It can only be prevented by strengthening local communities – whether rich or poor – so they can quickly work together when a local riot arises. I’ve not heard many others address this at all.

I’m very much inclined to agree. Worstall’s actually making similar points, policing in the UK works by consent, numbers are low but they can handle most things as we want them to handle it and people in general believe they’re controlling things.

When that control illusion is gone, breakouts happen.

What would be good is if JPs and similar live embedded in their communities (they frequently are but can be drawn from the wealthy areas and detached) and are able to actually exercise their powers to deputise and organise in the event of disorder. People referred to the Dalton community reaction at times as vigilantism–I saw it as a perfect example of what should be happening.

We shouldn’t clear the streets, we should fill the streets.

Surely the simplest way to avoid the escalation of riots, would be to not spark off another riot, and we all know full fucking well which two incidents, with plenty of other preceding grievances ladled on top, led to the initial riot.

Plus conditions were favourable for escalation – warm dry weather with plenty of restless youngsters kicking their heels during the summer holidays. It’s not for nothing that the riots died on their arse once it started pissing it down and was a bit chilly.

MatGB Sorry I missed your closing comment Fill the Streets – great idea How much angst might have been saved if only the community had come out in strength to promenade peacefully.

sorry about the problem with the comments. I put a little widget in the middle and it ended up messing up the comments system.

Heh, if you do insist on playing with little widgets I’m sure no one objects

PRetty sure Dave’s got a comment missing, and I’ve replied to his second comment on t’other thread, but, y’know.

(Dave, I think it’d work assuming it was a peacful community action and the police didn’t start beating people up, we have to hope we can make progress in that regard as well)

Hi Sunny,

A very good point you’ve picked up on, and I think the answer may be in local micro-blogging. A couple of people in my part of London have started local twitter accounts, in my case West Hampstead and Swiss Cottage. Fortunately on the riot days these areas were not attacked but we did start sharing information about possiblle disturbances in Kilburn (which were false) and some of the rioters in Camden who started heading for Hampstead (which came to nothing). I don’t know if similar things exist in other areas but it would seem a good idea if local people got together so that different loacl organisations could work together in situations like this, by following each other on Twitter…

[6] That’s all very well, but what about those of us – mainly oldies of course – who (a) don’t know how Twitter works and (b) don’t want to spend £20-£40 a month on a fancy mobile phone?

Mike? Why do you need to have a phone? She didn’t mention phones that I can see.

Of course, given you can buy a Blackberry for £20 and put in a pay-go SIM, that point’s moot anyway.

But Twitter? It’s a website, you go there, sign up, and play around, same as any other website that helps you talk to people. I know many “oldies” on Twitter, and many others that can’t be arsed with it. But they mostly know others that can use it–you have friends, right?

Sunny – you miss the point. At the end of the day, what counts is who is the biggest, toughest force in the area.

In Dalston, it’s the Turks. In Southall, it’s the Sikhs. In Eltham, it’s the whites. All three communities are dominated by patriarchal blokes in their 40s, 50s and 60s who command the respect of younger men.

Contrast that with areas like Clapham where there are only micro-communities, many of them wimpish middle class or transient yuppies. Or Peckham where the hardest people are the gangstas.

It’s places like Peckham (and Tottenham and Harlesden) and Clapham (and Ealing and Islington) that most need the police to step into the vacuum of authority.

Traditional working class communities in relatively deprived areas of Yorkshire, Scotland and the North East remained calm because men still communicate generationally in these places.

The other key determinant is the presence of young black males. They are more deeply estranged from mainstream society than any other group. Not even the neds of Glasgow or the scallies of Liverpool are so unrelentingly at war with civilisation.

To what extent is everything wrapped into the ‘riot’ meme by the media?

Here is an amusing clip about the riots in Edinburgh. It makes the point far more eloquently than I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG-XWBVdonQ

To be fair to Mike (7) he has a good point. Social media are all well and good, but you still need people being active in person, out there.Sharing information etc is admirable, but people need to get away from looking at screens.
This applies to both sides of the equation, social media (and BBM) being but a neutral tool both to the problems and to the answers, and neither a cause nor a solution: maybe someone can explain why, despite extensive social media activity (and BBM) the riots didn’t spread further and have a broader geographic spread?
For example the bandwagon stopped dead in Glasgow, which has a long and ignoble gang history. Sure, some neds tried, using social media to get things started, and a couple of kids began to kick in shop windows.It could have all gone wrong,until someone slapped them about the head and told them to go home to mummy. A big cheer followed….

This article makes a good point, although I still think economics has a lot to do with it.

It’s true large parts of London have absolutely nil sense of community. People don’t know their neighbours. But that’s because in London hardly anyone seems to live in the same flat or even area of the city for more than about a year, let alone spends their whole life there. Yes, some areas like Camden and Hackney maybe have a community of a sort since they attract young people with shared ideas and interests (perhaps that’s what MatGB is seeing on Twitter). But for most places, no.

But this is at least partly an economic issue too. First, if you’re not to be derided as a feckless layabout, you need to “get on your bike and look for work”. There’s no work whatsoever outside London in many occupations, bluntly. This results in huge flows of young people to London from other places in the UK and further afield, and also within London as people change jobs. Most people are expected to move anywhere for employment these days, no matter what: that’s the price of a flexible labour market. I doubt anyone in my block considers themselves a long term resident of the area; so there’s not a lot of incentive to join organisations and make friends.

Second, most people who arrived in London for work don’t want to settle to bring up kids unless they are megawealthy. A family sized home costs too much. In large areas of the capital, schools are appalling and gang-riddled unless you pay fees (the result, of course, of previous people fleeing London to raise kids). The school age population is hyper-polarised, between those too poor to get out and those too rich to need to, with fewer people than normal in-between. A lot of people who can afford it go to live in the surrounding counties where that isn’t a problem, and pay the price in commuting for hours (resulting in no community in many of those places either, since people have no time for it).

Just telling people to be more community minded isn’t likely to have any great impact, just as parents of teenage tearaways aren’t about to change the way they deal with their kids just because David Cameron has made some tough speeches about moral discipline. Most people ignore what politicians say, completely and entirely, except to get angry at them occasionally for not doing anything.

If you want to have sustainable local communities, you need to have a more regulated housing market, encourage economic activity to move out of London into other cities and towns, and encourage a more localised economy where people work locally (a situation we had 30 years ago or more, actually, which I suppose makes the Green Party a strangely conservative organisation).

I was talking to a close friend of mine, and asked, “If you were driving past a looted shot and someone had left a plasma TV dumped on the floor (as pictured in one blog), what would you do?” “I’d have it straight in the boot,” she replied, quick as a flash. “You wouldn’t, though.” And she wouldn’t, not least because of the kind of job she does – a conviction for handling stolen goods would see her fired and stripped of her professional status.

I’d like to think it’s also because she’s a good person – and she is. In her professional life, she is spotlessly honest and extraordinarily kind. But her morality is not drawn from the ten commandments. She wants to do her job well, serve the public, and look after her family. “Thou shalt not steal” is not an absolute among these more important social demands.

In another life, where she didn’t make it professionally…

The other key determinant is the presence of young black males. They are more deeply estranged from mainstream society than any other group

Dave @ 9.

This is an aspect of what happened that people only seem prepared to discuss “sotto voce” because of fear of being tarred as racists.

It is certainly true that most of the the London boroughs and the other cities where rioting occurred have relatively high areas of Afro-Caribbean and Black ethnicity and the evidence seems to point to a level of involvement by young people of these ethnic groups out of proportion to their population demographic.

Perhaps it is true that this involvement was due to young black males being “more deeply estranged from mainstream society” or it may be true that their disproportionate involvement was due to other, more self-controllable cultural factors in their communities and heritage.

Or maybe both are true and one is a consequence of the other.

Discuss, if you dare!!!!

Consider it a pressure cooker. Inputs create pressure, the structure contains it and relief systems are in place to ‘let off steam’.

From some sources we hear about cuts, wealth inequality, etc. Those are the inputs creating the pressure. Other sources talk about respect, single mothers, creating communities – control, conformity, restriction. Those all all the fabrics making up the structure.

So anyone want to talk about pressure relief systems?

[12] very well put – strongly agree that not only affordable, but DECENT housing is an essential building block for any community.

The average house price in Greater London is £419,091 (April – June 2011) – and breaks down as follows;
Detached £724,568
Semi-detached £426,620
Terrace £463,695
Flat £358,201
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county39.stm

Now we all know that social housing will become a virtual mirage over the next few years so a very sizable proportion of the (growing) population remain at the mercy of private landlords.

I don’t expect Cameron or Clegg to do very much about this problem but surely after 13 years of Labour government the housing stock should have reached a slightly more equitable state?

Maybe it explains why even university graduates were helping themselves during the looting – not only is it unlikely that they will be able to buy property in London, but they are starting out adult life hamstrung by ever growing tuition fee debts?

Deeply in hock to the banks at such a tender age – nice?

One of the points I’ve seen (John B says I got it from him and, well, maybe) is that of technological change.

We’ve had riots and looting since forever. In this particular case I tend to think that the second, third nights (and even the length of the first, right into the next morning) were because of those Twitter, Blackberry, technologies. The rioters had a new technology with which to outmanouvre the police.

By night 4 police tactics had caught up. End of rioting.

Until the next technological shift.

An anaology is that the Generals are always planning to fight the last war……

[16] And don’t forget the £60k debt the new graduate is saddled with.

The best way to prevent a riot is to schedule a tennis tournament and let the inevitable rain which follows keep the rioters at home.

Ironically, hoodies don’t keep you dry.

‘People referred to the Dalton community reaction at times as vigilantism–I saw it as a perfect example of what should be happening.’

Its probably a bit of both, with a bit of Big Society thrown in, and possibly even Mutual Aid.

They won’t get much support from the Left though while you’ve got the likes of Ben White promoting articles denouncing even those who *swept up* afterwards as ‘fascists’.

…. or whatever else rubbish the right has conjured up.

That attitude is a big part of the problem too IMO. If you’re in an ideological war with the right, then every last thing someone says from the right has to be dismissed.
So if someone says that the rap street culture makes it more likely for young people to be influenced by criminality …. that has to be dismissed as nonsense before even looking into it. Even though the evidence of all the post code gangs is there all around to be seen.
The idea of community is a bit of a joke too. There are often communities, but if you are not part of one, it’s not so easy to join. Brixton is not an example of a harmonious community. Black and white often live and socialise separately. Same in Clapham, and someone even complained that residents who came out to clean up the day after were trying to brush the problems of social inequality under the carpet.

For all the passive-aggressive conscience salving however, the outraged ensemble with their newly purchased brooms still need to face up to the rampant inequalities and social exclusion that a gentrification of urban neighbourhoods (usually by them) exacerbates.

http://universityforstrategicoptimism.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/riotcleanup-or-riotwhitewash/

So much for community there then. And am I right in thinking that there were few black faces at that peace event in Birmingham yesterday? One black woman campaigner said on the news that her community’s own march about a death in police custody had not been supported by other communities, so that’s why sunday’s one wasn’t particularly supported.

How do you stop anger and resentment becoming alienation and detachment from society? Jobs. Jobs at all skill levels that offer career progression, decent terms of employment and wages that are high enough not to need topping up with benefits. Unfortunately this government (and the last) think a regime of ever increasing punishment is what’s needed in welfare instead of real help. Today Tesco, Sainsbury, Poundland and Hilton Hotels have been named as using workfare slaves without any intention of employing them. We are approaching the tipping point where the terms of claiming benefits (which have halved in real terms over the past thirty years) are becoming so onerous and paying jobs so unpleasant for the poor that crime is becoming preferable.

Either tax for an expansion of the state into better welfare and state funded jobs in areas that the private sector wants too high a profit from – infrastructure, green energy, housing renewal etc. or buy yourself a kevlar vest and a Jankel Hilux

‘So if someone says that the rap street culture makes it more likely for young people to be influenced by criminality …. that has to be dismissed as nonsense before even looking into it.’

To be fair, I’ve seen Left-ish commentators blaming Hip Hop too – though not necessarily naming it directly: they tend to hide behind euphemisms like ‘American’ (or ‘Yank’) culture. Even those naming Gangsta Rap directly will point out that the music industry is run by Whitey to avoid accusations of racism.

And its all bollocks in any case, illustrating a massive lack of understanding about Hip Hop in the USA, and how it is consumed in the UK.

Of course you’re aware that it’s not rioting don’t you?

It’s actually the continuation of the same behaviour that goes on week in week out, but on a larger scale and outside the confines of the estates where these kids come from.

Buildings burned out – check.
Local shops and businesses “taxed” – check.
Emergency services outnumbered and attacked – check.

I’m not justifying it and I can only offer my own opinion on the causes, but if you’re a regular in one of these deprived areas (which only residents and certain govt. agencies seem to be), it’s not big news.

Great post. I would like to share more but I’m currently on my phone. (not a blackberry) I shall be revisting when I have more time.
Jessie.

Shatterface, it’s not just a case of ”blaming hip hop”.
Croydon’s largest street gang caused big problems for the police over the last few years.
A quick google search throws up all these articles about them.

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q=croydon+gangs+dsn&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9bcbc1af67a1ebc4&biw=683&bih=279

With up to a hundred members and affiliates, they had a rather corrosive effect on young people generally I would say.

The way you solve the “escalation problem” is by preventing the rioting from ever occurring in the first place. Gasp! Yes, I know, a radical suggestion.

And no, I don’t mean prevent the rioting from occurring by redistributing the nation’s wealth and insuring that everyone has access to to good quality hand woven yoghurt; I mean, if people want to riot, then the police should prevent them from doing so.

[24] “It’s actually the continuation of the same behaviour that goes on week in week out, but on a larger scale and outside the confines of the estates where these kids come from” – scale is undoubtedly the key factor which has triggered so much ‘state of the nation’ navel gazing.

In ’98 Tony said “Over the last two decades the gap between these ‘worst estates’ and the rest of the country has grown. It has left us with a situation that no civilised country should tolerate” and, “Some estates are beyond rescue and will never be places where people want to live”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/171530.stm

Tony’s ‘Social exclusion report’ found the UK still has “pockets of intense deprivation where the problems of unemployment and crime are acute and hopelessly tangled up with poor health, housing and education – many people are trapped by their surroundings which have become no-go zones for some and no-exit zones for others”.

It estimates that England alone has about 3,000 such neighbourhoods (same link).

I find it impossible to imagine that a few community activists can change a pattern that 13 years of Labour government failed to reverse in any significant way?

Well written and thoughtful piece.

‘I find it impossible to imagine that a few community activists can change a pattern that 13 years of Labour government failed to reverse in any significant way?’

It wasn’t really a priority for them, was it? Countries don’t invade themselves, you know.

[30] “Countries don’t invade themselves, you know” – indeed, a mad dictator (Saddam, not Tony) and a country with vast natural resources begging to be looted – it was hardly surprising the corporate giants quietly nudged Bush and Blair into an inevitable showdown.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/blood-and-oil-how-the-west-will-profit-from-iraqs-most-precious-commodity-431119.html

I think oil contracts are still being honored in Libya, but if things deteriorate we may need to invade them, on err, humanitarian grounds?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/8389397/BPs-contracts-in-Libya-still-valid-despite-turmoil.html

I’d like to sit David Starkey down in front of this excellent French rapping video and see what he made of it. From the estates around Paris. North Africans and other ethnic minorities united in some cause or other. I don’t understand French, but it sounds good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIGHEg50UiY

yup. Hundred percent agree with this post. A solution should be community organisation and cooperation on an epic scale.

Housing estates have got to be cooperatised into self run blocks so that people can get a first hand experience of empowerment and democracy and ownership of their area. Youth enterprise can be cooperatised as well. A lot of the Tory manifesto set out to do this.

Do you think the reason Mr young Labour doesn’t say anything about stronger community ties is cos by its nature this sort of connection challenges liberal separatist elites like the Labour party leadership?

I mean they used to be very involved in the community in Lewisham for example pre-New Labour, then the New Labourites skulduggered all the community minded sorts out in one go. None of this is secret. It has all been recorded.

I know you have joined an all Sunny, and I am sure for a good reason but are you worried that they might secretly be totally anti and maybe scarred of such community organisation?