Ooh they used “solidarity”.

Labourite heads explode in 3,2,1…

@1 – chapter one, verse one: “The current system is unsustainable…”

Labourite heads exploded right there!

@1 – chapter one, verse one: “The current system is unsustainable.”

Labourite heads exploded right there, didn’t they?

3 We refuse to pay for the banks’ crisis.
– Don’t vote Labour then! They socialised the banks debts!

4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.
– Fighting the wrong fight, Banks, Corporations and Billionaires lend money to the state when it wants to borrow, making BILLIONS of interest to the debt the taxpayer funds.

6 We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9th November, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment and to stop wars and arms dealing.
– Of course you do, you are a front for socialist worker.

7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.
– I walked past St Pauls today, HUGE queue outside Starbucks, everyone on iPhones, Blackberrys, bloggers with MacBooks. If you are going to take a position such as this for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster Practice what you preach!

8 We stand in solidarity with the global oppressed and we call for an end to the actions of our government and others in causing this oppression.
– But you want resources to not go towards the military? Good luck with that.

9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!
– Really? Who elected you? Who is your leader? If you really were the 99% why didn’t you instigate change at the 2010 election? Why are you occupying St Paul’s rather than voting booths?

Zoe’s Diary: I finally got up the nerve to start a conversation with the gorgeous Angus Raynor—talented surgeon, the hot topic at the hospital and infamous heartbreaker. I’m not worried about his reputation; after years of being treated like a china doll by my overprotective brothers, I’m about to strike out on my own on a round-the-world trip, so I don’t want anything serious. But does Angus?

herein, perhaps, lies the problem with specifc demands. Reading that I found myself, at times, thinking variants on: that’s wrong/ doesn’t make sense/dream on etc.

for me, what’s best about OWS is a simple expression of anger – it’s saying, things are shit and we want more than just a return to the status quo, pre-crisis. What I found most effective about the OWS is the US are simply the stories about how ordinary people are having a hard time, having their lives messed up, and the contrast being drawn with the 1% of super rich. Maybe rather than issue demands, which just give people like me something to disagree with, the UK lot would do better to concentrate on drawing attention to how lots of people are having bad time, and a few people are continuing to do very nicely thank you, and, implicitly, how the government seems to be quite happy with that / actively making it worse. I think it’s harder to disagree with that – you certainly don’t need to share the (activist) left’s prescriptions to be unhappy about the current state of affairs.

[but this is ‘political strategy’ – not my strong suit]

“We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.”

An interesting one, So how are we to achieve this absence of regulatory capture? People have been trying for millennia but never seem to quite manage it.

“We want structural change towards authentic global equality.”

Also interesting. So, more neo-liberal globalisation then? That is, after all, what has been reducing global inequality and boosting the incomes of the poor of the world for the past few decades.

” I think it’s harder to disagree with that – you certainly don’t need to share the (activist) left’s prescriptions to be unhappy about the current state of affairs.”

Its a “dammned if you do, dammned if you don’t” though, if you make demands then people instinctively hostile to the idea that protestors might be intelligent, articulate and informed start finding things to disagree with to re-affirm their prejudice. If you don’t make specific proposals and just highlight that some people are finding it ‘hard’ then the same people simply dismiss the movement as student radicals with no sense of practicality.

planeshift

well you might be right about the damned each way thing – certainly people will complain about a lack of specific demands, for understandable reasons. I still think it might be better to go the OWS USA route, which afaik has said it’s not about specific demands.

[I don’t know why you thiink disagreement with these demands stems from hostility to idea protestor might be intelliegent, and from a need to “re-affirm” prejudices. Maye for some, but for many disagreement is simple disagreement].

This morning as people have their mid morning tea breaks across the country, the conversations are much more likely to be about the X Factor and the weekend’s football, than OccupyLSX. By a factor of a hundred to one perhaps.

Do the activists who drew up that initial statement realise that most people just don’t care about that kind of thing? They might care about the issues, but are not about that kind of political protest. At the moment anyway.

“[I don’t know why you thiink disagreement with these demands stems from….a need to “re-affirm” prejudices”

I refer the honourable gentleman to Tyler’s comments in the other thread.

“Do the activists who drew up that initial statement realise that most people just don’t care about that kind of thing?”

Probably.

Do you think that means they should just go home? Or are protests only legitimate when the public care?

I suspect conversations about the x-factor also outnumber conversations about the lack of human rights in sub-saharan africa. So we may as well disband amnesty international.

Do you think that means they should just go home? Or are protests only legitimate when the public care?

Not at all. I wsh them all the best. It gives me something slightly interesting to follow and read about. But when I do read about it, like here in the Guardian, it does seem all rather silly and the kind of thing that would only appeal to a tiny minority.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/17/occupy-london-stock-exchange-camp?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

If you are into that kind of thing though, I’m sure it’s jolly good fun.
I had a mate who had been with the original Peace Convoy and at the Battle of the Beanfield. Those were the best days of his life he now reminisces.

“. But when I do read about it, like here in the Guardian, it does seem all rather silly and the kind of thing that would only appeal to a tiny minority.”

If you read about it in the guardian, it probably will seem silly and the kind of thing that appeals to a minority 😉

damon, I’ve never understood where you are coming from with that kind of post (“most people just don’t care”). What is the point in what you are saying?

ukliberty, I mean that I suspect that most people don’t care for ”#OccupyLSX”.
Not the causes, but the gropup of people themselves.

I also hate the kind of capitalism that we have. But I have to agree with those ‘enfant terribles’ at Spiked more than just a smidgen.

”In fact, for the hipsters of Zuccoti Park taking part in the OWS movement is itself a feelgood activity. There’s a carnival-like atmosphere, with drum circles, live blogging, workshops, a soup kitchen and a library. Far from posing a serious challenge to capitalism, they are exercising a shallow form of politics that easily lends itself to fashionable posturing.”

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/11161/

I agree with quite a lot of left causes but I just don’t like the left activists.
I find that they don’t have much self-awarness as to how they come across to people outside of their frame of mind.

Politics seems pretty polarised and pointless these days. It was summed up last night on the radio when there was this utterly stupid conversation on the late night Stephen Nolan show. The odious Edwina Curry caused outrage by insisting that no one was starving in the UK. ”Oh yes there is”…. came back the equally ridiculous and outraged callers into the programme.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15336931

@ 14 UKliberty

I’m pretty sure it’s that trick where you pretend to be supportive of a group while actually trying to attack them passive-agressively. Y’know: “Of COURSE I support you, but it’s all a bit silly, isn’t it? Well, I hope you’re having lots of fun, I used to enjoy this sort of thing too when I was a teenager” and so on.

It’s concern trolling, something spiked! have turned into a career option.

”In fact, for the hipsters of Zuccoti Park taking part in the OWS movement is itself a feelgood activity. There’s a carnival-like atmosphere, with drum circles, live blogging, workshops, a soup kitchen and a library.

What should the hipsters be doing? Wearing sackcloth and ashes instead of skinny jeans and silly hats? Protest should be deadly serious, should it? But FOX says they shouldn’t take themselves too seriously.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/10/16/five-lessons-occupy-wall-street-protesters-could-learn-about-finding-job-from/

It’s a tough one!

@ 17

“It’s concern trolling”

That’s the bunny.

That’s the bunny.

It might help if OWS and #OccupyLSX made it clear where they stood on these ”Tooting Popular Front” style embarrassments .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTXjiBQ3ta4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaJFKApX1KU

And if you say that’s just youngsters (which it is), what then about the SWP and assorted other communists who are all over these protests?
My main criticism of this movement (as I understand it from afar) is that it doesn’t take that kind of criticism lightly. Insisting that anyone who is skeptical must be a Fox News loving right winger, is part of what puts me off the whole thing.

“It might help if OWS and #OccupyLSX made it clear where they stood on these ”Tooting Popular Front” style embarrassments .”

“These days I’m not earning much. Mostly due to chopping and changing and taking time off work to travel and mess about.”

I hope you appreciate the irony.

@ 20 damon

“And if you say that’s just youngsters (which it is), what then about the SWP and assorted other communists who are all over these protests?”

The fact that a group of people shares one characteristic (in this case, anger at the banks and the financial system) does not make them responsible for every action taken by one another. This is a classic “tar with the same brush” gambit.

“My main criticism of this movement (as I understand it from afar) is that it doesn’t take that kind of criticism lightly.”

When you say “the movement”, do you mean every person or most people involved in it (as determined by survey or other such means)? Or do you mean its angriest bloggers and the lairy idiots that the media love to show on TV to discredit the whole thing?

”I hope you appreciate the irony”

I’m really not good with irony in general. And I can’t see any there.

”When you say “the movement”, do you mean every person or most people involved in it (as determined by survey or other such means)?”

I mean the people down at St Pauls of course. The ones in tents. The people who wrote that ”initial statement” notice.

I hate our blatant inequalities myself btw. I’m pretty poor. I haven’t put the heating on yet this year and last night was cold. I was wearing my wooly hat watching Newsnight.

@ 23 damon

“I mean the people down at St Pauls of course.”

Again: all of them? Most of them? Or the ones who got the most airtime? I’m sure your claim about them treating any dissent as a sign of right-wing lunacy is accurate in some cases, I just doubt that the group as a whole deserves to be judged like that.

“I’m really not good with irony in general. And I can’t see any there”

Well you’ve spent your entire career on libcon saying you dislike the stereotype of left wing activists.

Then you admit to being unable to hold down a job as you enjoy ‘messing about’ and going traveling. And then admit to wearing a wooly hat.

All you’ve got to do now is obtain some dreadlocks, and cannabis, and you’re the very person you claim to dislike.

Chaise Guevara, They’re the same people as these guys from the ”Just Do It” film I saw at the cinema.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNpeAMl5Ktw
Is a bit of eyerolling at that not allowed?

Planeshift, I didn’t say that ”I cant hold down a job”. I said I’ve chopped and changed.
I’ve moved around the country and been abroad for periods. Using employment agencies quite a lot and often for low skilled work. Sometimes that’s worked for me, and other times it hasn’t. Lately it’s been tougher.
What’s wrong with a hat btw? I only wear it out when it’s cold. It’s not that ”wooly” really – more of a ski hat. Like the skateboard kids wear.
And while I’ve got nothing against the ‘stoner’ type of people you’re describing, it’s not my thing. The people who I actually dislike, are authoritarian lefty liberals who are very judgemental of others.
Regular lefty liberals are fine, just not the bossy ones.

As I said earlier, I hate the rich …… but I’m somwhat torn, because I like some of this over the top diatribe from Brendan O’Neill too.

”Occupy Wall Street confirms the descent of left-wing activism from the dizzy heights of desiring to liberate mankind from need into the cesspool of conspiratorial thinking, priestly moralism and low horizons.

There was a time when the Left had faith in the working man. Indeed, the entire premise of the Left was that this class of people had it in them to shake up and remake the world. Now, as confirmed by Occupy Wall Street, the Left has nothing but disdain for what it views as the fat, feckless, Fox News-addicted inhabitants of mass society.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/wall-street-occupiers-are-an-insult-to-the-workers/story-e6frg6zo-1226167979536

@ 26 Damon

“The people who I actually dislike, are authoritarian lefty liberals who are very judgemental of others.”

Have to agree with that, actually, even if I’m occasionally accused of being one.

@15 “I suspect that most people don’t care for ”#OccupyLSX”.
Not the causes, but the group of people themselves…..

I find that they don’t have much self-awarness as to how they come across to people outside of their frame of mind.”

Well put. Exactly my observation of many politicos and activists also.