I’d just say, let’s worry about it when they deploy it.
It’s only water, and in serious roiting like 18 months ago, if it worked I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
Mobile and inventive rioters though probaly would be able to outrun it’s capacity to deter them and I would not support its use on the crowds of people who are often in the vicinity of rioting – watching on.
They would be the people who would get hosed down the most I bet as they are much easier targets than fast moving macho young men – who wouldn’t care about getting a soaking anyway.

But still, let them use it, and then we can critiscise their use of it.

The fact that they would have limited use, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have any use, the police hardly turned up during the riots two years, ago, their bosses were scared under Health and safety laws that if one of them had been killed, the boss wold have been prosecuted, as,unarmed police who don’t have bullet proof jackets, or the strength to go on an sort out the rioters, JNT that the police needed a lot more to stop them, and if water cannons is an option so be it, I take.it The London. Labour p arty is now not the one that said tough on crime 15 yeas ago,when it was winning elections,

Water cannon aren’t just big hosepipes, they can cause severe injuries. Until we can trust enough coppers to behave with proper restraint and discipline we shouldn’t have them. ( once we have such coppers we probably won’t need water cannon anyway.) http://thethirdestate.net/2010/12/the-truth-about-water-cannons/

3 cherub, take it you want police to stand back and let riots escalate like they did in 2011

News: “City workers riot in heat wave”

Ecoloons: “Think of the hosepipe ban!!!”

If Labour are so against water cannons why did they buy them for NI? And don’t say its because NI is a special case. Riots in NI are just the same as riots in London or elsewhere – groups of people demonstrating in a violent manner.

@4

Are those the only choices? Oh dear, I’ll have to think about that then.

#4
A slow response to the rioting wasn’t the only mistake by the met, and giving more powerful weapons in to such hands would only for easier and bigger mistakes.

damon: “I would not support its use on the crowds of people who are often in the vicinity of rioting – watching on.”

And that’s the problem – a water cannon is not a weapon of great accuracy.

For instance, if there are a bunch of people throwing stones within a demonstration, in most cases they are likely to be in among many peaceful protesters, who have done nothing wrong except attend a protest which has attracted more crazies than usual. In a riot that’s less likely, but still an issue.

Police armed with a water cannon will only be able to blast it in the general direction of trouble – and as others have said, these things don’t just make people wet, they hit with sufficient force to smash people off their feet.

You’re right they won’t have much deterrent effect on determined violent mobs – but the threat of using them will create a very well-founded fear among the public of being anywhere near the front of any peaceful protest, just in case someone else starts acting up and they get caught in the crossfire of a very inaccurate weapon.

I think that fear is highly likely to be exploited by the police (and ministers) to reduce the size of undesirable protests – i.e. they will announce water cannons may be deployed beforehand, to encourage those not angry enough to risk injury to stay at home. Afterwards authoritarians will justify any injuries to peaceful protesters by saying that they were warned and were stupid to attend.

8 but we’ll never know, unless the police accidentally killed 6 innocent people unlawfully , who knows what would have happened if the police had the tools to stop the rioters, as it is, they didn’t have the. Tos and 5 innocent people were killed by rioters, because the police didn’t have the ability to use power to stop them,

Don’t forget that the riots were triggered by the behaviour of the police towards the Duggan family.

11′ what reaction towards the Duggan family ,that there was a Chief superintendent to come out and talk to the family outside, the police had been warning, the gov’ts that the boredom in the area and lack of police resources was going boil over into riots months before hand, their was looting of plasma T.V.s straight after the riots started, d’you really feel those who sympathised with the. Duggan family went out and stole T.Vs straight away , as they felt the family had been badly treated,

Don’t forget that the riots were triggered by the behaviour of the police towards the Duggan family.

LC really should try to get to the bottom of arguments like this. But the people in charge of the website are more likely to put up a video by the ridiculous white rapper ‘Plan B’ as a way of explaination of the causes of the riots.
Duggan was a hood who got shot dead by the police because he was carrying a gun. That’s all it was about really. If you mess about with guns, then you can find the police will be stopping you and pointing their guns at you. They may shoot as they can be a bit trigger happy sometimes.
The resulting rioting was by people who were either just opportunistic, or had grievances against the wider society. And how the ”CV culture” that we have (and I don’t like it either) holds back young people who want a short cut to a well paying good job and don’t want to do a couple of years of proving themselves (to ”the man”) first. Their hip-hop meantality makes them feel only scorn about doing low paid low status jobs to build up their CV. That’s for losers and immigrants to many young people’s minds today.

As for the crowds of people around the serious rioters:
often these crowds are the ”lifeblood” of the rioters, as they can freely move about and then hide amongst them. The police often want the streets cleared – like in Tottenham that first night.
In a lot of countries, the police just use tear gas to get rid of everyone. So water cannon aren’t as bad as that. Personally, I think the police (in cases of serious rioting like in 2011) should use plastic bullets or their modern equivalent. There are ‘bean bag’ kind of rounds I believe. Something that hurts like hell but doesn’t kill. Ot some taser guns or something.
Some of the rioters were pure scum and got away with it and I’d like to see the police catch more of them.
In Northern Ireland, the rioters take the micky (look at the youtubes) and the police have a ”duty of care” not to hurt them. So they just sit in their Loandrovers and take it.

@SadbutMadLad #6:

If Labour are so against water cannons why did they buy them for NI? And don’t say its because NI is a special case. Riots in NI are just the same as riots in London or elsewhere – groups of people demonstrating in a violent manner

I never thought I’d say this, but Gove is right; Lads today have no conception of recent UK history.

@13 Damon

My argument was based upon this study: http://www.madmobsandenglishmen.com/

It does stand up quite well. Unlike the rabble at Spiked.

15 the link to the book mad mobs and Englishman, twists facts to suit it’s writer, that the 81. Brixton riot started as ‘ it was seen that the police caused he death of Michael bailey” yes that myth went around about the police killing Michael bailey,so they rioted, then a couple of days later it came out that he’d been stabbed by another black lad, and the police were trying to resuscitate him, when he died on them, that the Tottehnam riot of 85 happened afte the concerns of the public were ignored and they then rioted, seeing as cars were siphoned for petrol and the local Uniate an Co-op said all their milk bottles had gone missing in the weeks before hand it’s pretty obvious that,that didn’t happen over night, even David Lammy in the book says it was just opportunism in 2011′ and having. The Telegraph to quote it as a good book, isn’t really a great endorsement,

Cherub @15, my views on why people rioted are all my own.
Just from what I see and know. There are people who just love to riot. When I was a teenager I used to get off on a bit of crowd disorder at footabll matches (Palace-Brighton matches from thirty years for example).
Today in big urban English cities, the most common group of gang-like people is found in the ”hip-hop” street culture. It’s infectious and seductive. It basicly corrupts young children’s minds and they are drawn into it by their older peers. It makes young men unemployable.
Who want’s to employ people who have a culture of ripping off anything they can get their hands on?
Here in Gloucester you can see the result of decades of the welfare culture. It is a bit of a depressed town anyway, but it’s chav central when you open your eyes and look. There are unemployed ”weed smoking” hoodie low-lifes all over the place. There are some (unfortunately) in the very building I’m living in. The young guys who manage to get on Disability Living Allowance by being a bit alcoholic, and then exagerating this problem when they go for their DLA assesment. I heard one unpleasant guy bragging about it in my building just a couple of days ago. The kind of bloke who buys and sells (stolen) phones for a fiver or tenner. There are loads of people like this just in Gloucester. You can see them every time you go into the job centre where they’re signing on.
Here most of these are white – and in the larger cities they’re people like Mark Duggan.
Anyway, I could go on, but here is probably not the place.

Just btw, two years (on midsummer’s day) I was in Belfast, and went down to see some rioting in the Loyalist Newtownards Road one evening. The crowds of spectators definitely made it possible for the actual young rioters to operate. As they moved around within the crowd of people who were only looking on, and these people were generally sympathetic to the rioters and cheered and laughed about some of the wilder attacks on the police, like jumping up on police Landrovers and kicking off the blue lights and bashing the vehicles with sticks and poles.
People in the crowd were even cheering them on.
They were all scum bags IMO, as the police were trying to stop the Protestant crowd from attacking Catholic the houses of Short Strand. I would have welcomed water cannon use against the whole lot of them actually, rioters and supporters.

Duggan was a hood who got shot dead by the police because he was carrying a gun. That’s all it was about really. If you mess about with guns, then you can find the police will be stopping you and pointing their guns at you. They may shoot as they can be a bit trigger happy sometimes.

The police aren’t supposed to execute people and they are supposed to be accountable.

I don’t think police firearms officers are trigger-happy – the stats don’t support it. But when things go wrong – they rarely go wrong – they go very wrong. The press are initially misinformed by police and the IPCC; an inquest is delayed or prevented; people resign from positions of authority because they disagree with the way the case has been handled; pathologists disagree with each other and/or with official accounts.

This isn’t supposed to be how a mature democracy operates; we do not abide by the standards we have set.

18 uk liberty the press weren’t misinformed by th police and the IPCC, over Duggan it was just the IPCC, the reason the inquiry has been delayed was down to defence solicitors,

I wrote inquest not inquiry and I was writing in more general terms than specifically about Duggan, although it mostly applies to Duggan with the exception of which particular organisation misinformed the press this particular instance.

I don’t know what defence solicitors you’re talking about.

4. John Reid

They ‘stood back’ because there weren’t enough of them – a water cannon won’t help at all.

Wandsworth had 8 riot officers to defend the borough – yes 8 – now go and work out how many police are required to man and protect a water canon (because you definitely don’t want it ‘occupied’)

Like most feeble minded people – your feardrives you to irrationality. In 2011 water cannon would have been absolutely useless – your just supporting it because it makes you ‘feel safer’.

These times were not made for people like you – only the fearless and the reasoned will survive this one.

10. John Reid

5 innocent people were not killed by rioters – where do you get your information from John? – back of a cornflake packet?

More people died during the riots due to lack of housing than killed by rioters – a little perspective might be nice.

13. damon

“Duggan was a hood who got shot dead by the police”

Knew him personally did you?

No – didn’t think so – so where exactly did you get this ‘knowledge’ from?

I heard that the Guildford 4 were ‘terrorists’

People like you are just scared – scared of the world your arrogance has created.

You will reap what you have sown.

21 I meant that there should be more riot pice,so they can protect a water cannon

22 don’t understand about homeless people dieting in the riots info
Please

as for 5 people dieting in the riot, 3 were run over by a stilen car, one died in a fire and one died after being mugged and knocked to the ground for his wallet, the kid who did it was found guilty of manslaughter ,it was widely reported on the news, but not on the back of cereal packets.

@ Cherub

“Water cannon aren’t just big hosepipes, they can cause severe injuries. ”

Just so – although soaking people is bad enough if you then force them to stand in the cold for hours.

Water cannon are a bad idea. They’re not very discriminate, they’re one of those “non-lethal” options that are dangerous because they feel safe to use, and they seem to me to be exactly the sort of thing that turns a boisterous protest with a few bad apples into a full-scale riot when people suddenly find themselves under attack from the police.

Let’s not buy it and spend the money on more cops instead.