Do you know why your party is finished as an electoral force. Because you can write a piece like that, saying why you are forced to speak out & giving your reasons why you think the Coalition should end; and nowhere amongst your reasons are the damage to the NHS in which your party are complicit, or the misery being caused to thousands by ATOS/DWP, or the futures being destroyed by Gove as he pursues his ideology – but you give great credence to the importance of Lords Reform.

The problem is not that Nick Clegg has lost his way, frankly you all have.

What Andy said.

. Andy

Do you know why your party is finished as an electoral force. Because you can write a piece like that, saying why you are forced to speak out & giving your reasons why you think the Coalition should end; and nowhere amongst your reasons are the damage to the NHS in which your party are complicit, or the misery being caused to thousands by ATOS/DWP, or the futures being destroyed by Gove as he pursues his ideology – but you give great credence to the importance of Lords Reform.

The problem is not that Nick Clegg has lost his way, frankly you all have.

Bravo Sir, Bravo !

What Andy said +1

Andy could not have said it better.

All the privatisation is madness, the police are next, NHS done. There is even talk if the army using contractors / mercenaries in future.

You have allowed the disabled to be treated as benefit thieves and many have suffered. That is unforgivable.

The thing that makes me laugh or maybe cry is how naive Lib Dems were and still are about the nature of the tories. You NEVER appease tories, they will never reward you, and they will always stab you in the back.

You should never have gone into coalition for such pathetically small returns. A referendum on a voting system you did not want was insane. You should have let the tories form a minority govt, and promised to assist on the budget. Then stand back and watch the tories tear themselves apart. Cameron did not win an outright victory and the right hated him for it. And then you lot bumbled in and saved him.

When your political opponent is drowning, you throw them an anvil. But you went further, you agreed to NHS reform, even though it was not in the agreement, or the tory manifesto. You are doomed now to two years of humiliation, as the tories play to their base and the tory media. Either cave in to their right wing demands or be humiliated in the tory press.

No.

The least worst option for the LibDemswould have been to let the Tories govern as a minority party, and to vote with them where you agreed with them

Trouble is, the LibDems are not a centrist party

They are Tories without the guts to admit they are Tories

So they joined in, abandoning stated principles for the sniff of power

Nothing to add to what Andy said.

You talk of the shamelessness of Labour when you belong to a party in coalition with the Tories? Pot, kettle & black spring to mind. your party were played for the delusional fools they are in 2010. You don’t even have the gumption to withdraw when it is blatantly apparent that none of your policies will ever be sanctioned. the Tories despise you, the electorate despise you. The only place you have left is to withdraw and maybe give yourselves time to attempt to regain some credibility. The worst of it is I don’t blame the Tories for what is happening in the country. They were always going to do it. It’s what they do. I blame your party for making it happen. The electorate didn’t put them there, your party did. Your party were just too willfully blind and power hungry to appreciate the damage they were going to inflict on the country.

Almost as much fun as the days of Owen & Steel (I’d forgotten what an amazing dancer Owen was)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzyejwELMNo

Andy has it right. Not a hint of contrition or guilt in this piece just a load of self-serving tosh about how the coalition has failed the Lib Dems. Nothing about how the Lib Dems have failed the country. The Lib Dems have done more than any party in UK history to bring democracy into disrepute. Campaigning on one thing to gain votes and then entering a government with the exact opposite policies should be a criminal offence and their part in facilitating a Tory government it is no exaggeration to say has cost lives and will cost lives for years to come.

Liberalism is not supposed to be halfway between socialism and conservatism, but pulling in a wholly different direction to both.

The Lib Dems forgot this and are now paying the price. The left, who always despised them, have now whipped themselves into a blood-lusting frenzy over their betrayal, and the Tories have no reason to help them.

The libdems are certainly finished i think as the third party. The time to pull out of the coalition, was when the changes to the NHS were proposed. The voters won’t forgive them. I won’t forgive them. I voted for them.

I’ve lived through a lot of Governments, and this tory led coalition is the worst ever. I cannot remember a time when the sick and disabled were treated with such contempt.

Liberal voice is filled with delusional lib dems. One moron was even boasting about the fact that there are actually more lib dems in govt than before the reshuffle. Apparently a few junior bag carriers at oversea development makes up for none at The FO, and Defence in lib dem world.

There are many pissed of libs in the comment section, but the articles are full of happy clappy optimism. It’s a political party run by 5 year olds.

As someone who voted LibDem in both the last two general elections, the wake-up call for me was the total abandonment of absolute promises re: tuition fees. At that point, I resolved not to vote LibDem at the next election. The (at best) spineless capitulation to the Tories over NHS “reform” (if it’s not spineless then it’s just as deliberately destructive as the Tories themselves) relegated them to the position that I can no longer envisage EVER voting LibDem again.

I know several others of the same opinion. It’s hard to see the LibDems recovering for a generation, if ever.

As of October I will be an ex Lib Dem.

The Tories accuse their leadership of the tail wagging the dog whenever the Lib Dems attempt anything. In other countries the smaller party frequently causes Shaken Doggy Syndrome. Clegg has been supine – an extra member of the Tories rather than the leader of another party with a different philosophy.

I am leaving over Welfare Reform which I find has been carried out in a despicable way.

I believe with the reshuffle the government has moved to the right, making our position even more untenable. Will the last lefty leaving Cowley Street turn out the lights? At least we can keep to our green principles by reducing our carbon footprint…

Quite how a Lib Dem can sanctimoniously describe Labour as ‘shameless’ and constantly make a show of their supposed moral superiority when they, as a party, are known for their dirty tricks on the ground is beyond me.

If the LibDems are finished as the third force in UK politics – and they may be – presumably you folks realise that means UKIP will pick up the slack. With their libertarian and pro market ideas, I’m presuming they don’t strike you as a more suitable option. And while the LibDems might welcome a coalition with Labour in the next election if it comes to that, you can bet that UKIP wouldn’t. That’s not something I would lose any sleep over.

It’s funny reading all the LibDem bashing on here, confirming my suspicion of liberalconspiracy.org as a Labour mouthpiece, having very little to do with liberalism. Time to drop the pretence and rename the site to socialconspiracy.org. You surely cannot trust that party of authoritarian control freaks with remotely liberal policies, and if you do, all I can say is you must have a very short memory.

@18

UKIP may well split the right wing vote, just as the SDP did for the left, giving us Thatcher. I can live with the Right fragmenting for a generation or two.

+1 with Andy on the NHS and the way you have colluded in the disgraceful treatment of sick, vulnerable and disabled people.

@ Dave H,

Liberal Conspiracy has always been left of centre, which meant, prior to the last election, Labour, the Lib Dems minus the ‘evil’ orange-bookers and miscellaneous reds of various hues. Now the Lib Dems are being kicked out of the gang for obvious reasons.

It’s not Liberal Conspiracy which has changed its alignment, but the Lib Dems, who have been peddling a sort of weak-kneed socialism for donkeys’ years, and now have revealed themselves to be mostly opportunists.

My hope is that they will rediscover what liberalism used to mean, embrace their wilderness status and re-establish liberalism as a separate entity, rather than as a mid-point between left and right.

the misery being caused to thousands by ATOS/DWP

Except that neither the Tories nor the Lib Dems were responsible for either ATOS or ESA.

There really isn’t an electoral choice on this: its either the coalition continuing with the system, the Tories carrying it on on their own, or the fuckers who dreamt up this abomination in the first place and now seek electoral advantage blaming someone else.

Nick Barlow has been brave enough and man enough to admit his party`s failings. He is concerned for the PEOPLE of this country now, not who`s to blame, as his priority. We can have that argument once we`ve removed this brutal coalition, hopefully saving the NHS from Jeremy hunt and their friends with wallets.

If the LibDems are finished as the third force in UK politics – and they may be – presumably you folks realise that means UKIP will pick up the slack. With their libertarian and pro market ideas, I’m presuming they don’t strike you as a more suitable option.

The assorted commenters of liberal conspiracy did not cause and can not save your party from electoral oblivion, that is something you did to yourselves. As for the ascendance of UKIP, well, what the voting public wants it should get, good and hard.

18 That is the stupidest post on this thread. Why on earth would disgruntled lib dem voters, fed up with their parties drift to the right go and vote for an even more far right wing outfit? Makes no sense.

Ukip are irrelevant to the problems in the lib dems. But like Blair, Clegg will be financially well rewarded for his deceit.

#21 – That’s exactly my point. If LiberalConspiracy has always been “left of centre” then it is not a site about liberalism, it’s a site about socialist/social democratic ideas, and as such misleading.

Nonetheless I agree with you, the LibDems need to get their act together and remember what they’re supposed to stand for. I don’t care if they drift to the right economically because that isn’t why I voted for them, if I was a staunch leftist I would vote for staunch leftists.

#24 – Yet leftists on this site nonetheless stand to lose out by the demise of the LibDems. All those voters aren’t going to flood back to Labour, not after their deeply illiberal run in the last decade, and UKIP is in no way going to drag Labour into government via coalition like the LibDems might.

Yet leftists on this site nonetheless stand to lose out by the demise of the LibDems. All those voters aren’t going to flood back to Labour, not after their deeply illiberal run in the last decade, and UKIP is in no way going to drag Labour into government via coalition like the LibDems might.

Given what the lib dems apparently stand for once in government I’m not sure we’ll really notice much difference. Well, there’ll be more MP’s who are less keen on the EU, but given the EU’s behaviour of late, that might well be a good thing. Besides, Labour isn’t a left outfit anymore, we’re basically down to picking our favourite colour at election time now. UKIP’s purple ain’t it? Good enough colour for me.

Well, it is entirely possible that you will have to debate all that shite about who actually represents you,the English voter, without us interfering.

A Scot.

I’m guessing you might be a middle manager somewhere, possibly education sector? Classic example: you were told something would be bad idea and why it would be a bad idea. You ignored the advice, justified your position and went ahead anyway. Now it’s all gone wrong you’ve called a meeting to tell us all what’s gone wrong and why and how it’s now a bad idea.

Just go and stack some shelves and be happy with your lot.

welcome to our world
This how we the the British public have been treated for years by the political parties it doesn’t matter if they are in power in westminster or at a local level the only thing they follow is party political ideology it doesn’t matter if you’re a Conservative Liberal Democrat or labor, party mantra
comes before any sort of national interest
Nick clegg would have sold his soul to join the government

@Shatterface

#22

“Except that neither the Tories nor the Lib Dems were responsible for either ATOS or ESA.”

You’re wrong there of course; they weren’t responsible for the introduction of either ATOS or ESA, that is another stain Labour will carry for a very long time. But the Tories ARE responsible for them now, responsible for the way the DWP & ATOS are ramping up the pressure on the weakest in society; responsible for the web of misleading statements & outright lies issued by Grayling & IDS and perpetuated in certain areas of the right wing press.

The Lib Dems are not directly responsible but, by their inaction, they have made themselves complicit. As I said in my earlier post, the fact that does not seem to be what is causing Nick Barlow’s change of heart speaks volumes; his silence has drowned out his words.

We cannot allow the Tories to carry on in this vein, or we are all finished; so yes, there is a very clear electoral choice in this matter, but only if Labour have been prepared to learn by their mistakes & there are the 1st signs that they are acknowledging that.

Martin Niemoller said it best, but I’ll just give you part as I’m sure you can Google the rest.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
…..
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

“As it is, this government is harming the country, and it’s time to drastically change the plan”.

So Nick, after the thick end of two and a half years you’re only now realising what many of us knew on Day One of your poxy Coalition?

You made your bed – for the most self-serving of reasons (none of this crap about believing you’d be a counter-balance for the worst Rightist excesses – Clegg et al have invariably bent over and taken whatever the Tories have seen fit to give ‘em, purely to get a little taste of power) – and you and your party of frigging enablers deserve the political oblivion that’s coming your way.

Oh – and:

“Events have proven those to be in same category as Tony Blair being a pretty straight kind of guy”.

Do you seriously believe that you – a member of a party with a spineless turncoat like Clegg at the helm – are in any position to criticise Blair? Clegg has gone back on his word so many fucking times in the time he’s been Deputy PM that he makes Blair look like George Washington.

Dave H

“and as such misleading”

not really you only had to click on the about link.

“Liberal Conspiracy is a politics magazine and discussion site. It works in the form of a blog with multiple authors and several sections. Our aim is to re-invigorate the liberal-left in Britain through:

1. Having an intelligent conversation about liberal-left ideas and values
2. Campaigning for liberal-left policies and causes
3. Helping people get organise”

@ Dave H,

I agree with you, but you can’t blame Liberal Conspiracy for the use and abuse of the word ‘liberal’, as liberals of the old school have been complaining of the word’s redefinition since the days of top hats and massive sideburns.

Personally, as a libertarian, I can only hope that the kind of vociferous hatred from the left directed at the Lib Dems (e.g. @ 31, Andy implementing Godwin’s Law) and the sneering disdain from the Tories will lead to some kind of epiphany, and a vision of Richard Cobden and Herbert Spencer will appear before you all and bring you all back to free trade, laissez-faire and individual liberty.

@Richard Carey
#38

“Personally, as a libertarian, I can only hope that the kind of vociferous hatred from the left directed at the Lib Dems (e.g. @ 31, Andy implementing Godwin’s Law)…”

Vociferous hatred? Casual disdain and a little contemptuous pity, they are not worthy of my hatred.

As for implementing Godwin’s Law, I simply quoted Niemoller, I made no direct comparisons with Nazism. The philosophy of this Government has been to divide and rule, so the quotation seemed apt & appropriate.

Richard Carey

You accuse Andy of vociferous hatred,

contempt for the Lib Dems might be a more

accurate description.

We now know their priorities AV, Lords

reform, party financing etc and more boring

stuff.(none of which they have achieved)

And in return for nothing they have allowed

the poorest in this country to bear the

greatest burden.

@ 35 Richard Carey

“Personally, as a libertarian, I can only hope that the kind of vociferous hatred from the left directed at the Lib Dems (e.g. @ 31, Andy implementing Godwin’s Law) and the sneering disdain from the Tories will lead to some kind of epiphany, and a vision of Richard Cobden and Herbert Spencer will appear before you all and bring you all back to free trade, laissez-faire and individual liberty.”

Bring us BACK? I’m a liberal and I’ve never been about free trade or laissez-faire economics. I think you’re playing a pointless etymology game here, to be honest. The older meaning of a word is not automatically the “true” one. Indeed, we have “libertarian” to cover what you’re describing.

35 No such thing as libertarians. They are all fakes and liars. Even Ayn Rand, ended up on welfare.

No such thing as free trade either. All markets are rigged in some way. So you might as well tell us you believe in Father Christmas.

@ Chaise,

“I’m a liberal and I’ve never been about free trade or laissez-faire economics.”

Obviously you were born some time after “the days of top hats and massive sideburns” I mentioned @ 35. I’m not trying to play a ‘pointless etymology game’, and I think Dave H grasps the point I was making. You’ll see I was chiding him for complaining about Liberal Conspiracy’s name, so I’m aware the word’s meaning has ‘evolved’.

It’s relevance in this thread is to where the Lib Dems are going, and what’s going to happen if those who consider themselves left-wing and have been a large chunk of their support over recent years, wash their hands of the party. As I explained, I hope this leads what’s left of the Lib Dems to return to their long-abandoned position as a separate poll to (broadly speaking) socialism and conservatism, rather than as a mid-point between them.

As for free-trade and laissez-faire, even if you don’t support such things, you will I expect accept that these were central to the older liberalism, and that the justification for these policies was a liberal justification, that they were upheld as being to the benefit of the vast majority of the people, and specifically against the small number of powerful people who benefited from mercantilism and protectionism. I don’t ask you to throw aside your objections, only to accept that there is an argument that can be made *in good faith* for these things.

@ Sally,

I believe in justice too. You could tell me that doesn’t exist either, but I say; the more the better.

@ 40 Richard

Fair enough. I would like to see a genuinely liberal big party, although I think the Lib Dem brand is now tainted for at least a generation. Of course, I’d like a socialist liberal party, not a libertarian one.

And yes, I’m accepting of “good faith” libertarianism. I don’t agree with libertarians but I tend to quite like them. Their philosophy tends to be coherent, at least, and I respect the desire to improve individual freedoms. I just think that they go too far with it. Details available on request.

@ Chaise,

“Fair enough”

I noticed your comment elsewhere regarding this. There are worse phrases to overuse.

I’ll take the measured praise you offer with due respect. As for going too far, it’s usually in the realm of hypothetical debates that we can be accused of this, I would say. Also, I think we may seem more extreme than is really the case, due to drawing the dividing lines in different places between the state, society and the individual, and the responsibilities of each. The fact that we disagree that something should be against the law does not mean we condone it, or that we don’t think that society, rather than the state, should not take action against it, such as through a boycott or some such non-violent action. I’ll leave there, as I may be veering OT

@ 42 Richard

“I noticed your comment elsewhere regarding this. There are worse phrases to overuse.”

Heh. A good point.

“As for going too far, it’s usually in the realm of hypothetical debates that we can be accused of this, I would say. Also, I think we may seem more extreme than is really the case, due to drawing the dividing lines in different places between the state, society and the individual, and the responsibilities of each.”

I think the net has a lot to do with this. People in general tend to focus more on principles and less on pragmatism when they’re online. I won’t name-drop, but I’ve seen an example or two of this recently on other threads: people adopting a single principle and demanding it be followed to the exclusion of all competing moral considerations or practical issues. I’m sure I do it.

And also, of course, extreme voices are disproportionately loud online, if only because a lot of more moderate people can’t be bothered to argue with the internet. Libertarianism seems to suffer especially badly from this, as do feminism and both sides of the abortion and religion debates. I don’t know why this is. The point is that the nutters don’t represent everyone in their group.

“The fact that we disagree that something should be against the law does not mean we condone it, or that we don’t think that society, rather than the state, should not take action against it, such as through a boycott or some such non-violent action. ”

Yeah. Arrgh, it drives me up the wall when people don’t get this, or deliberately choose not to. Labour lost my vote in one local election when their pamphlet said that the Lib Dems (the only real local competition) were in favour of legalising heroin. I don’t think this is actually true, but whatever. The issue was that the pamphlet’s response to this alleged position was “We think that heroin is really dangerous and blah blah blah”. As if people want heroin legalised because they think it’s awesome and everyone should take it.

@ 35 Andy,

“Vociferous hatred? Casual disdain and a little contemptuous pity, they are not worthy of my hatred.”

I am happy to accept this edit – good alliteration

As for Godwin’s Law, fair enough, as Chaise would say. It was definitely close to the line.

I did not vote for your party at the last election….I have never taken the time to write in on any subject in my life before stumbling onto this website….the lib dems in my view are the only people who can save us now….not the trade unions…not labour…..for god sake remove the prop that’s keeping these evil people in their jobs and give us some hope…..do it soon, save the majority and probably save your party too