Like all bureaucracies in the control of the state, the police are generally inefficient and poorly run. There is also increasing evidence that some police officers are corrupt and take personal advantage of their position of authority, which they look to defend at all cost.

The police response to the riots was pusillanimous and what happened in the last week reinforces the notion that it is up to individuals to take responsibility for defending themselves, their families and their property from attack and that they should be allowed the means to do so.

It is time we had a rethink of the whole relationship between the public, government and police.

If the police can’t or won’t cut it, how about more local vigilante patrols and neighbourhood action groups?

In the Los Angeles riots of 1992, the resident Koreans took up arms to protect their communities:

“During the riots, many Koreans from throughout the area rushed to Koreatown, after Korean-language radio stations called for volunteers to guard against rioters. Many were armed, with a variety of improvised weapons, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

@2: yes, in Los Angeles Koreans did things. But the law there is different from Britain, and European countries in general. In most of Europe, you cannot even carry a handgun for self defence. In Britain, handguns are completely illegal. Only the criminals have guns (and some of the police, but they are often not there when needed).

If the state wants to have a monopoly on violence, it should also take care that it enforces the laws. It’s a bad deal that ordinary, law-abiding citizens cannot defend themselves, but criminals can roam freely (and if they are arrested, the punishment is a piece of paper).

They have a tough job, making split second decisions, and no-one, not even a Newsnight interviewer, would have been prepared for the first outbreak.

But there does seem to be a pattern. In a nutshell, the Met is ultra-macho in dealing with peaceful climate camp demonstrators, but comes all over softly-softly when faced with violent looters. With the honourable exception that you quote above.

2. Bob B

“If the police can’t or won’t cut it, how about more local vigilante patrols and neighbourhood action groups?

In the Los Angeles riots of 1992, the resident Koreans took up arms to protect their communities:

“During the riots, many Koreans from throughout the area rushed to Koreatown, after Korean-language radio stations called for volunteers to guard against rioters. Many were armed, with a variety of improvised weapons, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots“

You sure do enjoy demonising Black people in an underhand nasty way don’t you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latasha_Harlins

It’s mission accomplished for the police. They played a blinder…. for their own interests. They sat there and did nothing for 24 hours and watched it burn baby burn. No big deal if Tottenham goes up in smoke or Hackney. They would have stepped in if it had spread to Westminster’s posher areas. But they could not care less if the scum burned down the areas where the police have little support.

After political pressure they finally got off the asses and did something. Now the police budgets will be protected, and more important for the police, cracking heads is back in fashion. Funny how they will Kettle protestors but not rioters. They could of done , but they chose not to for their own agenda. Don’t bother complaining the next political march when some one gets beaten to death by the police because the media will just scream “they could be rioters.” Rioters have become the new terrorists. More power will be given to the police after this. It’s a win ,win for the police. Oh, and Murdoch and his police corruption has all been swept away.

Thanks Jenny.
Here’s my take, picking out a rather different aspect of the police’s responsibility for this fiasco…:

http://rupertsread.blogspot.com/2011/08/why-are-riots-happening-ignored-report.html

There is some garbage being spoken here? Typical liberal leanings blaming the police for mindless violence and wanton distruction perpetrated by a cross section of society. I don’t recall many responses on here on Monday predicting what would happen?

Yes the police were caught short and were at first responding what was initially a potential isolated riot over the shooting of mark duggan. The subsequent outbreaks were so sporadic and unpredictable it was nye on impossible to deal with without extra resources which then came fto
A over the country.

The post is a very interesting one asking a lot of pertenant questions without rushing to judge, unlike some of the posts on here? Yes let’s have the debate but can we have grown up one please !

Just as an aside how many of you would put up with this?

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/

PS it’s the high blood pressure post I was referring to

Hi Jenny, dont you think that you & fellow “Leftwingers” must take some responibility ? By routinely defending Students/UK Uncut/ “Anarchists when they broke windows & attacked The Police dont you think “The Left” made it easier for these Riots to happen ?

The police will never improve their performance as long as they have tossers like skooter defending them every time they fuck up. And they don’t need to improve because the Skooter’s off this world will always defend them. Unless of course they stop him for drink driving.

@6 Sally,

Well said. Totally on the money.

@5: “You sure do enjoy demonising Black people in an underhand nasty way don’t you?”

I don’t enjoy it but believe we need to analyse and illuminate the context and go beyond simplistic tautologies like: rioting is done by the criminals who riot or because we now have a more menacing underclass.

I’m truly appalled by news reports like this:

Two teenage girls shot dead outside a party in Birmingham were the innocent victims of a gang feud, a murder trial jury has been told.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3994251.stm

An Old Bailey jury has been shown “shocking” footage of the moment a 16-year-old schoolgirl was fatally shot in a pizza shop. Agnes Sina-Inakoju died 36 hours after being shot as she waited for pizza in Hackney, east London, in April 2010.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12678632

A DAD-of-four who split up a fight in a McDonald’s was shot dead moments after being told he wouldn’t see the morning.
Raymond Mitchell, 34, had only popped into the restaurant to buy a hot chocolate. But he apparently caused offence after splitting up two men fighting in the queue.
One of them, who had several gold teeth, shouted at Raymond: “You are gonna die tonight, you are not gonna see the morning.”
http://www.eutimes.net/2011/04/dad-who-split-up-fight-in-mcdonalds-shot-dead/

A close friend of Ricardo Cox has hit out at the “cowards” who gunned down the straight A student in cold blood. A post mortem examination found Ricardo was shot twice in the upper body in Derby Road, West Croydon at around 9.20pm on Wednesday.
http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/3937873.Drive_by_killing__just_like_LA_/

I also find it very sad to read riot news like this:

David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham – where the riots started – said that 45 local residents had lost their homes to arson. “They were running out of their homes carrying their children in their arms, and their cry is, ‘where were the police?’”, he said. As part of the austerity measures, police budgets are to be cut by a fifth which could result in over 16,000 officers being lost by 2015.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/54c83e10-c42a-11e0-b302-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1UkpXefJh

@Jenny Jones, London AM, OP:

“The fires and violence were incredibly frightening for residents, and must have been for the police and other emergency services.”

Of course they were. Why do you need to say it?

“Yet, many Londoners feel very let down by the police.”

Londoners were and were not let down by the police force. It is acknowledged that many disturbances qualified as riots. If a disturbance kicked off near you, why didn’t you go down there to cool tempers. Many brave citizens did it.

“The first and most obvious question is whether we had enough officers out there to deal with the troublemakers.”

Err, ‘cos the coppers didn’t know in advance. And why assume that a civil protest requires police surveillance. Do you want coppers on the street in riot gear every day?

“We must also ask why the police took so long to catch up with unfolding events.”

Look at the dictionary to understand the word ‘unfolding’. If an object is unfolding, it is difficult to catch.

“The Met must again consider how they can create flexible and adaptive public order tactics and training to cope with what may come in the months and years ahead.”

Mega patronising. But please write your predictions about future requirements

“Should the Met have worked hand in hand with shopkeepers determined to protect their neighbourhoods, and can they do so without promoting vigilante behaviour?”

Obviously, you are unclear between the difference between self protection and vigilantism.

“One final question on police tactics: what role does leadership play?”

In the last few days, we have seen leadership by civilians who have occupied space and thus denied it to rioters. And coppers aren’t civil leaders.

Sally how many complaints of brutality. Have been made against the police?

I bet you watched it all from the comfort of your armchair and didn’t do a fucking thing to protect your community. It’s gobshites like you who encourage wankers to destroy their own communities.

Trooper Thompson where were you when your community needed you? Havin a pint of mild and smoking rollies no doubt in your local putting the world to rightes?

@ 17

Oh sorry Skooter, I misunderstood. I thought you wanted grown-up debate? Now you’re coming over all emotional.

Trooper Thompson,

@6 Sally,

Well said. Totally on the money.

Are you a libertarian perchance?

Which is odd, because I doubt Sally is.

@19,

she is, but don’t tell ‘er. Me? Yeah. And yourself? You’re not one of those brownshirt butler-types, I hope?

Trooper, you are right and I aplogise. I should not have strayed from my usual addage of

Never engage in debate with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!

@ Skooter,

I think the addage you should apply to yourself is: It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

I don’t even know what you’re arguing with me about anyway.

Trooper my consternation is with Sally resorting to personal insults, ergo my initial response, rather than yourself.

Yes, all very interesting, but you have not answered the question Skooter. How are the police ever going to improve when police apologists like you always defend them no matter how badly they act?

The police are now throwing a hissy fit because politicians and residents have dared to criticise their actions for the first 48 hours of the riots. (quite rightly by the way) Why should the police be exempt from criticism? Politicians have no problem attacking other public sector workers like teachers, and social workers, or nurses when they screw up. so why are the police to be treated with kid gloves?

The police are now behaving like spoiled Premiership footballers who are never criticised by the manger in public . The federation rep was whining because he believes criticism should be done behind “closed doors. “ (The federation is a trade union for Norman Tebbit’s) Why? The police are a public service, and they deserve to be given criticism when they mess up. The trouble with too many of the police is that they think of themselves as the private army of the tory party. They think they are accountable to tame tories rather than the broader public.

The met has no problem controlling political protestors, but they performed like crap for the first 2 days.

Sally what frustrates me is that most criticism of the police is not objective. It is from a position of ignorance in how things work within the police.

If you were doing a performance review fo any worker you would hilight the good points in their performance and address the area of poor performance with an action plan that is specific, manageable, achievable and reveiwable. How is just hurling insults contructive and going to affect change?

Just to throw crirtisism without any constructive critique indicates that your perspective is skewed either by negetive contact with the police or by just adopting an anti police as an arm the state position. Either way you dont allow any objectvity into your arguement.

I have family in the police and when you put aside your prejudices and have a contructive dialogue you begin to understand they are like any other group of workers doing a job trying to raise and support a family. Believe me not many coppers have any time for this Tory government.

“Sally what frustrates me is that most criticism of the police is not objective”

Bullshit. The police did not act fast enough for the first 2 days, and it took politicians flying back from their holidays to get the police to get proper numbers onto the street. Either the police sat on their hands for 48 hours for their own reasons. (i.e. they don’t like the cuts and wanted to make a point) or they were incompetent. That is FUCKING OBJECTIVE

“I have family in the police ”

So finally you admit self interest. Hardly objective are you?”

” Believe me not many coppers have any time for this Tory government.”

Of course they don’t. They want a far right wing govt that pours lots of money at them, and never criticizes them , and turns the other way when they screw up.

so what is your alternative then?

@ 27 skooter

“so what is your alternative then?”

I’m not going to criticise the response time – I have no idea of the logistics involved in mobilising huge numbers of riot police, and for all I know they acted with admirable speed. But it is a bit depressing to hear things like this:

“One police officer, asked by an elderly resident why more had not been done to stop the rioters, replied: ‘The way we look at it, we’re damned if we do, we’re damned if [we] don’t.’”

(That’s from the Mail here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023254/Tottenham-riot-Mark-Duggan-shooting-sparked-police-beating-girl.html#ixzz1UqGIurar, but it’s been widely reported)

The police overall put themselves on the line for us and should be thanked, but are some cops refusing to get involved because they’ve got a chip on their shoulder about previous criticisms? That’s not good.

@28 Chaise

I am not and never have done suggesting that the police got everything right. As I said in my earlier post the article raises some pertenent points that need to be anwered but this should be done in the cold light of day instead of rushing to judgements with only half a picture.

I have a concern that senior officers told officers on the ground to go softly softly in the hope that it would all blow over very quickly and they were totally unprepared for what unfolded.

I also do think that they were paralised by fear of criticism in previous operations. The whole public order planning book needs an overall and maybe it is an ideal time to review kettling?

@29 Skooter

IMO most of your analysis is absolutely on the correct lines.

You only need to add that the Police didn’t understand the organising and communications power of social networking websites and they under-estimated the influence of ethnic gangs – which is not to say that all rioting and looting were gang-related.

But it would be a mistake to assume that gang-culture is necessarily ethnic – try this for comparison:

Bestwood Estate in Nottingham was ruled by Colin Gunn – a man who was feared by some and revered by others. His Bestwood Army policed the streets – and murdered and tortured for revenge and respect, residents said.

He was Mr Big – some would say the Godfather – but he is now in jail serving time for murder and corruption.

Pat Chambers, a community worker in Bestwood, said: “The Godfather – that was Colin Gunn. He was the boss and everybody was frightened of him.

“If you had a problem, you didn’t go to the police. You went to Colin and Colin sorted it.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/6908816.stm

@ 29 skooter

“I am not and never have done suggesting that the police got everything right. As I said in my earlier post the article raises some pertenent points that need to be anwered but this should be done in the cold light of day instead of rushing to judgements with only half a picture.”

Aye, fair enough.

“I have a concern that senior officers told officers on the ground to go softly softly in the hope that it would all blow over very quickly and they were totally unprepared for what unfolded.”

Possibly. And in fact, at the time it could genuinely have been the right decision. It’s easy for us to judge with benefit of hindsight.

“I also do think that they were paralised by fear of criticism in previous operations. The whole public order planning book needs an overall and maybe it is an ideal time to review kettling?”

I think it’s revealing that kettling in the 21st century has so far been used against peaceful protesters, but not against violent thugs.

This was what I was getting at, though – the idea that police were paralysed by fear of criticism, or more realistically, obtusely refusing to act due to feeling hard-done-by by previous criticism. Does the guy quoted really think that because the police were roundly criticised for being heavy-handed with legitimate protesters, that means they’ll get the same reaction for dealing with people who are smashing windows, stealing TVs and burning down buildings? I doubt it. I reckon he had a bit of a victim complex and was taking satisfaction in giving the people “what they deserved” by letting thugs run riot. I could be wrong, but it’s difficult to think of other realistic motives.

@30. Bob B: “Bestwood Estate in Nottingham was ruled by Colin Gunn…”

Colin Gunn is a criminally insane man who led a bunch of gangsters that imported drugs, ran protection rackets, controlled the sale of stolen property and killed people. No doubt he had a few youths cycling around on BMX bikes conducting some business for him.

That is an entirely different scenario from a street gang.

@32: “Colin Gunn is a criminally insane man ”

That gives a completely misleading impression of his formidable “business” capabilities. By reports, he had amassed a personal £15m fortune through his criminal enterprises, enough to buy him intelligence from within the local police force.

If you read up the reported investigation details, the chief constable of Nottinghamshire had to set up a covert unit within the local police force in order to conduct the long investigation for fear that its progress would be leaked. Gunn depended on and bought support in his local neighbourhood through the tried ‘n’ tested Robin Hood way of being a generous local benefactor, as were the Krays.

Surely, these were not typical street gangs embraced by ‘dispossessed and alienated’ youth but we and the police have much to learn about the glue of gang cultures. As posted before, a good starting point to give a detached perspective is Martin Scorsese’s movie: Gangs of New York (2002), where the rival gangs had ethnic roots:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York

Btw according to recent press reports, for security reasons Gunn is now being held in the Belmarsh Prison in Northern Ireland, within a special unit originally designed to contain NI terrorists.

Yet, many Londoners feel very let down by the police.
No they don’t

absorb tensions such as those arising from the death of Mark Duggan
the rioting wasnt’ due to duggans death, there was tension buiding up through boredom for weeks, it was looting pure and simple

poor sentence construction to go from ,why did it take the police so long to go to there was violece agaisnt sutdents last year,too….