere near a decent proportion of this involved actually attended school for any length of time to hear these lessons…? This to me is a crux of the issue. I think this is a much more salient point than the type of education they receive.

Can anyone explain how one can manage to assess a person’s income bracket, education status, class etc just from watching them on videos? I can’t, but people brimming with opinions about these riots seem to be able to.

@19 – So, what, go into poor areas and burn then down? Is that your “breaking up the zoos?” Great, destroy housing, destroy communities, destroy…it’s allways the same, never building anything.

Very good piece!

I live over a shop and all the shopkeepers/takeaway people/etc are always checking I’m ok if I come home late, or if they don’t see me for a few days etc. Last night they were checking everyone was fine, groups of kind elderly Muslim gents sitting outside with sticks saying good evening to everyone and so on made what feels initially like a pretty rough area feel extremely safe and warm. To say nothing of the shop below me constantly give me pieces of fruit and stuff, and they offered me painkillers when I was ill the other week and struggling to find the right pennies (I actually had enough but they were concerned and just making sure.) All of this is a whole other, quieter, often unseen side of working class, multicultural London, which I am sure is much more prevalent than the sad business we’ve seen this week. I wish it could be more celebrated.

Also, the word “sanctimonious” in political writing is usually a sign of someone really, really annoying to be honest. I haven’t seen Richard Seymour’s comments and will have to check them out in full but I find “sanctimonious” often is a snide way of basically telling other people that their moral concerns are somehow self-righteous or nannyish, well, just invalid for whatever reason. It pisses me the hell off. Almost any expression of any view founded in ethics or any expression of moral judgement about anyone or anything will almost certainly be denounced as “sanctimonious” by some total dickhead… it is hard to call someone “sanctimonious” without being sanctimonious.

small point, but if you’re going to use quotation marks they should enclose a direct quotation, not a tendentious paraphrase thereof. clearly some people have yet to learn the lesson of Johann Hari’s recent travails.

@19 Good to see you only want condemnations from our politicians and not attempts at explanations.
No need for potential reasons as to why for Mr Newman, they’re just thugs and criminals acting like thugs and criminals. Indeed there clearly are bugger all socio-political motivations behind the riots and it’s just mere dumb luck that they simply don’t happen every year/month/week!
Glad we got that sorted!

‘In some parts of the city, small shops are boutique type places, and exist to serve middle class folk who are too authentic to go to a supermarket.’

Just repeating that ‘coz its a great line!

‘Today, the rights of the individual are seen to be more important than those of the society in which he/she lives, which is completely wrong.’

Stalin and Pol Pot got it right then?

As was the case 26 years ago, nothing excuses violence…But with these and other cuts in jobs and services, it is difficult to see how areas like Tottenham can become less flammable soon.

I deplore racism but…
I am no anti-semite but…
Violence is unjustified but…

Everything before the but is bullshit.

@29 Understanding the why is not the same as endorsement. Feel free to continue pretending to miss the point though.

Tim J: “Everything before the but is bullshit.”

No, it’s not. The sentence “I don’t like cake, but I do like flapjack” does not mean that it is “bullshit” that I don’t like cake. There is nothing inherently wrong with qualifying a sentence with the word “but”.

Presumably you’re saying that anyone who tries to figure out why these people might have rioted is automatically endorsing what they did, whether they condemn it or not. That’s just bloody boneheaded, frankly.

It’s a no-brainer that people will take a one-sided position when something major happens. The right will put the right wing point across, the left will put their point across, the bleeding hearts will try to explain why it happens, throwing up every cliche in their vocabulary, as will the supposed experts on society. Every man and his dog will have something to say, wether they try to make excuses for the people involved, or they want to sound really clever and knowledgable on a particular subject. The only way to offer a neutral opinion is to step back, look at the bigger picture and analyse all aspects of the situation. But that takes time, people do’nt want to wait, they want answers and solutions and they want them now. I hate to say it but, this will get worse before it gets better. We have a government that does’nt get the underlying causes of social unrest, a sub-culture that could’nt care less about the effect of their actions on the wider community and a general sense of apathy among the parents of the youths involved, looking for someone to blame for their failings as parents, rather than taking responsibility for the lives they created. It’s down to people like us, people who do actually give a shit about others to make sure we look after each other, protect our own communities. Not going out looking for the bastards, but making sure we’re ready if they start trouble in our streets. The biggest danger is if this turns into a race war, black versus white versus asian versus east european. If it degenerates to that point, we really will be jumping into the abyss.

Is the OP related to Jacob B-R who was tweeting this: http://t.co/O1Nos0R yesterday? Sample line “We offer unapologetic solidarity and support to those involved in the UK uprisings these past nights.” Twats like that do nothing but harm to any left-wing cause they claim to be involved with.

I do not want just condemnation Cylulx. I want tough sentences the police back in control of the streets and enough examples made so it never happens again.
People like you are always “Understanding “,by that you mean identifying supposed root causes outside the people who did it thereby legitimising it.

Its societies fault …. the remix !

@28

Stalin and Pol Pot got it right then?

‘Rights of the individual’ are only for tories and their anointed ingroups, obviously.

‘‘Rights of the individual’ are only for tories and their anointed ingroups, obviously.’

Mobs are collective, not individualist. They represent an abrogation of responsibility not an expression of individuality.

“Meanwhile, in a couple of weeks, those in a position of political authority will hand pick some “community leaders”. They, invariably, will be people who are willing to tell young people that the fighting against poverty is simply a matter of working hard at school and having the “right attitude”.”
– exactly, and that ‘attitude’ argument totally avoids the problem of the structural, systemic violence from which the riots are born (see my piece at Reading Politics on this subject: bit.ly/qycDh0
Ben

@34

I do not want just condemnation Cylulx. I want tough sentences the police back in control of the streets and enough examples made so it never happens again.
People like you are always “Understanding “,by that you mean identifying supposed root causes outside the people who did it thereby legitimising it.

Its societies fault …. the remix !

So you want greater state power and authoritarianism? Ace.

Mobs are collective, not individualist. They represent an abrogation of responsibility not an expression of individuality.

It’s called deindividuation, or in economic terms, externalization, it also happens to very aptly describe the voting process – people believe they don’t have to deal with the consequences of their choices and so, act differently than they otherwise would.

Gustave Le Bon wrote a very good book about it.

Either way we’re not actually talking about the mob, we’re talking about the inherent contradiction (read – hypocrisy) of toryism, read the original statement @6;

Today, the rights of the individual are seen to be more important than those of the society in which he/she lives, which is completely wrong. [...]

The rights of society must be paramount and discipline is the key to ensuring this.

Remember that 61% in England and Wales admit to being a criminal (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6235988.stm) so who is in this society who’s ‘rights must be paramount’? The other 39%?

Or are there infact ‘acceptable crimes’ (like, say, speeding or assaulting a child) which don’t excommunicate one from ‘society’?

Through the riots, their response hasn’t been to run to the big society, or the private sector, as with all pseudo free marketeers and libertarians, when the shit hits the fan, they all go running to the state.

All I know is that those who say “if only we had better parenting there’d be no riots” are the biggest idiots I’ve seen for a while.

If we truly want to mend ‘broken Britain’ (awful cliche, but strangely apt at the moment, though not for the reasons envisaged by Dave Cameron), then all sides of the political debate must be prepared to accept some very harsh truths and be prepared to consider some very radical new social and economic policies.
I consider four areas of change in the following article.
http://www.allthatsleft.co.uk/2011/08/london-riots-the-latest-chapter-in-the-breaking-of-britain/

So you want greater state power and authoritarianism? Ace

I don`t think that asking the state to perform its most minimal function effectively constitutes a chorus of the red flag Cyclux. How are you getting on with”understanding” why someone drove a car into three young men killing them ? Not condoning of course, just understanding ….. any insights you wish to share ?