Sunny seems to be hitting the nail on the head for me. I’m not a racist but support UKIP purely because no other party seems to want to get a grip on immigration or the disadvantages of being in Europe. So far Nick Clegg’s argument for staying in Europe is fear based and focussed on the disadvantages of leaving. If someone started to discuss the advantages of staying (and I mean real advantages, not embellished ones) rather than just calling UKIP racist all the time, I might listen to that. However, such vicious and one-sided anti UKIP propaganda is easily seen as just that. Propaganda. I need to hear clear, reasoned arguments that stand up to more than a little scrutiny. So far, no one seems to be making them, just mainstream politicians clearly twisting statements to mean something worse than it actually was and having tantrum. The public are not so stupid that they cannot see through such obvious and transparent dirty tricks, which just defeats the object of playing them. Politicians are all just way too blinkered to play a good game these days.

Ed Miliband has ruled out a Referendum on the EU. So has Nick Clegg – although the LibDems actually had a petition on their website calling for just that before the General Election.

I believe the British people should have the right to decide if they want to be in the EU and largely governed from Brussels. We never gave Parliament a mandate to sign us up to a political union.

But Clegg and Miliband want to deny us the right to self-determination because THEY want us in the EU.

I won’t vote for a Party that intends denying me my democratic rights.

No Referendum = no vote. And I will stick with UKIP.

I agree with much of what you say, Sunny, but there are still issues the Left need to resolve with themselves before we tackle the rise of the far Right.

First of all, we need to admit to ourselves these people represent a shift to the far Right. For too long we have pretended to ourselves that Farage is a ‘cheeky chappie’ or at best a clown who happens to attract other clowns and halfwits to the fold. Well that is partly true, but scratch the surface and there is a deeply unpleasant undercurrent within the ranks of supporters. The odd tweet and facebook post brings this out now and again, but dig a little deeper and you find that your average UKIPer is a deeply racist, homophobic and sexist person. You could make a case that many of these people (especially on the Right) are disaffected from mainstream’s Parties move toward progressive politics. I get the strong feeling that many of UKIP supporters want a ‘purer Tory Party’, hard right, less Politically Correct Party, and even less socially Liberal Party. You never need to go too far into a UKIP politics to find a white supremacist, Climate Change denier, anti abortionist and/or a eugenicist under the ‘well it is more complicated than that’ veneer. The number of times I have ‘managed’ to get an admission that disabled/poor or ethnic minority groups should be sterilised ‘for their own good’ means that I am less amused and more genuinely concerned that we are witnessing a rebirth of NAZI ideology spreading throughout Europe. Not gas chamber within the next five years, but we are seeing a general scapegoating and collective punishment of unfortunate people within this Country and the rest of the Continent.

Secondly, we need to tackle the immigration debate head on. The way UKIP ARE talking about immigration IS racist. They are not in the slightest bit interested in restricting immigration from Australia, New Zealand, America or Canada. Nor are they interested in curtailing immigration from South Africa or ‘white flight’ from anywhere else in Africa. I have heard nothing about the number of French or Germans who have come to live here either. They restrict their ire to certain groups, Eastern Europeans and Black/Brown people. I take on board what you say about telling racist people they are racists will hardly shame them, but let us not allow them to get away with this ‘its not racist’ theme.

Labour’s record on EU need to be exposed. The Left have to acknowledge that it did leave the door open mid 2000s. However, what the Left need to do is explain that better. We need to explain that this was on the behest of some of the biggest employers in the Country. These people where not abucted to this Country and forced to work in salt mines. One of the most frustrating aspects of the immigration debate is the free ride that people like Tesco, Sainsbury’s ASDA et al have beeen getting. We should be highlighting that these companies have been cynically driving down wages using cheap labour. Which brings me to third point.

UKIP claim to be the ‘anti establishment Party’ well that is all well and good, but why not question Farage on what he would actually do? Let us see him questioned on the curtailment of ‘British workers rights’, would he support a living wage for example? Would he support stronger employment law? Given the Christian heritage of this Country would he support enshrining Easter Monday/Good Friday/Christmas day into legally enforceable bank holidays? I wonder how disaffected working class people will find his defending big business against the poor? Which rather neatly brings me to my last point.

Like it or not, the Left have abandoned millions of people to their political fate. Miliband’s disastrous, cack handed attempt to address the outrage of the zero hour contract has exposed in sharp relief of UKIPs appeal. It has became obvious that the Left have neatly disconnected itself from those on the bottom rungs of the social/economic/political ladder. Not only has this created apathy (check the turnout figures of the poorest constituencies and wards in the Country), but this apathy has created a political vacuum which the UKIP anti establishment message has rushed to fill. Twenty six million people coming for your job is a line that resonates when you have zero job protection.

If the Left learn anything from the last Centaury, it surely is that economic hard times cause disharmony and unrest which is easily exploited by those who would ignite a fire.

I agree with you prognosis that the UKIP supporters wants to shake up the Westminster tribe (as if other people don’t!).

But I equally do not buy the argument that UKIP are being “ferociously challenged” by the press.

The day when restrictions on movement of Romanian citizens in the EU was lifted shows this. One Romanian bloke “swamped” the UK by coming through a largely empty customs gate. Press coverage claimed that Romanian planes were fully booked (later shown to be lies). BBC and ITV led on “a bloke gets off a plane” story, giving free time for UKIP to preach their anti-immigration message, only to be “balanced” by an anti-immigration Tory minister.

It is only recently that the press have begun to challenge UKIP on what hypocrites they are. The swivel eyed loons trope, is just a joke for the media, but when the media tell these stories, the subtext is clear “aren’t they colourful and interesting” as opposed to, “aren’t they corrupt and not fit for public office”.

Wow, somebody gets it. Go Sunny!

People are bored of being sneered at by the Westminster consensus.. you can’t say that, you can’t think this, you shouldn’t smoke those, stop drinking them, eating these makes you fat… you’re a bad parent, you read bad newspapers and watch terrible tv shows… you’re really not very bright, you’re racist, your opinions count for little and you need us nice clever enlightened middle class people to tell you how to live your lives. That is, pretty much, the message.

The Tories and Labour seem united in their contempt for the choices of almost everyone, and their messengers at the Mail and the Guardian echo this.. and whilst the Mail might be transparent about it, anyone who thinks that the patronising ‘oh won’t somebody think of the most vulnerable’ shtick from the Groan actually engages with, rather than alienates, those people should probably check the circulation numbers.

UKIP are popular because they listen to people and echo back what they hear. The others listen to each other, and lecture the rest of us.

This doesn’t make UKIP a good thing, but this is supposed to be a democracy and if there are popular opinions which the ‘establishment’ just tries to shout down, then isn’t it right that people look for a party who seems to respect them?

The message to ‘the left’ is that simply trying to shut down unpalatable opinions never works.. you have to win the battle of ideas eventually.

sorry but I totally disagree. Engaging with UKIP supporters and even candidates over the past week has shown that they fit generally into three types; the fanatics, the true believers, and the ignorant ( and I’m not using that pejoratively). The fanatics cannot and will not be reasoned with – you undoubtedly came across people like this in the Tea Party in the US. No argument will change their opinions and they will not listen to reason. The True Believers innocently believe in the party’s ideology but lack knowledge of what the policies are or of their own membership. The ignorant simply have no idea what the EU is or does. They have believed the message of fear and the propaganda spread by the party. Whilst the first group have no hope, the other two groups can be engaged, can be challenged, and they will question their beliefs if shown the truth. They can be rocked in their resolve. We must engage with them but no amount of cold facts or arguments will work. Clegg tried this and failed miserably. We must give the sub agenda of the party exposure and force it into the light to discourage the undecided. We have to go toe to toe and challenge the beliefs of the true believers and inform the ignorant. And we must endure the insults, abuse and threats of the fanatics and expose them for what they are. This is a serious fight, and comparisons to the rise of national socialism are not hyperbole or absurd but a real threat.

Jim , how wrong you are on labour actually being honest about immigration. The EU themselves have said that there are no controls or caps as that goes against the membership rules. So the only way they can be honest is by saying, sorry chps we cant do anything about immigration from the Eu because we are control by Brussels. But you know and I know they wont do that.
We now cannot even ask how long anyone is staying so we can keep a check on our numbers. As for calling us the far right I think you will find that 20 years ago there was a shift in politics, this was mainly borne out of the marxist ideologies of political correctness and anyone mentioning immigrations was tarred racist. The shift was what you call the far right (UKIP) was actually middle ground politics, and now the debate is so narrow and stiffled that its stops anyone being able to have true debate.
As for the working rights of Britains, the EU now control working rights. And you mention labour leaving behind millions of ex labour voters yes they did because they moved from that arena not the voters, Farage does fill that gap because you cant get a ciggy paper between the other three parties. Do you know why, because they want us in the EU and we are controlled by the EU.

Michael, that is typical. So you expect us to change your views and when we don’t you resort to name calling. So what do we call you because you wont listen to our argument.
Hypocrisy at best, double standards at worst. How about you listening to us about not wanting to be governed by undemocratic EU. There is a bigger world outside the EU, read the Brexit report.

As a service engineer I work in factories and buildings all over the country. The talk and complaints of ordinary everyday people in the workplace and the pubs is always Immigration and the EU and how the main parties just wont listen. They say they understand and then do nothing. We are fed up with the PC brigade telling us what we can say and think and the rabid lefties who rant at us will never understand that the average working class person does not think as they do and are more right wing in their beliefs than they could possibly immagine

“That does not mean that Labour and the Left try and outflank UKIP from the right. The Tories are trying that but it won’t work. It means better engagement at a community level, making our politics more open and making it less unrepresentative. It means having more MPs who can connect people rather than great at sounding polished on Newsnight”.

Almost there. It actually means getting people into parliament who have not done a PPE or some such degree at Oxford or Cambridge.

It means getting people who haven’t spent their whole “working” lives in the Westminster village.

Perhaps a condition of eligibility to parliament should be 3 years of public service? Forces, Police, Fire Brigade, NHS, Prison service, Civil Service, local Govt. (Councillor or other elected local official) something where you have contributed to the nation and have learned a little about what life is like outside of the London/Westminster bubble? Perhaps a maximum 2 terms as well? Can’t see it happening though, Tukeys & Christmas…

To many of our political class are just that, a class. He’ll, they’re even starting political dynasties in some parties, 3 generations etc.

Jim. When you say “your average UKIPer is a deeply racist, homophobic and sexist person”, are you talking about the 31% of the population that (according to YouGov at least) will be voting UKIP?

Don’t you think that the kind of crass generalisations that you’re spouting about nearly 1 in 3 people in the UK are extremely offensive, and exactly the sort of inane and brainless comment that UKIP are seizing on to prove their point.

Moron.

This is soft peddling nonsense. If you vote UKIP you have thrown your lot with an party that seeks to blame the UK’s many challenges on foreigners and immigrants. To my mind that makes you a either a fool or a racist.

UKIP are the middle England Taliban (indeed Farage described them as insurgence) that crosses traditional party lines. Like the muslim extremist counterparts they see the challenges facing them throw a very narrow prism (liberal elites, foreigners and immigrants). The solution to this crisis of stupidity is a combination of carrot and stick. If part of that stick is labeling the people that vote for bigots as stupid and bigoted then I support!

This is soft peddling nonsense. If you vote UKIP you have thrown your lot with an party that seeks to blame the UK’s many challenges on foreigners and immigrants. To my mind that makes you a either uninformed, a fool or a racist.

UKIP are the middle England Taliban (indeed Farage described them as insurgence) which crosses traditional party lines. Like their muslim extremist counterparts they see the challenges facing them through a very narrow prism (in the case of UKIP liberal elites, foreigners and immigrants). The solution to this crisis of stupidity is a combination of carrot and stick. If part of that stick is labeling the people that vote for bigots as stupid and bigoted then I support!

(Reposted after spotting a hideous typo)

Hundal:

Some Britons have latched on to UKIP as a way to express their discontent with the political system – but the problem is the disconnected and unrepresentative political establishment, not the media.

Whatever happened to: ‘It’s the economy, stupid’?

The ‘disconnect’ from ‘Westminster politics’ might be more symptom than cause, when compared to the impact of globalisation and the recession. Dealing with any kind of democratic deficit (whether local, national or European) matters, but so do jobs and income.

Ukip has two ‘big ideas’ when it comes to the economy: leaving the EU and banning immigration (since Farage announced a policy review, in fact they are probably the only two ideas they have altogether). Whether together or separately these two ideas supposedly will solve everything else, despite overlooking, for example, the ‘lump of labour’ fallacy.

Hence Ukip’s idea of ‘getting a grip’ on immigration is: ‘no migrants’ – or at least no black/brown ones, or maybe no poor ones, or no non-English speaking ones. It’s unclear how that’s going to sit with multi-national companies (whether banks or otherwise) – unless the idea is that poor Brits will do the low-paid low-skilled jobs for rich globalised overlords. The Tories fell into this trap with their pledge to cap immigration which didn’t take account of: (a) emigration from the UK and (b) overseas students (in Ukip-speak, the UK has some of the best universities in the world – but presumably only British people should benefit from them). Labour tried to develop a a mechanism regulate the flow of migrants – but that’s harder to explain than a simplistic model of blaming foreigners for the lack of jobs and thinking that’s a strategy for full employment.

Likewise, leaving the EU supposedly leaves the UK ‘free’ to pursue its own economic course – even though (a) it’s currently able to trade globally within the EU and (b) leaving the EU does not mean the UK is ‘free’ from EU regulation…which it will no longer be able to influence from outside.

This is, perhaps, where the racism, sexism and petty nationalism of Ukip converge with its economic thinking: it’s Cameron ‘global race’ (i.e,. to the bottom) without the pretence. Farage has admitted that if the UK economy does crater on leaving the EU, then so be it – presumably he’ll be okay even if most his voters might suffer. Plus, of course, it probably won’t be Farage who has to deal with a ‘UK Exit’ and its aftermath.

In short (and apologies for the long post), Sunny’s right to argue that playing ‘Gotcha!’ over racist tweets isn’t enough, but challenging Ukip is more than just a matter of a few more ‘authentic-sounding’ MPs. Those MPs will need something they can ‘sell’ in terms of the economy.

There are 10 million smokers in this country. The other parties all applaud that pubs, cafes and even private members clubs, staffed by their own, smoking, members cannot choose to permit smoking. Even those who honestly believe this is based on scientific evidence have no excuse for supporting the EU Tobacco Products Directive which will become law in the UK in 2016 and will outlaw the use of ecigs as we vapers now experience it. UKIP opposed the TPD and Nigel Farage made a video about ecigs. You can Google it. I can’t imagine Cameron or Miliband doing that. They are going along with the TPD, taking care not to get involved, knowing full well that tens of thousands of future lung cancer deaths are being prevented by current and future ecig use. This will potentially affect 10 million people. They care more about the profits of the Pharmaceutical Industry, whose nicotine business is being destroyed by ecigs, than the health of UK citizens. I was disappointed by Nick Clegg’s ignorance of ecigs when asked, but he never hides his smoking habit and chose a skip full of Silk Cut as his Desert Island Discs luxury, so he gets some credit.

I think that TV really loves Nigel Farage; the papers are another matter.

redpesto, I don’t think its just the economy.

Its also a debate about social integration

https://liberalconspiracy.org/2014/01/07/id-much-rather-talk-about-the-social-impact-of-immigration-too/

Thanks for replying, Sunny. In your link your argue that the left has ‘won’ the debate on the ‘social front’ – yet Ukip still seem set to dominate the EU elections with Farage chuntering about not trusting Romanian neighbours. Also it’s hard *not* to call out Ukip for racism if the debate is on this front, especially if some its members are channelling Enoch Powell.

If I have Ukip’s thinking correct, leaving the EU and stopping immigration (the two ‘basic’ policies) ‘solves’ the problem of social integration by stopping people migrating to the UK in the first place. What they plan to do with the actually-existing multicultural Britain is less clear.

It might be possible to offer a counter-narrative of how Britain has been through successive waves of migration before – and been all the better for it despite the nay-sayers, xenophobes and racists. Miliband is perhaps the only party leader who could pull this off from personal experience (hence the attempted monstering of his dad by the Mail).

I guess I largely support what redpesto is saying.

After all, if people “blame the immigrants” what are they blaming them for?

– “Taking our jobs”
– “Lowering wages”
– “Taking the council houses”
– “Taking the school places”
– “Taking the appointments at the GP”

These are typical answers. The solution isn’t to get into arguments with the personal experiences of people (not only does that not work, but the statistical aggregates used by Portes and others have some serious flaws in addressing local variations).

Rather, the solution is (as UKIP does) promise some actual solutions to the problems. Instead of taking the UKIP route (blame the immigrants and promise to stop them) how about actually promising to fix the shortages, provide some policies for jobs and increased wages and providing more good council housing and school places and GPs etc.

It’s all a bit left-wing for Sunny perhaps, but it would probably work if Labour could get serious about it.

As for the EU, perhaps we do need a referendum as maybe it would smoke out the money in the business sector that should be opposing Paul Sykes, The Daily Mail et al. but has been happy to sit tight in a Faustian bargain for neoliberal economic policies…

Many people dislike the political class. UKIP gives those people the opportunity to put the boot in. I don’t think there is much of an identifiable ideology within UKIP, more a sentiment that the political status quo needs shaking up, and a desire to piss off Cameron, Clegg and Miliband all at the same time.

<<<<>>>

Your suggestions are STUPID PROMISES which cannot be fulfilled. While we cannot control our borders there will always be shortages of jobs, homes , school places, and the NHS will be under strain.

How stupid are you people if you think any Government can plan properly for an ever growing ever churning population?

Any well run organisation needs PLANNING and STABILITY. Equally so does a country.

You Globalists are brainwashed fools, so obsessed with open borders and opposing the bogey man of ‘racism’ that every other desirable goal can be sacrificed for this.
Open borders and a welfare state are
incompatible goals and open borders and a happy stable community are incompatible too. No wonder British children are the most unhappy in Europe.

David Goodhart recognised this in his 2004 essay The Discomfort of Strangers.

What is wrong with you people? Why do you want to ethnically replace the British people? We do not ‘need’ immigration. Period.

Ooops that was in reply to metatone.

You’ve got it so wrong it almost beggars belief, people vote for UKIP because they want CHANGE, change from the metropolitan, liberal-leaning, self-appointed arbiters of our future.
You messed up, omg, did you mess up, in almost every way possible while you were in government, your policies may yet to see the UK damaged beyond repair so we’ll vote UKIP in ever increasing numbers because perhaps if we’re going down, we’re taking you with us.
Every single war that has ever been fought has been because of ethnic differences, every country that has had terrible civil wars did so because they couldn’t live together due to tribal differences yet Labour in some sort of insanity decided that the UK was going to buck this trend instead we today the British people have never been more divided.
I remember how you lot gloated over the death of a very old lady with dementia, calling her ‘divisive’ yet in comparison to Labour’s policies Thatcher was a saint, you have divided what was a united country and we will NEVER forgive you.

The elephant in the room is that people of non-indigenous-British ethnicity want to have it both ways. They want to promote their own ethnicity while denying that right to people with British ethnicity.

If projections continue as they are a present, people of British ethnicity, and forefathers dating back centuries, will be a minority in their own homeland within a matter of decades.

You will not get anywhere in connecting with communities until you acknowledge this as being a valid concern and problem, and perhaps acknowledging the double standards of many people of non-British ethnicity being involved in anti-white (if not overtly intentional, that is the effect) British leftist political parties.

Ethnic “minorities” (certainly not minorities on a global sense) need to show more humility towards the British communities that have welcomed them, and realise that while their families may have made the decision to make that migration decision, those of British ethnicity have not made that decision. While non-British ethnicities have another place to go where they can be amongst their own culture and kin, the working class indigenous have nowhere else to go.

People like Lenny Henry are overstepping the mark by complaining about what is one of the most inclusive places in the world, and all that results in doing so is a test of the increasingly short patience of the host communities.

Great article Sunny. I’m a libertarian UKIP voter, and although not totally onboard UKIP you have it exactly right.

The main reasons I vote UKIP are:

1. I hate the mainstream media. I find the mudslinging nature of politics and established parties abhorrent. The double standards, relentless coverage of minority issues, and general idea that the world resembles an episode of life on mars. Totally out of touch with reality.

2. All EU migration to this country has done little for lower skilled workers, and again the cover story that British people are lazy etc, jobs brits dont want.

3. EU is corrupt. Ireland. For gods sake. No means no…..Ukraine? Funding neo Nazis while painting moderates like UKIP as such? Shame on this organisation.

4. Tangible bad effects, friend raped by polish criminal in UK. Sister can’t get council house. All council housing to refugees first, if you know anyone here you live with them, otherwise making homeless deliberately. That’s all indigenous people back of the list. Nephews can’t go to the school my sister and I went too, its a specialist for foreign languages. Our kids packed into the really rough school.

The biggest problem is the mainstream’s ignorant refusal that their is a problem for real people. They think it’s just Murdoch and the Mail making things up, because immigration doesn’t affect them in that way.

It’s unforgivable, but when concerns are raised, the media round on people, denounce them utterly as neo Nazisetc. If they say a banned word, whatever the context, they strip them of their job and career, put their family at risk etc. Laws are in place to prevent criticism of other communities activities. These people call those who disagree fascists whilst being as authoritarian as any despotic regime, left or right.

The reality doesn’t fit what we were promised, so reality is bludgeoned out with Orwellian means.

Very, very few UKIPers are racist. We hate the manipulation and lies.

Remember, this project at its heart has many functions and one was to rub the rights nose in it.

Now the far right is on the rise. Well done. If the left had stuck to representing the working class, instead of obsessing over race and sexuality then none of this would have happened.

The left used to be cool but it’s tetchy these days, obsessed with fringe issues and has become very, very bossy and authoritarian. The EU represents that in spades and that’s what I’m fighting.